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Okay, first I am making a Custodes Army (have models & FW stuff). I plan to use the Grey Knights codex.

Then, after reading tons of fluff, I realized they (AC) are better. I found the original Rogue Trader era stats for (tactical) custodes -
Adeptus Custodes RT (Page 140)
M 4 WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 5 A 2 Ld 8 Int 8 Cl 8 WP 8
and cpmpared them to the space marines at that time too
Space Marine Rt
M 4 WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 Ld 8 Int 8 Cl 8 WP 8

Looking at the 5th edition SM stats & GK stats, I relaized AC stats would be like this -
If using SM codex, conversion would make them -
Adeptus Custodes 5th Ed. tacticals
WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 5 A 2 Ld 8(/9) Sv 3+

sooo....with a SM codex -
+1ws, +1bs, +1w, +1i, & +1a on the stat lines (each and every entry). & to be fair I figured out there is a 20% point increase on costs...

With a GK codex -
+1bs, +1w, +1i, & +1a & a 15% point cost increase....

I'll make a "fun to play test" list for my gaming group to see how real AC would fair in battle....

Thoughts?

GK codex - HQ - example -
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Grandmaster of the Custodes:
WS:7 BS:7 S:5 T:5 W:5 I:6 A:6 Ld:10 Sv:2+/3++ Points: 330
Wargear: Custode lance (STR 10 vs demons and psykers), Custode Shield + Storm bolter, Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades
Special Rules: Independent Character, The Grand Strategy, Psychic Mastery 2, Eternal Warrior
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Psychic Communion, Cleansing Flame
Lord of Titan - Takes Paladins as troops.



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sm codex example -
grandmaster
WS7 BS6 S4 T4 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 Sv3+

Custodes should have a higher leadership. 9 at least. Also, are Custodes Psykers?

McNinja wrote:Custodes should have a higher leadership. 9 at least. Also, are Custodes Psykers?

I don't believe Custodes are psykers... but it's recommended that you play them using Grey Knights so go figure.

Convenient how you didn't compare their stat line from Rogue Trader to Grey Knights. Since Grey Knights have a current stat line for direct comparison, you'd be forced to use a lower powered one than the one you propose.

I have a guy down at my local GW who sculpts, and he made custodians and the Emperor, obviously counting them as Paladins and the Emperor is....

Yeah, the Paladin's w/ nemesis force halberds pretty much fit the Custodes just fine, I don't know why you're concerned that the GK book can't do them properly.

Assault Cannons for Psycannons and Heavy Flamers for Incinerators, just spear and shoulder mounted. No need to have Psilincers.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=145540
Or you could use this.

Though if you read the comments further down that fandex...

DarknessEternal wrote:Convenient how you didn't compare their stat line from Rogue Trader to Grey Knights. Since Grey Knights have a current stat line for direct comparison, you'd be forced to use a lower powered one than the one you propose.

But that wouldn't meet our herp-derp expectations of how much more powerful a Custodian should be!

Deadshot wrote:Though if you read the comments further down that fandex...

Read further though.....

Using pure GW facts & stats from rogue trader, I was able to calculate out that a custodian model costs...

way back sm in rogue were 23 pts each & custodes were 36...

So add 13pts to every entry!

krazynadechukr wrote:Using pure GW facts & stats from rogue trader, I was able to calculate out that a custodian model costs...

way back sm in rogue were 23 pts each & custodes were 36...

So add 13pts to every entry!

I'm not sure it works that way... I mean, didn't termies cost 200 points or something like that back then? Its not a 1:1 conversion from system to system

chaos0xomega wrote:

I'm not sure it works that way... I mean, didn't termies cost 200 points or something like that back then? Its not a 1:1 conversion from system to system

I see your point....However, since there is no Legio Custodes official codex, keeping it as simple as I can, it is the closest thing to an actual Games Workshop codex...using old stats & new stats to find common denominators...

But your point did bring to light the error of my calculation!

