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If I go first, what is stopping me from getting 1 Scout Bike Squad, sergent has combi-melta and melta-bomb.

Infiltrate 18", Scout move to just 12", move 12", shoot melta (2D6 on penetration) at Land Raider then assault land raider with melta-bomb (no miss, damage is 8+2D6).

Math hammer for at least wrecking of LR:

Shooting: 2/3 (BS4) * 0.58 (probability of rolling >=7 for 2D6) * 1/2 (probability of rolling 4+, NOTE: AP1) = 0.193
Assaulting: 0.58 (probability of rolling >= 7 for 2D6) * 1/3 (probability of rollling 5+) = 0.193
Total = 1 - (1 - 0.193)*(1 - 0.193) = 0.35

Okay okay, may be not a Land Raider (or Dreadnought), but almost any other vehicles with back armor 10 will not last. The land raider will definitely be stunned or similar though.

NOTE: I think I should write a small app that calculate this.

Don't forget that the bikers have krak as well, so against anything AV12 or less on the rear means that you get a few more S6 grenade hits in.

-Matt

Agreed. My mathhammer is too weak :(.

The huge flaw here is the assumption that someone is going to let you infiltrate anywhere near a Land Raider. Against this kind of unit you are clearly going to put infantry or even Rhinos around your Land Raider, and not have it hanging right on the edge of the deployment zone where it can be easily targeted. All I have to do is put the Land Raider 6" back from the units which are forcing you to stay 12" away and you won't do anything.

Standard AV10 rear vehicles are more common but really the same applies, I'm not letting that unit anywhere near a really heavy hitting vehicle, the best you might get is a single long ranged melta shot. I'll happily feed you a 35pt Rhino for your 100+pt Scout Biker unit, against a good player you should not be getting close enough to get something valuable.

You might catch someone off guard and get lucky, I suppose. Not something to bank on...It might be better to use your scout bikers in a different manner. I really like them, I think they're one of the most underrated units in the codex. Astartes Grenade Launchers hooo!

It depends on your opponent's army setup though. I frequently see land raiders be put out on their own as they are assumed to be robust enough to deal with most threats. Also if you are playing against soemone who doesn't know precisely what they're facing they might ignore the bikers as a threat.

The first turn melta assault is a good trick. Unless I am mistaken, you can turbo boost on your scout move. Unless that LR is bubble wrapped your getting there

I look as such units as a HK missle with better odds but cost more and give up a KP

personally I would take a LSS with scouts instead of scout bikers 10 times out of 10.

Also, the melta can still wreck the LR on a glance.

thats all well and good but whats the point in having a can opener if you cant eat what's inside (though its true, if you can kick a LR turn 1 it'll be a big help but something like a rhino full of zerkers isnt a good trade off)

If it were me I'd feel better if my scouts had another unit with them for support

I used this exact setup once. 3 bikes accually popped a LR but got eaten by the terminators inside. Still, was cheaper than my storm w/melta and Sgt. w/PF, melta bombs... It seams to be a slightly cheaper throw away squad; however the Storm draws a few more shots.

DPBellathrom wrote:thats all well and good but whats the point in having a can opener if you cant eat what's inside

I can think of quite a few times when you would want to crack open the can. Lets take a stormchicken full of DCA's. Cracking open that ride means that the DCA's cannot be assault an effective 20". Another example would be a KFF BW. Cracking that bad boy before the game throws a wrench in the plans of the ork player.

As you can see there are a lot of different uses for such a sacrificial unit. I am sure that you also can determine that the RoI (return on investment) of such a unit drops dramatically. One of them is good. 3 of them just wont' find a full value.

Agreed.

The other virtue of the scout bikers over the scouts in LS Storm is that you're only sacrificing one KP.

