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I read that Draigo attacked Mortarion and carved the name of the Grey Knight Grandmaster Mortarion killed on his heart?

1 - Was this encounter detailed in a Black Library Book?

2 - I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.

1) This is only mentioned in the GK codex

2) It never mentioned Mortarion being killed so it's safe to believe he is still around.

It is given precisely 4 lines in the codex, as Mat Ward doesn't want to explain how a space marine, even a feth-hardcore one, is able to overcome a Daemon Primarch for long enough to tattoo things into his internal organs.

It's in the GK codex pg 15.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:1) This is only mentioned in the GK codex

2) It never mentioned Mortarion being killed so it's safe to believe he is still around.

It said he escaped in the same paragraph.

Kairos wrote:I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.

I'd be pissed as well if some punk came over to scribble stuff on my organs.

Gems such as these seem to become more common these days, don't they? The SW 'dex contained one or two hilarious things as well. Like that "let's walk through a space whale" stuff.

Lynata wrote:

Kairos wrote:I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.

I'd be pissed as well if some punk came over to scribble stuff on my organs.

Gems such as these seem to become more common these days, don't they? The SW 'dex contained one or two hilarious things as well. Like that "let's walk through a space whale" stuff.

It's the art of Worfing at it's very finest. Writers create a character, and think "oh, I need to show how hardcore they are" so they have them casually slap around a pre-existing hardass without bothering to give details.
Never mind that often what makes things seem heroic is the effort said heroes put into their deeds. The amount of description given here makes it almost seem like Draigo did it in between sips from a cup of nice,
warm, slightly lemony Earl Grey tea.

Very true. And all done in the name of "EPIC". Like some sort of angry god one needs to appease.

Not that it would be 40k alone that suffers from this trend...

True, true.
Hence the term "Worfing."
Or is it "Whorfing?" Hmmm... damn.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:True, true.
Hence the term "Worfing."
Or is it "Whorfing?" Hmmm... damn.

Is it wierd that when I read this I heard it in stewie griffins voice?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:True, true.
Hence the term "Worfing."
Or is it "Whorfing?" Hmmm... damn.

Is it wierd that when I read this I heard it in stewie griffins voice?

Nope.
Actually, it makes me rather pleased for some reason.

Draigo carries (supposed) the Emperor's gene seed, and if the Emperor really protects thos with faith, then no one that has fallen to Chaos can stand before him, not even a Primarch.

Face it, the only reason GKs are so tough is because they're is so few of them, they have a few big wins but the IOM takes a lot of losses overall. Just wait till the Emperor ascends into full God, then you really will have a lot of fluff to hate on.

Mortarion is a daemon.

No matter what Draigo did to his corpse, it doesn't "kill" him. It, at worst, sends him home.

I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.

When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.

I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.

When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.

I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart

That would actually be a great deal more reasonable, but I would still like to hear the full story told, rather than a mere 4 or so lines. Let's be honest, a fight with a major canon character such as a Daemon Primarch should take precedence over Draigo's grudge with Beaky the Lord of Change any day.

Lynata wrote:

Kairos wrote:I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.

I'd be pissed as well if some punk came over to scribble stuff on my organs.

Gems such as these seem to become more common these days, don't they? The SW 'dex contained one or two hilarious things as well. Like that "let's walk through a space whale" stuff.

I don't really have a problem with the SW fluff, but that particular bit was really strange.

Yes, i find it quite odd that that fight only gets 4 lines. i find it even odder, though, that doing such a thing is made to sound incredibly easy.

Kairos wrote:
1 - Was this encounter detailed in a Black Library Book?

It's in Grey Knight 5'th edition codex, the Draigo page.

2 - I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.

He is alive with his heart violated. Of course he is pissed off.

I think that I should add in that Mortarion was never a superb fighter and I'm sure he lost a duel at some point to a member of either his or another legion.

Also, it should be noted that he is a daemon; something which Draigo has had centuries to combat and being a Grey Knight, is pure anathema to anything daemonic.

In addition, Mortarion had just defeated a Grandmaster in 1 on 1 combat, I'm sure he would be severely weakened from his fight with said Grandmaster, something which Draigo would have easily been able to exploit and may explain why Draigo defeated him so "easily".

There's always an explanation, if you look deep enough.

Iranna.

It never happened. The 40k universe works so much better if both the loyal and traitor primarchs remain as background figures. There's a reason that GW 'lost' all the loyal ones and had kept the traitors bottled up in the Eye of Terror being all emo.

If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

daveNYC wrote:It never happened. The 40k universe works so much better if both the loyal and traitor primarchs remain as background figures. There's a reason that GW 'lost' all the loyal ones and had kept the traitors bottled up in the Eye of Terror being all emo.

