Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, because it's so out of place that a supreme grand master of a bunch of super soldiers that were specifically trained to fight daemons, beat a daemon..........that's so OOT

How do you carve something on a heart and have that being still live?!? I mean, I understand how the champion of Nurgle is a tough mothertrucker but how do you A. carve something onto a heart without puncturing it or tearing it apart and B. how the hell do you survive with a ripped heart? Oh wait don't Marines all have like multiple hearts? Anyhow the idea of carving a name onto the heart of a living being is kinda stupid.... and how did he have the time to carve a whole name while a demon primarch is fighting him!?! O.o ok I'll just leave this story be...

bombboy1252 wrote:Yes, because it's so out of place that a supreme grand master of a bunch of super soldiers that were specifically trained to fight daemons, beat a daemon..........that's so OOT

You've missed the point, I see.
Allow me to re-explain.
It's not that Draigo won, but that the fight gets a grand total of 4 lines in Draigo's biography.
Too short in detail for what was undoubtedly an epic duel.

Iranna wrote:

tsz52 wrote:
It's really best left alone, like that other thing on P.15....

Buuut, it doesn't say that the previous combat was one on one... and in fact suggests otherwise given that Mortarion has a stated bodyguard: the first part of this line needs to be accounted for in your reading:-

'Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.'

OK, Mortarion's poor at fighting (?) so being a clever chap he has a bodyguard who's unusually good at fighting... who having been smashed aside... sulk (?) whilst our Hero's having his artistic fun with their charge? Daemon Primarchs must be very forgiving of their minions' failure.

I'd agree that it is intended to be precisely literal though (there'll be no misremembering, 'Chinese whispers' observer who survived the GKs' extermination of all witnesses after the battle); though it being the usual (possible) 'fish story' would be the only thing that could redeem the tale....

Forgive me, after re-reading the story, I realise that it was actually the previous Supreme Grandmaster.

In which case, I can imagine that he would most definately be able to hold his own against both the Deathshroud (Mortarion's 2 bodyguards) and Mortarion himself.

A Supreme Grandmaster is quite literally the pinnacle of the Imperium, quite possible one of the most fearsome fighters in the galaxy. However, he alone would not be able to kill all 3.

On the other hand, Draigo assaults them in the same battle, just after they have finished a duel with Geronitan. I doubt that even Mortarion and the Deathshroud could face a subsequent assault of an even greater calibre (Draigo is rather angry after all).

Iranna.

Fair enough; it comes down to this:-

Imagine the simple mechanical difficulty of holding someone down and carving 'G-e-r-o-n-i-t-a-n' into their chest whilst they struggle, with arms all over the place, trying to squirm and roll away etc (let alone try to actually fight back).

Now make that hapless victim a Daemon Primarch (however tired he may be).

Now accomplish all this with two elite (and extremely highly motivated for many reasons) giants in terminator armour stood beside/behind you (however tired they me be), who have huge scythes - the very shape for hooking you and pulling you away if nothing else.

'G-e-r-o-n-i-t-a-n' takes a while to carve under those circumstances. If you personally find this feasible then fair play - not much more that we can say, and I'm glad it was nice and civil.

EDIT: If he'd slain the bodyguard in passing (thus taking them out of the picture, rather than smashing his way through them), such was his Righteous Fury, then I'd have far fewer problems with the tale.

* * *

Morty: "I have just suffered the greatest indignity and humiliation of my entire life! Where the feth were you, O Most Favoured 'Champions' of mine?!"

Bodyguards: "Sorry boss, we were a bit knackered after that ruck with the other guy... catching our breath, y'know...."

Morty: "Yeah... I was pretty tired meself. Fair enough lads, go and get yourselves a nice brew."

I've never had a 'manage'r that understanding, let alone one who was a Daemon Primarch. Them Nurgle folks really must be the nicest guys after all....

Fire_for_effect wrote:How do you carve something on a heart and have that being still live?

His material body was likely dead at the time.

When daemons die, they still leave a corpse. Then they go back to the Warp.

I just like to tell myself...