Against most vehicles,

the suicidal scout bike
Pros
- They are only 1 kill point
- They cost less
Cons
- Possibility of dangerous terrain
- Less attacks

The suicidal Land Speeder Storm will be a good choice:
Pros
- Move through terrain
- More attacks
Cons
- Cost more
- 2 Kill points

Keep in mind that Scout Bikers have both Infiltrate and Scouts-- so they are 100% guaranteed to be able to charge on turn one if the opponent deploys on table! This, in my eyes, makes them immediately better than Land Speeder Storm guys, especially since they generally cost less, are better in both shooting and assault, and concede fewer Kill Points. Their only real disadvantage compared to the Storm is in a Vulkan army (where the LSS MM becomes much more reliable, as does taking a single combi-melta on the Sarge) or in scoring objectives-- but a LSS is a really nonideal unit for scoring objectives anyway in most cases!

Fetterkey wrote:Keep in mind that Scout Bikers have both Infiltrate and Scouts-- so they are 100% guaranteed to be able to charge on turn one if the opponent deploys on table! This, in my eyes, makes them immediately better than Land Speeder Storm guys, especially since they generally cost less, are better in both shooting and assault, and concede fewer Kill Points. Their only real disadvantage compared to the Storm is in a Vulkan army (where the LSS MM becomes much more reliable, as does taking a single combi-melta on the Sarge) or in scoring objectives-- but a LSS is a really nonideal unit for scoring objectives anyway in most cases!

LSS can also infiltrate and scout.

Actually, LSS have Scouts but not Infiltrate.

One point to consider is what happens if you dont go first. You have less than a 1/2 chance of going first (as you might be seized).

In this case the land speeder storm edges out as it can make a very good objective grabbing unit, which can co e on the board fro reserve to limit the rounds it's shot at

labmouse42 wrote:One point to consider is what happens if you dont go first. You have less than a 1/2 chance of going first (as you might be seized).

In this case the land speeder storm edges out as it can make a very good objective grabbing unit, which can co e on the board fro reserve to limit the rounds it's shot at

Only if it comes in late in the game-- I personally find LSS much too fragile to use in claiming objectives otherwise.

Fetterkey wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:One point to consider is what happens if you dont go first. You have less than a 1/2 chance of going first (as you might be seized).

In this case the land speeder storm edges out as it can make a very good objective grabbing unit, which can co e on the board fro reserve to limit the rounds it's shot at

Only if it comes in late in the game-- I personally find LSS much too fragile to use in claiming objectives otherwise.

Yet as a comparison to scout bikes, would you agree that the LSS option is infinity better at scoring, as the scout bikes cannot.

That's true, and I will admit that I once won a game thanks to an LSS coming in onto an unclaimed objective on turn 5. But claiming objectives isn't what I take such units for-- if I wanted to do that, I would take more Tactical Marines or snipers with camo-cloaks. I feel the Scout Bikers accomplish the primary goal of this sort of unit-- killing enemy vehicles and backfield units in CC-- more successfully than normal Scouts in Land Speeder Storms, and since they're less risky to boot (1 slot instead of 2, lower cost, fewer KPs), I think the Scout Bikers are really a better option here.

Powerguy wrote:The huge flaw here is the assumption that someone is going to let you infiltrate anywhere near a Land Raider. Against this kind of unit you are clearly going to put infantry or even Rhinos around your Land Raider, and not have it hanging right on the edge of the deployment zone where it can be easily targeted. All I have to do is put the Land Raider 6" back from the units which are forcing you to stay 12" away and you won't do anything.

Standard AV10 rear vehicles are more common but really the same applies, I'm not letting that unit anywhere near a really heavy hitting vehicle, the best you might get is a single long ranged melta shot. I'll happily feed you a 35pt Rhino for your 100+pt Scout Biker unit, against a good player you should not be getting close enough to get something valuable.

Anywhere near the land raider is about 36", good luck stopping an infiltrate followed by a 24" scout move turbo boost. Turn 1 assault range is 18". Bubblewrap risks stranding a land raider behind rhino wrecks/craters, and you have to circle the wagons to prevent the 24" scout move from getting the scout bikes within 18" of the side/rear of the land raider. The only safe place is in reserve or the back of the deployment zone, either way the scout bikes just earned their points back.

Also watch out for demo vets in a vendetta doing the same dirty trick. Not as mobile because they lack infiltrate, but they doo carry 10 melta bombs.