If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

One slight problem with your answer: it did actually happen.

I suggest that instead of people screaming "cheese! Impossible to beat a daemon primarch in CC!!!" they look at the context of which it is written and then realise that yes, it is entirely possible and indeed, realistic.

Iranna.

daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.

Iranna wrote:

daveNYC wrote:It never happened. The 40k universe works so much better if both the loyal and traitor primarchs remain as background figures. There's a reason that GW 'lost' all the loyal ones and had kept the traitors bottled up in the Eye of Terror being all emo.

If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

One slight problem with your answer: it did actually happen.

I suggest that instead of people screaming "cheese! Impossible to beat a daemon primarch in CC!!!" they look at the context of which it is written and then realise that yes, it is entirely possible and indeed, realistic.

Iranna.

Ward doesn't do context. Nor, which is unfortunate to the theory posted higher in the thread, does he do metaphor. What he does do is the Rule of Cool and Taking it To Eleven. Which is great, because that's what 40k runs on, but he always seems to dial things up to the point where they just don't make any sense anymore.

And one of the key points of a daemon-primarch should be that they can't be beaten. The good guys can sacrifice themselves and somehow manage to take the primarch with them, but the primarch should never be just beaten. What sort of 10,000 year old, chaos infused, demi-god, unholy terror is there that can be taken out by a highly trained transhuman (Emperor's geneseed or no).

The focus on the term Worfing isn't that it makes the victor look awesome, it's that it cheapens and degrades the character that is being Worfed. Avatars are supposed to be walking iron skinned, magma blooded, manifestations of the Eldar god of murder. Pretty impressive until you remember the bit where Calgar just punches one to death. Hard to take as seriously after that. Same thing for Mortarion, he's the chosen champion of Nurgle, the immortal power of decay fused with a being created to be humanity's champion by the Emperor himself. One of the twenty strongest beings every in existance in this galaxy, fallen into darkness and become stronger because of it. And he got beat up and vandalized by single Grey Knight because he was winded after fighting the guy's boss.

daveNYC wrote: Which is great, because that's what 40k runs on, but he always seems to dial things up to the point where they just don't make any sense anymore.

I wonder if we could say "dialing it up to twelve" in such cases. Or rather: breaking the knob.

I think it's obvious we have some sort of "inflation of epicness" going on. Could be a generational thing, though. As I mentioned earlier, I've noticed this in various franchises lately.

daveNYC wrote:

Ward doesn't do context. Nor, which is unfortunate to the theory posted higher in the thread, does he do metaphor. What he does do is the Rule of Cool and Taking it To Eleven. Which is great, because that's what 40k runs on, but he always seems to dial things up to the point where they just don't make any sense anymore.

And one of the key points of a daemon-primarch should be that they can't be beaten. The good guys can sacrifice themselves and somehow manage to take the primarch with them, but the primarch should never be just beaten. What sort of 10,000 year old, chaos infused, demi-god, unholy terror is there that can be taken out by a highly trained transhuman (Emperor's geneseed or no).

The focus on the term Worfing isn't that it makes the victor look awesome, it's that it cheapens and degrades the character that is being Worfed. Avatars are supposed to be walking iron skinned, magma blooded, manifestations of the Eldar god of murder. Pretty impressive until you remember the bit where Calgar just punches one to death. Hard to take as seriously after that. Same thing for Mortarion, he's the chosen champion of Nurgle, the immortal power of decay fused with a being created to be humanity's champion by the Emperor himself. One of the twenty strongest beings every in existance in this galaxy, fallen into darkness and become stronger because of it. And he got beat up and vandalized by single Grey Knight because he was winded after fighting the guy's boss.

Simply bashing Matt Ward does not validate your point I'm afraid.

Like I said earlier, in the context of the story, Mortarian would have been severely weakened by the previous Grandmaster and that is why Draigo would have been able to defeat him. At the height of his powers yes, Mortarion probably would have smashed Draigo into the ground however, you're lucky if he was half as powerful as normal after his previous duel.

No, one of the key points of a daemon-primarch is that they are immortal, not unbeatable. As DarknessEternal wrote, Angron has been defeated many-a-time by the Grey Knights and he was quite possibly the most skilled hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs.

Avatars are shards of a God yes, however, they are just that. Broken pieces. They contain but a fraction of Khaine's power and as such, can be defeated by mortal foes.

He may be Nurgle's chosen, however, that doesn't make him an awesome fighter. Nurgle is synonymous with resilience, not battle-prowess. As I mentioned earlier, Mortarion never really was much of a fighter. He could put up a fight sure, but compared to the likes of Angron, Horus and even Fulgrim, he wasn't so impressive. So act as though a Grandmaster would be of no match to a Daemon-Primarch of Mortarion's calibre fluff-wise. These are quite possibly the most experienced and talented of all individuals in the Imperium, honed for centuries and for some, millennia. I'm quite sure he'd be able to do more than "wind" Mortarion.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:I think that I should add in that Mortarion was never a superb fighter and I'm sure he lost a duel at some point to a member of either his or another legion.