"That wasn't really what happened. The "daemon" that Draigo fought was just a shadow form of Mortarion.

And the "heart of Mortarion" was simply some device in the room.

Well, heres how this really happened. Everyone listen up. Ok soo Morty goes and kills Draigos boss cuz well morty then gains like plus 50% badassness. Then Draigos like hey morty GW needs more money so maybe they can actually do something about how crappy half the demon line looks, so you should let me like carve some crap into your heart cuz then I gain like 150% badassness so GK will sell much better. Then Morty is like well gosh, I really could use some new nurgley friends, go for it. thats how GW constructs the lore lately.

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.

This part of Angron's fluff I always loved
"My lord are you planning yet another crusade?"
*very loud raging*
"But my lord maybe this time you should not try and take on a army of grey knights by yourself."
*louder raging*
"Fine see you in a couple weeks my lord"

In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol

Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol

If you're referring to An'ggrath, that wasn't the Grey Knights, and Hector Rex had his True Name. I guess you could argue that Gharghatuloth is stronger than Angron, though.

Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol

Angron wasn't killed one on one. He was banished by an entire company of Grey Knights, and he killed all but one of them in the process.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol

Angron wasn't killed one on one. He was banished by an entire company of Grey Knights, and he killed all but one of them in the process.

Considering that both Stern and Mordrak (IIRC, at least one of the named characters in the Codex) are stated to be survivors of Armageddon I, more than one obviously survived. Lexicanum puts their number around a dozen, but doesn't cite sources.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol

Angron wasn't killed one on one. He was banished by an entire company of Grey Knights, and he killed all but one of them in the process.

Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
Having said that, combat was kinda Angron's thing, though. He was ace at it.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
Having said that, combat was kinda Angron's thing, though. He was ace at it.

Also, none of those GKs were above the rank of Brother-Sergeant (Justicar now).

Grey Knights have been killing Daemon Primarchs literally since the first time they were mentioned. Everyone's shock at Draigo is misplaced since it's a perfect example of what Grey Knights have always done.

Matt Ward is awesome, he take OP codexs and makes them a little weaker and everyone says its the most OP codex ever. Then he writes good fluff about GK being good at their job.

Times change, 40k changes, everyone "wants" things their way. I wish I had the new models and had the old codex, might not have Warp Quake anymore but it was a whole lot harder to kill Daemon Hunters.

With that said, I’m sure Matt Wards bad fluff writing will lead into a book about the events he writes about so GW can make more money.

DK

I posted this on another site, dont hate because the Emperor is awesome.

I dunno, maybe it's because I have not bothered too much with the Ordo Malleus, but I'm used to see GKs ganging up against individual hi-power daemons.
Not single GKs slapping them around. After punching through their guards.

What rank was Drogo when he pwned Mortarion, anyways? I mean, at least he had 100+ years of experience by now, not like in his first battle against a Daemon Prince.

In general, stories like these just have me question why organizations such as the GKs and SW are not doing more to help the Imperium. When Draigo is supposed to be "not that exceptional", a single company of Grey Knights should easily be able to punch through the Eye of Terror.
Conversely, it makes daemons look weaker.

It just takes a portion of the horror away, but this is just my feeling and maybe I *am* the only one in this. Maybe fleshing out the story as Gorskar suggested would help alleviate the issue, too, but at the moment it just looks "out of place" considering the role of daemons in the setting as I perceive it based on what I've read in the past.

In essence, Grey Knights have replaced Daemon Princes as the most powerful thing to possibly encounter on a battlefield, and I don't like this change.

I like seeing this kinda thing, what is worse, being a Human and see a Bloodletter charge u...or being a bloodletter and a Grey Knight terminator charge u.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.

When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.

I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart

That would actually be a great deal more reasonable, but I would still like to hear the full story told, rather than a mere 4 or so lines. Let's be honest, a fight with a major canon character such as a Daemon Primarch should take precedence over Draigo's grudge with Beaky the Lord of Change any day.