I use scout speeders a lot and while everyone always says "well you might be able to pull that off except i would do this..." and then mentions bubble wrapping etc. it still works for me in about half of my games. Even when i face the same players who know i am going to scout forward and destroy a key vehicle in their line, it still happens. The thing is, anyone can say "well i would just do this" but in reality the game has so many angles that when you do one thing it opens up a whole slew of other possibilities. bubble wrap your landraider and my mulitmelta will likely still be able to reach it. If not there are usually other key vehicle within easy reach. No strategy is foolproof.

Either way as shadenfreud pointed out, the moment you start doing things differently you are playing my game. i am controlling the battlefield without a shot fired.

One of my favorite tournis i competed in i played against a real rotter of a human. he started out the game telling me he was going to wipe me off the board, and he wouldnt consider it a win unless he did. I replied that i was going to vaporize his LR with my scout speeder. He laughed. Turn 2 started with me smiling smuggly and a large crater where his LR had been. even knowing my intention .

Or he could simply keep the Land Raider in reserve and completely negate the tactic...

...except that then he's starting his LR (and its contents) off the table and risking them not arriving until late. He's putting himself on the back foot. Not as bad as getting it blown up, but still a disadvantage.

I'm running 3, all with grenade launchers and the vet with bombs, and cluster mines.
The mines are just fun, and the grenade launchers let you take pot shots from range when you don't go first.
The option to toss out 3 S3 blasts doesn't totally suck...

If I didn't love baal's and land speeders, I'd take a 2nd unit.

-Matt

KplKeegan wrote:Or he could simply keep the Land Raider in reserve and completely negate the tactic...

If scouts cause 500+ points of land raider+ contents to go into reserve they have already performed their job. Games are won and lost during army deployment

HawaiiMatt wrote:I'm running 3, all with grenade launchers and the vet with bombs, and cluster mines.
The mines are just fun, and the grenade launchers let you take pot shots from range when you don't go first.
The option to toss out 3 S3 blasts doesn't totally suck...

If I didn't love baal's and land speeders, I'd take a 2nd unit.

-Matt

I was singing the praises of vanilla codex scout bikers. BA scout bikes are different story because they are far superior to vanilla scout bikers.

It's very easy to get a priest within 6" of scout bikes when they assault, especially with a storm raven's 24" flat out and/or a rhino/razorback's 18" flat out. Also due to the size of the scout bike's base Power fists are S9 and base attacks are S5 making them very deadly against rear armor 10.

Against AV14: IMO 3 S9 auto hits>1 melta bomb auto hit. It's 50% chance to pen plus 50% chance to glance>58.3% chance to pen plus 13.9% chance to glance.
Against AV10: 2 S5 autohits>1S6 autohit, it is a math hammer fact, not opinion.
Against AV10: 3 S9 autohits>>>1 melta bomb auto hit

Bottom line is S9 changes the game when dealing with the scout bike sergeant.

If the BA player goes 2nd scout bikes are T5 3++ turbo boost cover 4+ FNP screening models that cost 2 points per model more than an assault marine. I'm a huge fan of scout bike grunts, and a full squad of 10 will cause most mechanized opponents to reserve their entire army instead of going 2nd if they lose that roll off. IMO scout bike screens are absolutely essential to protect DOA jump infantry that start on the board, and they are good unit in any BA army.

Yeah, power fist (25 points) with priest (50+ points) is better than melta bombs (5pts).

I like the power fist and all, but IMO, that's a big bike squad load out, where as I'm running the small cheaper version.

-Matt

Fetterkey wrote:Actually, LSS have Scouts but not Infiltrate.

Okay, I was wrong. but the first turn charge threat from an LSS is still almost always guaranteed.

An LSS scout moving flat out doesn't get a cover save, does it?

Another advantage of bikes, though I'm not sure you'll ever want to attempt this when going second.

Almarine wrote:An LSS scout moving flat out doesn't get a cover save, does it?

Another advantage of bikes, though I'm not sure you'll ever want to attempt this when going second.

Check your rulebook, page 71.A skimmer that has moved flat-out in its last movement phase has a cover save of 4+.