Also, it should be noted that he is a daemon; something which Draigo has had centuries to combat and being a Grey Knight, is pure anathema to anything daemonic.

In addition, Mortarion had just defeated a Grandmaster in 1 on 1 combat, I'm sure he would be severely weakened from his fight with said Grandmaster, something which Draigo would have easily been able to exploit and may explain why Draigo defeated him so "easily".

There's always an explanation, if you look deep enough.

Iranna.

It's really best left alone, like that other thing on P.15....

Buuut, it doesn't say that the previous combat was one on one... and in fact suggests otherwise given that Mortarion has a stated bodyguard: the first part of this line needs to be accounted for in your reading:-

'Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.'

OK, Mortarion's poor at fighting (?) so being a clever chap he has a bodyguard who's unusually good at fighting... who having been smashed aside... sulk (?) whilst our Hero's having his artistic fun with their charge? Daemon Primarchs must be very forgiving of their minions' failure.

I'd agree that it is intended to be precisely literal though (there'll be no misremembering, 'Chinese whispers' observer who survived the GKs' extermination of all witnesses after the battle); though it being the usual (possible) 'fish story' would be the only thing that could redeem the tale....

tsz52 wrote:
It's really best left alone, like that other thing on P.15....

Buuut, it doesn't say that the previous combat was one on one... and in fact suggests otherwise given that Mortarion has a stated bodyguard: the first part of this line needs to be accounted for in your reading:-

'Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.'

OK, Mortarion's poor at fighting (?) so being a clever chap he has a bodyguard who's unusually good at fighting... who having been smashed aside... sulk (?) whilst our Hero's having his artistic fun with their charge? Daemon Primarchs must be very forgiving of their minions' failure.

I'd agree that it is intended to be precisely literal though (there'll be no misremembering, 'Chinese whispers' observer who survived the GKs' extermination of all witnesses after the battle); though it being the usual (possible) 'fish story' would be the only thing that could redeem the tale....

Forgive me, after re-reading the story, I realise that it was actually the previous Supreme Grandmaster.

In which case, I can imagine that he would most definately be able to hold his own against both the Deathshroud (Mortarion's 2 bodyguards) and Mortarion himself.

A Supreme Grandmaster is quite literally the pinnacle of the Imperium, quite possible one of the most fearsome fighters in the galaxy. However, he alone would not be able to kill all 3.

On the other hand, Draigo assaults them in the same battle, just after they have finished a duel with Geronitan. I doubt that even Mortarion and the Deathshroud could face a subsequent assault of an even greater calibre (Draigo is rather angry after all).

Iranna.

Could it mean that Draigo put his sword through his heart and the sword was engraved with the name in question?

Every time I hear this getting talked about that's what I think. Although, to be fair, I haven't read it.

Iranna wrote:[A Supreme Grandmaster is quite literally the pinnacle of the Imperium, quite possible one of the most fearsome fighters in the galaxy. However, he alone would not be able to kill all 3.
On the other hand, Draigo assaults them in the same battle, just after they have finished a duel with Geronitan. I doubt that even Mortarion and the Deathshroud could face a subsequent assault of an even greater calibre (Draigo is rather angry after all).

His anger makes Draigo "an even greater calibre" than the true Grand Master who has both more experience and vastly superior wargear?
Well. On the other hand, Draigo started killing Daemon Princes left and right as a simple Battle Brother, so I suppose he has always been this awesome.
And with a name like that, what kind of daemon could possibly stand against him?

Unsurprisingly, opinions on the level of ... uh, "realism" concerning such stories will vary according to one's own opinion and convictions, and our interpretation of the setting as a whole. It stands to reason that Mr. Ward himself is convinced that it makes for a good story, and the book is written for a target audience that ideally shares this sentiment. The only thing everything can possibly agree on is that it is arguably a rather controversial character whose heroics manage to stick out even from the usual legends of 40k like an Ork at a tea party, so there's not much sense in argueing over it.

Never liked this fluff. Not one bit. I do love me some GK, they are badass but what I dont love is when it gets exaggerated. To me this story is incredibly exaggerated, sounds like something a homeless guy said he had done before he fell on some hard times to make his life atleast a little interesting. I also really like Mortarion and I think I may be biased because of it, but doing something like that to a primarch that has been elevated to a daemon price?.. Seems a tad too much for me.

All it needs is more detail, and to be treated with the reverence and badassery that a duel with a Primarch deserves.
That alone would fix the problem.