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Maybe something like ap4-5/maybe rending?, I mean come on, they are CHAIN-SWORDS that spin at 10000rpm, they're significant enough in the novels (and Space Marine game too) so why can't they have abit of stopping power on tabletop?


I know 6th Ed. apparently CCW are ap6 but that isn't quite good enough for the good ol' tried & tested chainsword.


Thoughts?

AP 4 or AP 5 and Rending on a 6, I agree. In the fluff Chainswords are brutal instruments of death, but the hands of a 5th Ed Guardsman it is only a vanilla ST3 CC weapon? As in a Guardsman could hit someone with a ripping tearing chainsaw and expect the same effective result as punching with a bare fist?



Looking forward to 5th Ed taking it's place in history alongside Windows Vista and the Yugo.

Exactly! It's just silly, it needs to be FEARED

It needs to make opposing players think twice before running their infantry into a group of TEN CHAINSWORD WIELDING SPACE MARINES.

Let's be honest if it happened in one of the novels the enemy would simply be cut to shreds in seconds!

I agree with Ap4, they need to be priced differently to a knife. Still standard issue for marines, but a squad based upgrade for those guardsmen that take ccws.

For the record, chainswords in dark heresy have penetration 2, roughly equivalent to cutting through light flakweave-- flak armor still provides some protection against it. Even Astartes chainswords only have pen 4 and that's because of monomolecular edged teeth (an upgrade that can apply to non-Astartes chainswords, as well), which is the same as bolt weapons and only enough to get through Flak Armor, carapace still provides some protection against it.

I'd say AP5 at the most given this.

Orlanth wrote:I agree with Ap4, they need to be priced differently to a knife. Still standard issue for marines, but a squad based upgrade for those guardsmen that take ccws.

Only if you increase the price of Marines to account for it.

If you give crude-edge chain-swords AP5 or AP6, how would you classify mono-molecular edged swords? What about weapons which are more suited for combat and less suited for parades?
(Then again, advanced melee weapons are laughable in an environment where 9mm bullets were obsoleted some millennia ago)

Monomolecular swords would be equal to one jump in AP for the weapon (so if standard weapons are AP6, then monomolecular would be AP5). The primary advantage of a chainsword in dark heresy is "Tearing", IE it rolls two dice and picks the highest for damage-- so basically equivalent to rerolling to-wound for tabletop.

Indeed they can do more damage than power weapons because of this.

That said, bolters are pretty over the top in Deathwatch as well...

I'm just trying to picture it fluff-wise, a bloke who's 7ft tall with a huge ripping chainsword repeatedly hacking you with it. I'm not sure anything short of what necrons have for skin would stand a chance against one, just saying haha

Ethancol wrote:I'm just trying to picture it fluff-wise, a bloke who's 7ft tall with a huge ripping chainsword repeatedly hacking you with it. I'm not sure anything short of what necrons have for skin would stand a chance against one, just saying haha

A commissar with a power sword, parrying the chainsword and breaking it with the power field before chopping the marine's head off with the riposte.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:That said, bolters are pretty over the top in Deathwatch as well...

Bolters in deathwatch got retconned to be weaker. The old version are the overpowered movie marines, while the new, weaker versions are accurate-to-fluff marines.

Melissia wrote:

Ethancol wrote:I'm just trying to picture it fluff-wise, a bloke who's 7ft tall with a huge ripping chainsword repeatedly hacking you with it. I'm not sure anything short of what necrons have for skin would stand a chance against one, just saying haha

A commissar with a power sword, parrying the chainsword and breaking it with the power field before chopping the marine's head off with the riposte.

BRUTE STRENGTH WHICH CAN CRRRRRUSH WALLS VS. Man who likes trenchcoats and carries a friendly-fire pistol.



WHO WINS?


YOU DECIDE!

This may surprise you, but most commissars are excellent duelists. It's a popular hobby amongst people who carry swords and pistols in 40k, but for commissars, it's also an extension of their combat training, which is excellent, on par with Astartes even.

Chainswords are, honestly, a ludicrous idea for a weapon. Particularly since in at least some fluff, they're supposedly gas-powered. . .

But leaving that aside, you could justify giving chainswords Rending if you wanted to increase the cost of every unit equipped with them by 3-4 points per model. I wouldn't say they should get an AP value, though; chewing through a solid plate of metal or ceramic is actually going to be something a chain-weapon is USUALLY bad at; most strikes would just skate off the surface. It's when the teeth manage to catch a projection or the edge of a plate that they'll dig in and (assuming the teeth are harder than the armor) chew through it.

I actually think a re-roll on a failed to-wound roll of 1 or something would be better. Because the main benefit of a chainsword is that it does more damage to biological targets as its wounds are far more vicious.