Isn't Beaky the Lord of Change a major cannon character? And reasonable? I think it is when one considers the likely hood that Ward was using poetic license when referring to one of the major victories Draigo had over chaos (although Pyrrhic ) especially when Beaky is Draigos foil, and intergral to the personal stake that Draigo has beyond simply GK R HATES THE CHAOZZZ!!

Its also important to remember, that ward and his coauthors where trying to fit epicness deserving of a GKGM, a bad donkey amongst the baddest donkeys, into like what 2 pages of fluff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:I dunno, maybe it's because I have not bothered too much with the Ordo Malleus, but I'm used to see GKs ganging up against individual hi-power daemons.
Not single GKs slapping them around. After punching through their guards.

What rank was Drogo when he pwned Mortarion, anyways? I mean, at least he had 100+ years of experience by now, not like in his first battle against a Daemon Prince.

In general, stories like these just have me question why organizations such as the GKs and SW are not doing more to help the Imperium. When Draigo is supposed to be "not that exceptional", a single company of Grey Knights should easily be able to punch through the Eye of Terror.
Conversely, it makes daemons look weaker.

It just takes a portion of the horror away, but this is just my feeling and maybe I *am* the only one in this. Maybe fleshing out the story as Gorskar suggested would help alleviate the issue, too, but at the moment it just looks "out of place" considering the role of daemons in the setting as I perceive it based on what I've read in the past.

In essence, Grey Knights have replaced Daemon Princes as the most powerful thing to possibly encounter on a battlefield, and I don't like this change.

Except you forget that mortarion "bitch slapped" Draigo's mentor around while getting pummled by him, draigo, and several other GKs irrc. Driago was enraged at the slapping of bitches, so he returned the favor to the weakened primarch, so no big woop and no weakness in the daemons. Just an instance of heroism/ hard donkeyism


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
Having said that, combat was kinda Angron's thing, though. He was ace at it.

Also, none of those GKs were above the rank of Brother-Sergeant (Justicar now).

Grey Knights have been killing Daemon Primarchs literally since the first time they were mentioned. Everyone's shock at Draigo is misplaced since it's a perfect example of what Grey Knights have always done.

THANK YOU XD Also, is it not ok for Draigo just to be a supreme bad donkey? I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman. I would bet no one is crying foul because it was bruce waynes first day, and those guys he just trashed were hardcore gangsters and had been killing, fighting etc.. for years yadyada yada.

But anyways, Morty fans, Draigo pwnd your guy, and GK fans, Morty single handed, weathered a beating from several grey knights, and then porked your GM. So everyone wins... or loses... whatever

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.

When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.

I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart

That would actually be a great deal more reasonable, but I would still like to hear the full story told, rather than a mere 4 or so lines. Let's be honest, a fight with a major canon character such as a Daemon Primarch should take precedence over Draigo's grudge with Beaky the Lord of Change any day.

Isn't Beaky the Lord of Change a major cannon character? And reasonable? I think it is when one considers the likely hood that Ward was using poetic license when referring to one of the major victories Draigo had over chaos (although Pyrrhic ) especially when Beaky is Draigos foil, and intergral to the personal stake that Draigo has beyond simply GK R HATES THE CHAOZZZ!!

Its also important to remember, that ward and his coauthors where trying to fit epicness deserving of a GKGM, a bad donkey amongst the baddest donkeys, into like what 2 pages of fluff?

Beaky, as I recall, pretty much exists to provide a foil for Draigo. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm just surprised that Mortarion doesn't also try to act on his grudge. Then again, making your character's rival someone immensely pivotal to the 40K mythos at large is probably far more overpowered than simply having him fight the guy that one time.
Also, I just think more should be devoted to it. It's a Primarch, after all, the duel deserves more than four lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman.

As a Bats fan, I can confirm that actually he nearly died the first time he went out as Batman.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman.

As a Bats fan, I can confirm that actually he nearly died the first time he went out as Batman.

And that's the thing people miss. Good characters are fallible. They aren't casually described as cake-walking through the baddest mofos in the galaxy. They go out and fight and struggle and you have to root for them and hope they won't die.

Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.

What really upsets me is...

