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I think everyone is missing a couple little details here. First, Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch. There are few existing things that could give him a challenge. Draigo is not among them.

Second, good ol' Morty hasn't been out of his sanctum on the Plague Planet in almost 10,000 years. The fluff makes no sense. I like to pretend it doesn't exist.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Space Wolves vs. the Segmentum Pacificus story comes from the 2nd Edition SoB and Space Wolf codexes, I believe. The Apostate Cardinal Bucharis managed to conquer an enormous fraction of the galaxy, ranging all the way from near Cadia in the north to Bakka in the south; basically, he appears to have owned around half the galaxy. Then he attacked Fenris, and the Space Wolves held out against his military for three solid years without the Fang ever being breached. They appear to have occupied three-quarters of his entire military strength, and he could never beat them.

Damn, you already knew.

Thanks for posting the Ork stuff, though! I don't even have an issue with the burning skulls (I'll just attribute it to the Waaagh field), but riding a bike through a Titan's head and through its void shields is just dumb. I won't deny that it's a very Orky thing to do, but it sticks out the usual stuff by not following established parameters, as much as that can be said about Orks in general.

This, too, sounds like it could have been made into a nice bit of fluff if it was simply written in a less ridiculous way. For example a single sentence about the Titan already being damaged but "still moving on, seemingly unstoppable", then the Boss goes for his stunt and the text mentions how "in any other case, his ride would have found a quick end at the Titan's void shields", but then noting that they flickered in that very moment as his Boyz kept hurling shells at it, allowing the crazed Ork to land on the roof of the Titan's head, reach between the cracked plates of armour and using his inhuman strength to rip the head section open piece by piece, exposing the surprised crew. There you go. Still badass.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Description and hardship, even extreme hardship, does not weaken a hero, but actually makes them more heroic.

This!

Lynata wrote:
This, too, sounds like it could have been made into a nice bit of fluff if it was simply written in a less ridiculous way. For example a single sentence about the Titan already being damaged but "still moving on, seemingly unstoppable", then the Boss goes for his stunt and the text mentions how "in any other case, his ride would have found a quick end at the Titan's void shields", but then noting that they flickered in that very moment as his Boyz kept hurling shells at it, allowing the crazed Ork to land on the roof of the Titan's head, reach between the cracked plates of armour and using his inhuman strength to rip the head section open piece by piece, exposing the surprised crew. There you go. Still badass.

Exactly! Which is why I don't like the Mortarion bit; beating him isn't the problem, scrawling graffiti on his internal organs with your claymore is.

In the Ork case, the fact that he was crazy enough to think that it was going to work is what made it work. That's how Orks get things done.

Durza wrote:In the Ork case, the fact that he was crazy enough to think that it was going to work is what made it work. That's how Orks get things done.

Yeah, but no. If that's how the setting would work, the Orks would win all the time and the Imperium wouldn't even bother sending Titans against them anymore. So it would seem that the Waaagh field is not a trump card for any kind of stupid gak.

You always have to judge these exceptional incidents in relation to the other accounts. To what is considered "normal". For a writer, there's leeway, and then there's ridiculously OTT.

Like Angron taking 100 GK Terminators to get beaten establishing a precedent, which then gets compared to Mortarion getting bitchslapped by a single dude.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol

If you're referring to An'ggrath, that wasn't the Grey Knights, and Hector Rex had his True Name. I guess you could argue that Gharghatuloth is stronger than Angron, though.

I was refering to Gharghatuloth.

People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.

Thraka killing a titan.
That commissar pulling the arm off a warboss. (I mean find me a person who can pull lou ferigno's arm off.)
Numerous last stands of heroes last like Calgar.
Single psykers doing things get on the hive minds level.
Eldrad
Wolf Priest Ulric
Ngal Stormcaller
Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.
Ctans actually dyin..
Imotekh is claimed to be the greatest strategist ever known.. Havent they made that claim on idk a character PER book. lol
Abaddon's fluff claims hes equal to a daemon primarch.
Dante beat Skarbrand in a single blow.
Sanguinor pops up and the bad guys die..
Arjac

I could go on but the point is comparing the level of the idividuals with some of their accomplishements is just as outrageous or redundant in stormlords case.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:

Lynata wrote:
This, too, sounds like it could have been made into a nice bit of fluff if it was simply written in a less ridiculous way. For example a single sentence about the Titan already being damaged but "still moving on, seemingly unstoppable", then the Boss goes for his stunt and the text mentions how "in any other case, his ride would have found a quick end at the Titan's void shields", but then noting that they flickered in that very moment as his Boyz kept hurling shells at it, allowing the crazed Ork to land on the roof of the Titan's head, reach between the cracked plates of armour and using his inhuman strength to rip the head section open piece by piece, exposing the surprised crew. There you go. Still badass.