Melissia wrote:I actually think a re-roll on a failed to-wound roll of 1 or something would be better. Because the main benefit of a chainsword is that it does more damage to biological targets as its wounds are far more vicious.

I agree with the reroll on a failed to wound roll of 1. I feel that a chainsword, if it hits, is going to to some damage, and for it to do the measly damage equivalent to a 1 (which is autofail) doesn't really tie in with the lore. So at least giving a reroll will give it that much more oomph - especially with assault marines

How many points are you willing to pay for this upgrade?

How much do tyranids pay for their reroll to wound on a failed roll of 1?

To hit? ~2 ppm on average. To wound? They don't have it. They have poisoned, which is ~1-5ppm

chrisrawr wrote:To hit? ~2 ppm on average. To wound? They don't have it. They have poisoned, which is ~1-5ppm

I think it should be higher for marines tho. Since your only putting it on a limited number of models (and ones which are likely better at CC) than tyranids, who are more of a swarm army, so the cost should be lessened for them compared to a marine army.

I think reroll to-wound rolls would be fine, while making it only get the bonus to extra attacks if wielded in pairs. Kind of like the non-power weapon version of a lightning claw, so it makes sense rules wise. (Deep cuts from rumored 6th ed)

So basicly, you have the option to either use it as a regular ccw, in which you would get a bonus with say a pistol, OR you can use it like a lightning claw, granting rerolls to wounds, but it becomes 'coarse' to borrow from the rumored 6th ed, where like powerfists and lightning claws you need 2 for a bonus attack.

This way you can try to add chainsword rules into the game without too much impact on point values. I would also have this apply to 'Astartes' chainswords. Normal guardsmen, who dont get chainswords paired with a pistol, would only benefit from this rule. Perhaps for guardsmen, make the free chainswords get an upgrade to 'Astartes' chainswords for a point cost.

The average guardsman has a CCW, not a chainsword.

The average guardsman has a CCW, not a chainsword.

ah, good! I assumed the ccw was the chainsword, but I do know what they say about assumptions.

Guardsman CCW are usually just regular combat knives.

I'd say chainswords get reroll wounds on a 1, paying ~3ppm would be OK for that, I'd say.

Let's look at what we're paying for, here

On your average 10-man assault squad, you've got 9 chainswords and a power fist, for about 250 points.

Against MEQ on the charge, you get 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds, and 2.25 failed saves. Rerolling 1's gets you 8.75 wounds, which is 2.916r failed saves.

I am not willing to pay anything for this upgrade because it is A) something that fits, and B) of almost negligible benefit because the units that make the most use of chainswords will be tac marines and assault marines, one of which is just housing for heavy weapons and the other of which is just housing for power fists.

Although I'm still skeptical of the "leak", I wouldn't mind the idea of chainswords and chainaxes getting some extra kick... Especially because lots of my boys models have chainswords. Of course, they'd actually have to write something into the ork codex, but I'd totally go for a "Choppa Gang".

Honestly, I don't think a minor benefit should be restricted ONLY to chainswords. There are plenty of weapons that have just as much justification for some kind of AP benefit; in particular, like TheHarlequin, I'm thinking of the chainaxes that Berzerkers use and the chain-edged choppas that are common on Ork models. Giving a benefit, even a small one, of this kind ONLY to Space Marines seems. . . unnecessary. It isn't like Space Marines in all their many incarnations don't get enough love already.

Here's what I would propose; create a category of Heavy (or perhaps Piercing) Close-Combat Weapons, or something similar, which have the Rending USR. Let Assault Squads, most MEQ Elite units and certain other close-combat units (Berzerkers, Ork Boyz and Nobz, perhaps Hellions, other such units) purchase them for +3-5 points per model. If you want Assault Squads/Berzerkers/other units usually armed with chain-weapons to have them basic, bump the cost up a little; 20 or 21 ppm for Assault Squads, 24 ppm for Berzerkers. That's fluffy and a definite power boost, as well.

chrisrawr wrote:
I am not willing to pay anything for this upgrade

Then you can't have it and it's a bad rule.

No arbitrary power increases without cost increases.

DarknessEternal wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:
I am not willing to pay anything for this upgrade

Then you can't have it and it's a bad rule.

No arbitrary power increases without cost increases.

This would be fine except for the fact that you're implying the game is perfectly balanced.

Edit: Rather, if the game was perfectly balanced, your statement would be easy to agree with. It isn't, and this change is a step in the right direction - making infantry, especially units such as tactical marines, more effective overall is a good step away from avspam.

The leaked 6th edition rule set gives all CCWs an Ap of 6. That will be perfectly fine for Chainswords.

Looks like we can soon make a tiny little list of upgrades here. Although I'd like to add that the highly sophisticated monomolecular edged chainswords which the Striking Scorpions use add 1 point of strength.