If Space Marines (tacticals) were 23 points back in 1990 (2nd edition) & Custodes were 36 points, then we figure out the % decrease of Space Marines from 1990 to the current edition...(from 23 to 15) is a 33% decrease, so making Custodes actually 24 points each. Then taking the marine & custodes difference of 9 (24-15), that'd be the point cost we add to each entry!

for these stats for a basic custodes trooper!
WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 5 A 2 Ld 8

SM codex -
+1ws, +1bs, +1w, +1i, & +1a on the stat lines (each and every entry) add 9 pts per model to points in codex (which means each + is worth 1.8 pts)
With a GK codex -
+1bs, +1w, +1i, & +1a & add 7 pts to points to each model

So Cutodes should cost 25ppm? Is this is PA or TDA?

That is putting far too much faith in a statline written for a completely different game.

Deadshot wrote:So Cutodes should cost 25ppm? Is this is PA or TDA?

Either way it's complete fail for the points. Considering all the bonuses, in PA alone you're looking at closer to 40pts minimum for this unfluffy monster.

Bingo. GK Paladins at 45pts a model, but minus the psyker bits. Drop ATSKNF for Fearless. Drop Preferred Enemy Daemons for MC weapons. Keep thwe Aegis, cause they have blessed armour and stuff. Lose Brotherhhod of Psykers rule. Their weapons are just Power Weapons with the bonuses and the Daemonbane rule. Don't know if Daemonbane and Psykout weapopns should be kept but YMMV.

Sounds easier just to make them Paladins but with the loss of TDA, back to PA @ -10pts. They can still get their initiative bonus from having Halberds and gain options to master-craft. Though I stand by my unfluffy comment above, going into deeper territory by swapping over special rules likely adds more complexity than what the OP wanted.

Maybe not PA but maybe Artificer?

Why not just use the rules for AC from the SOT campaign made by GW?

Asherian Command wrote:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=145540
Or you could use this.

You can use anything, but where did this come from? Was it based off GW or just purely pulled from ones arse?


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Deadshot wrote:Bingo. GK Paladins at 45pts a model, but minus the psyker bits. Drop ATSKNF for Fearless. Drop Preferred Enemy Daemons for MC weapons. Keep thwe Aegis, cause they have blessed armour and stuff. Lose Brotherhhod of Psykers rule. Their weapons are just Power Weapons with the bonuses and the Daemonbane rule. Don't know if Daemonbane and Psykout weapopns should be kept but YMMV.

What I am saying is this -
using GK codex....a GK Paladin at 45pts a model, custodes would be 52pts each & you get this for the extra points -
+1bs, +1w, +1i, & +1a
Everything else remains the same.....(perks & abilities...)

Just a simpler way to play test a Custodes at my local GW center.....

Paladins are 55ppm not 45, I was suggesting losing some psychic and anti Daemonstuff to save points and leave the rest.

So really you want

WS 5
BS 5
S 4
T 4
W3
I 5(7 for Halberd)
3 attacks
Ld 9
Sv 2+/5++

With BoP and everything? For 62ppm?

See, this is why my idea of JUST adding 7pts per model (using the GK codex) for a custodes army was WAY to simple...

Folks want to complicate it!

If I made a real Custodes Codex, following the fluff, they'd all have artificer armor, master crafted weapons, revive themselves from death, cause fear in fearless foes, be able to shoot seperate targets, each model could issue a challenge in battle, be able to infiltrate, and have access to ALL armory item from ANY Imperial codex... (all that is based off the fluff & novels regarding Custodes)...Imagine fighting that!


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All I was doing was taking the last official Custodes stats & points from 1st & 2nd edition, figuring out how Space Marine stats chenged from 2nd to 5th, with that "formula" for stats & points (only), that is how I came up with a close to real GW stat & point system for Custodes....

KISS theory....

The simplest method would be just to use Custodes as Grey Knights without adding any rules. You'll get a lot of less hassle for it. After all, you are comparing out-dated rules, where Custodians had the exact same profile as Inquisitors.

krazynadechukr wrote:You can use anything, but where did this come from? Was it based off GW or just purely pulled from ones arse?