Exactly! Which is why I don't like the Mortarion bit; beating him isn't the problem, scrawling graffiti on his internal organs with your claymore is.

It might be literal. It might just mean Draigo put a whoopin on.

Draigo wrote:

It might be literal. It might just mean Draigo put a whoopin on.

I assume you meant it might NOT be literal. But, well. . . if it isn't meant literally, then it's a very, VERY awkward metaphor without much by way of indication that it's supposed to be metaphorical. . . and either way, it's very bad writing.

Draigo wrote:
That commissar pulling the arm off a warboss. (I mean find me a person who can pull lou ferigno's arm off.)

Yarrick cut it off the warboss after it was dead. Much more reasonable, I think you'll agree.

Draigo wrote:
Thraka killing a titan.
That commissar pulling the arm off a warboss. (I mean find me a person who can pull lou ferigno's arm off.)
Numerous last stands of heroes last like Calgar.
Single psykers doing things get on the hive minds level.
Eldrad
Wolf Priest Ulric
Ngal Stormcaller
Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.
Ctans actually dyin..
Imotekh is claimed to be the greatest strategist ever known.. Havent they made that claim on idk a character PER book. lol
Abaddon's fluff claims hes equal to a daemon primarch.
Dante beat Skarbrand in a single blow.
Sanguinor pops up and the bad guys die..
Arjac

Plot armor in it's finest...

Abaddon is meant to be equal to a daemon primarch, and he's accomplished at least as much as them in the last ten thousand years.

Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history.

Read up on Hispanics who have earned the Metal of Honor.

There's a man who had the top of his head blown off in Vietnam. He stood up, continued to charge, killed several cong and carried a few people out of the jungle. All this before someone said "Dude, your brain is exposed."

DeffDred wrote:

Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history.

Read up on Hispanics who have earned the Metal of Honor.

There's a man who had the top of his head blown off in Vietnam. He stood up, continued to charge, killed several cong and carried a few people out of the jungle. All this before someone said "Dude, your brain is exposed."

Because hyperbole which is obvious is meant to be literal?

Draigo wrote:
People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.

Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.

Source on this? Last time I looked Helbrecht was in charge of the Fleet Operations and had to resort to hit and run tactics because there were just too damn many Orks. They still won, in the end, but it cost them.

Draigo wrote:People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.

Awareness is one factor, but another would be our individual thresholds between heroic badassery and ridiculous exaggeration - influenced partially by our personal preferences regarding how much action we like to see or read about (as well as its relation to the setting; one can still enjoy "Rambo" whilst knowing it's unrealistic), as well as potentially blurred by army-specific bias.

There's no accounting for taste, though - we could just as well get into a fight over who likes and who hates the new Star Trek movie.

What we have here is, in my opinion, a classic case of different target demographics. Some people gravitate towards grimdark realism, others prefer epic/legendary feats of heroism. It's why FFG's Deathwatch RPG employs significantly different rules than its Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader counterparts, to bring us full circle back to 40k.

DeffDred wrote:

Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history.

Read up on Hispanics who have earned the Metal of Honor.

There's a man who had the top of his head blown off in Vietnam. He stood up, continued to charge, killed several cong and carried a few people out of the jungle. All this before someone said "Dude, your brain is exposed."

And of course Simo Hayha, who killed over 500 Russians in 100 days, survived a series of carpet bombings aimed at just him and then got shot in the head with an explosive bullet. And then he got better after a week in hospital.

Durza wrote:Abaddon is meant to be equal to a daemon primarch, and he's accomplished at least as much as them in the last ten thousand years.

Yeah, Abaddon actually is supposed to be like a Daemon Primarch. He's the heir of Horus, the Warmaster of the Traitor Legions and he has the favor of all the Chaos Gods.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Draigo wrote:
People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.

Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.

Source on this? Last time I looked Helbrecht was in charge of the Fleet Operations and had to resort to hit and run tactics because there were just too damn many Orks. They still won, in the end, but it cost them.

Black Templars codex.. his own entry.