If Grey Knights are uncorruptable, super-pure, anethmas to daemons and the warp, why is it that a greater Daemon of Tzeentch is able to mess with Brother-Captin Stern so often?

Though I can understand Angrons need for violence, the other Daemon-Primarchs have moved on from reality.

Mortarion is the AVATAR OF DEATH! He isn't some mutated primarch, he is the champion of the god Nurgle.

He is above worldly things such as... whatever he was doing to invite the wrath of Draigo.

Mortarion, Magnus, Fulgrim ect have moved on with their eternal lives. The petty actions of mankind in the Imperium are of no import to them.

"Hmm, I'm bored of being omnipotent today, tired of all this 'deceiding who lives and who dies each moment of all existance'... think I'll travel to the mortal realms, turn myself into a fragment of my power...

and pick a fight with some Grey Knights."

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.

Only detailed account of Angron getting whupped was during Armageddon I and that took some insane number of both Grey Knights and Space Wolves. I also don't think that any of them survived.
My point wasn't that daemon-primarchs can't be killed/cast back into the warp, it's that they should never be just straight up beaten.
The Draigo fluff would have been much better if he had gone all Angry Marine upon the death of the Grandmaster, then managed to do a suicide charge on Mortarion, getting him with a final 'from hell's heart I stab at thee' sort of move, at which point the whole getting sucked into the warp to wander forever thing happens.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Except you forget that mortarion "bitch slapped" Draigo's mentor around while getting pummled by him, draigo, and several other GKs irrc. Driago was enraged at the slapping of bitches, so he returned the favor to the weakened primarch, so no big woop and no weakness in the daemons.

See, if that's how it would be written ...
However, from how it sounds like, Montarion is never described as being in a weakened state in the actual text whatsoever. It's like "Draigo comes, Draigo sees, Draigo wins".

Can we get a citation, perchance? I do not own the Codex myself, so I'm relying purely on "what the internet says". And his description on the GW website as well as Ward's comment only further reinforce the stigma rather than dispelling it.

DK wrote:I like seeing this kinda thing, what is worse, being a Human and see a Bloodletter charge u...or being a bloodletter and a Grey Knight terminator charge u.

Bloodletters are Lesser Daemons. No biggie. Bloodletters get killed by non-Marines in single combat, too.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.

An entire company of GK Terminators, no less.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:And that's the thing people miss. Good characters are fallible. They aren't casually described as cake-walking through the baddest mofos in the galaxy. They go out and fight and struggle and you have to root for them and hope they won't die.

Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.

qft

The problem with the Draigo vs. Mortarion fluff isn't really that Draigo beat Mortarion. Yes, if you get both a Grand Master and the guy who's gonna be Grand Master of the Grey Knights together in one place, it's not that bad to say that they can banish a Daemon Primarch and his bodyguard.

No, what's bad about it is how it's done. They fight Mortarion. Cool! Grand Master Geronitan gets killed. Noooo! Draigo Hulks out! Yaaay! He beats up the bodyguards! Woooo! He turns on Mortarion! Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards? "Here, hold your boss down while I cut this name into his rotting heart, guys." "Sure, sounds like fun. Grab his legs, Bob. Boy, will this be a great story to tell the guys back in the Eye of Terror!"

I'm fine with Draigo winning against Mortarion, ok? He's a Grey Knight, he's a named character, he's supposed to be awesome against daemons, and he wasn't the only one there either. If the story had ended with Draigo going all ragetastic and banishing the weakened Mortarion, that would have been a perfectly decent piece of fluff. What ISN'T fine is Draigo not only winning, but somehow contriving to pin the dude down IN THE MIDDLE OF COMBAT and making like Grimdark Zorro with the contents of his chest cavity. And that isn't unacceptable because it's overpowered, but rather because it's amazingly DUMB.

Matt Ward deserves every single ounce of scorn he gets for this, because it's so unbelievably stupid that it literally breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'm fine with superpowered characters, but not with superpowered characters doing stupid, juvenile things "because they're awesome". Yarrick ripping off a Warboss's power klaw and taking it for himself? Yep, he's a badass. Lysander escaping the Iron Warriors daemon-world bare-handed? Eh. . . that's kinda OTT, but ok, he's a badass, I can deal with that.