Basically, yes he made it up. Fair play to him if people actually use it but it looks like a poorly researched attempt to do Grey Knights+ to me, which the game could do without.

krazynadechukr wrote:
All I was doing was taking the last official Custodes stats & points from 1st & 2nd edition, figuring out how Space Marine stats chenged from 2nd to 5th, with that "formula" for stats & points (only), that is how I came up with a close to real GW stat & point system for Custodes....

And that was totally ludicrous.

Besides having the same name for stats, stat lines mean entirely different things to the game than they did then.

DarknessEternal wrote:And that was totally ludicrous.

Besides having the same name for stats, stat lines mean entirely different things to the game than they did then.

Uh? Ludicrous? Hm.

Space Marine 2nd edition was
23pts each model
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 Ld 8 Sv 3+

Space Marine now is
15pts each model
WS = 4 BS = 4 S = 4 T = 4 W = 1 I = 4 A = 1 Ld = 8 Sv = 3+

(23 down to 15 is a 33% decrease in point cost)

Hm. Same stats, lower cost for 5th edition...

Tactical Custodes in 2nd edition were
36 points each
WS 5 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 5 A 2 Ld 8 Int 8 Sv 3+

So it would stand to reason that the stats for Custodes would have remained the same, but points would have gone down...each Custodes would be 24 pts each...

Simple math based right off GW itself...


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Grey Knights are the closest to Custodes & I plan on using that codex of course....But Custodes are a tad better then GKs....

krazynadechukr wrote:See, this is why my idea of JUST adding 7pts per model (using the GK codex) for a custodes army was WAY to simple...

Folks want to complicate it!

If I made a real Custodes Codex, following the fluff, they'd all have...

Well, your problem there is that none of the armies in 40k represent their fluff very effectively. Space Marines especially are relatively underpowered compared to the things the fluff indicates that they're capable of. And don't get me started on Eldar...

I think what the above posters were trying to do is provide a reasonable (IMO) alternative than the one you're providing. Comparing point costs/differences and stats of units written for a dramatically different version of the game and applying those differences to the modern incarnation of the same units might seem well reasoned, but truly doesn't apply.

You might as well look at the differences in the gear available to Marines and Custodes in the Rogue Trader book and revise their wargear prices to reflect the inconsistency. GK are already an elite army made of the best of the best, a core perception of the Custodes as well. Using them as a basis for comparison is accurate and using the current rules/stats/costs to make the comparison is accurate as well. Instead of focusing on stats alone, changing playstyle by switching out army-specific abilities for more appropriate ones to the Custodes' style makes sense.

Their tactics favor one-on-many situations and they don't fight as a group. Deadshot's GK Paladins sounds pretty close to the mark...

krazynadechukr wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=145540
Or you could use this.

You can use anything, but where did this come from? Was it based off GW or just purely pulled from ones arse?

actually it was a team of people that created it. But yes from their arse in someway shape or form.

You have to take into account wargear as well as point cost when calculating the point cost for a custom unit. The point costing for wargear IMO seems to have fluctuated quite a bit. In earlier editions (including early 5th), a power weapon would cost you 10-15 whereas in the GK book, GKSS seem to get force weapons and other bonuses for 5pts over a regular marine (which makes it hard to consider GK for point costing purposes)

What sort of wargear were Custodes equipped with during RT? If they were something like power weapons, they’d probably cost around 35-50pts per model (with a 2W profile). Keep in mind though that this estimate is not taking into account special abilities or synergy.

Personally I’d downgrade their wound and ballistic skill profiles by 1. Assuming the guardian spears are represented as ordinary power weapons and the unit does not have access to ranged weapons upgrades (like melta/flamer/plasma), you could cost them at 25pts each (30pts each if they have access to melta/flamers/missile launchers etc). This makes their profile look like:
Tactical Custodes
25 points each
WS 5 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 5 A 2 Ld 8 Int 8 Sv 3+
Wargear: Power weapon, bolter, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades

With ranged weapons upgrades:
Tactical Custodes
30 points each
WS 5 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 5 A 2 Ld 8 Int 8 Sv 3+
Wargear: Power weapon, bolter, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades
Options: Up to 2 models may swap their bolters for the following
• Flamer – free
• Meltagun – 5pts
• Plasma gun – 10pts