Wazzdakka killing a Titan? That's a dumb piece of fluff, and I roll my eyes about it. Oh look, the skulls are STILL on fire. What?!

Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader? That's stupid. Really, appallingly stupid. And THAT, not the power-level involved, is really the problem with it.

It seems that everybody is forgetting who Mortarion is in fact.

Brother Coa wrote:It seems that everybody is forgetting who Mortarion is in fact.

How so?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader?

Oh boy. Someone pitch this to an artist at /tg/, this would make a hilarious drawing in their gallery. Mortarion looking to the side keeping his eyes closed shut whilst Draigo threatens to spit into his corrupted face.

I have to read up on that Titan bit, that's one thing that has escaped me so far. I'll trade it for the location of the "500 Space Wolves vs the Segmentum Pacificus" story!

Because Draigo beating him and his bodyguards is just answered with "so what"?

Everybody seems to forget the meaning of the word "Primarch" and how insanely strong they are.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman.

As a Bats fan, I can confirm that actually he nearly died the first time he went out as Batman.

And that's the thing people miss. Good characters are fallible. They aren't casually described as cake-walking through the baddest mofos in the galaxy. They go out and fight and struggle and you have to root for them and hope they won't die.

Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.

In fact, if we continue this comparison a little further, we see that Batman is injured constantly while fighting crime. Constantly. There's a big deal made about how he had to reinforce his gloves 'cause he used to break his knuckles when punching superpowered crims who have unusual physical endurance, how he's often sleep-deprived to the point of not being able to function, and how he suffers from PTSD in the form of nightmares and occasional flashbacks, and that's without counting the plotlines where ol' Bats take such serious injuries that he nearly considers retirement (or indeed actually retires, if only for a short time).
I'm not saying this doesn't happen to Draigo, on the contrary; it must do, because to get where he is now means he's quite literally gone through hell several times. However, in a story which arguably should have had Draigo struggle against seemingly impossible odds yet win through like the righteous badass we know him to be, it's simply stated that he was able to beat Mortarion one time. No description, no nothing.
Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history. Chaplain Grimaldus, again, refused to die and managed to claw his way out of a ruin that fell on top of him. He is a righteous mothercusser, and he should be given the biggest tankard of beer ever.
Description and hardship, even extreme hardship, does not weaken a hero, but actually makes them more heroic.

Lynata wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader?

Oh boy. Someone pitch this to an artist at /tg/, this would make a hilarious drawing in their gallery. Mortarion looking to the side keeping his eyes closed shut whilst Draigo threatens to spit into his corrupted face.

I have to read up on that Titan bit, that's one thing that has escaped me so far. I'll trade it for the location of the "500 Space Wolves vs the Segmentum Pacificus" story!

It's in the Ork Codex: Wazzdakka kills a Warlord Titan by ramping off a cliff, riding his bike THROUGH the void shields and the (apparently very fragile) viewport over the cockpit, then killing the command crew in hand-to-hand combat. He takes their skulls with him as a trophy after he gets out (How?!). Said skulls are, according to the Ork Codex, STILL on fire after however long it's been. Perhaps he just douses them with squig-oil periodically. . .

The Space Wolves vs. the Segmentum Pacificus story comes from the 2nd Edition SoB and Space Wolf codexes, I believe. The Apostate Cardinal Bucharis managed to conquer an enormous fraction of the galaxy, ranging all the way from near Cadia in the north to Bakka in the south; basically, he appears to have owned around half the galaxy.

Then he attacked Fenris, and the Space Wolves held out against his military for three solid years without the Fang ever being breached. They appear to have occupied three-quarters of his entire military strength, and he could never beat them.

See, these are bad pieces of fluff for EXACTLY the same reason Draigo vs. Mortarion is; they don't even give a reason! If heroes do ridiculously hardcore things, winning through against incredible challenges, great! If they do plain ridiculous things with no regard for the difficulty, boo!