Did somebody compare Draigo to Batman! Heresy! But that's what we're dealing with: A bunch of Batman fans eagerly opening their new gnarly Batman comic and finding effin' essentially-indestructable Superman all over it (again...).

As mentioned already, it's all about the details of the account, not the act of a GK being lucky against a Daemon.

As to the Ork vs Titan, I always took that as an homage to the A-Wing trashing the Star Destroyer... who knows what's possible (now and then) with them Orks? Whereas we've got a better idea what's possible where humies are concerned - you have to be a bit more careful with the humie Heroism dial (when doodling on Daemon Primarchs under the nose of his bodyguard, or punching Avatars...).

Lynata: Just coz it's you [this is all of it]:-

'901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin

Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.'

Worth mentioning that the breathless incorrect tense style is a really tawdry rhetorical trick too, which any lover of the written word has every right to hate and despise, regardless of the passage's other possible virtues. It's one of those 'done well and sparingly it can be effective' methods that lazy hacks use all the time to make their words seem more EXCITING!!!! and urgent (rather than going to the trouble of actually making them more exciting on their own merit).

Compare and contrast with the (correct in tense) writing style of 3rd Ed Codex fluff.

At the end of the day, despite what any of us on the interwebz think, it's not likely to change any time soon.

Therefore, we can either rationalise, or rage about it.

I believe that DarknessEternal provided an excellent way in which this can be done, it is quite easy to carve a name into a lifeless body after all.

Iranna.

tsz52 wrote:Lynata: Just coz it's you [this is all of it]:

Thank you! Much appreciated.

This makes the following clear to me:
- "Alone and unaided", clarifying that Mortarion was unaffected by his previous encounter with Draigo's boss
- "the Daemon's vile heart", clarifying that it really does refer to the organ itself
- "Mortarion ultimately escapes", clarifying that Mortarion wasn't actually killed, he was temporarily incapacitated

My personal verdict is cast. Too bad, I had actually entertained the thought that the internet may have simply played it up beyond the actual contents as it does ever so often.

Certainly it would be possible to re-interpret the incident in a less ridiculous way, but this would contradict the actual wording in the Codex and as such only serve as proof of its quality.

tsz52 wrote:Compare and contrast with the (correct in tense) writing style of 3rd Ed Codex fluff.

Man, I miss those days. Or better yet, 2E. Back then you actually had detailed information about a faction's organization, history and equipment in your Codex.

I just really hate how pretty much every named Space marine / GK manages to kill like bloodthirsters, demon princes, Avatars. Like a bloodthirster Could be killed by a space marine how? Bloodthirsters are infinitely better at fighting than ANY human being, even geneticly enhanced super soldiers. Mortarion, a primarch blessed with the demonic gifts of nurgle, got beat down by ONE human? Thats equally rediculous, I don't care who that human is. The Demons have been soo far belittled, its really stupid. I love the demons, they're my only army I actually have almost completely painted. I read their fluff and they're the most powerful beings in the 40k universe, then I read some SM or GK fluff and they get pushed around like a guardsman. Yeah, I know GK is anti-demon and all that, but come on Mortarion is a demon primarch. I just despise how GW keeps crapping on other people's fluff to boost anothers. A great example is how like, every other space marine legion is now inferior to the ultramarines? Ultramarine's have the purest geneseed and all, but all of the other chapters have done so much more for the imperium.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards?

Mortarion's body was dead.


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Lynata wrote:
In general, stories like these just have me question why organizations such as the GKs and SW are not doing more to help the Imperium. When Draigo is supposed to be "not that exceptional", a single company of Grey Knights should easily be able to punch through the Eye of Terror.
Conversely, it makes daemons look weaker.

Such an act would kill a bunch of Grey Knights and do nothing to the daemons. Daemons don't die when they're "killed", they go home for awhile.

Grey Knights who die are dead forever.


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Brother Coa wrote:
Everybody seems to forget the meaning of the word "Primarch" and how insanely strong they are.

When you put "daemon" in front of that, you make something Grey Knights are built to kill.

And Primarchs aren't unkillable. They've been killed by mortals, and many more were at least certain enough they could do it (and had intimate knowledge of a Primarch's abilities) that they were willing to try.

Excerpt from Codex : Grey Knights (I can quote this stuff, right ?)

He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart - an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten.

In one and a half page of background. Yeah.


I think good things bear emphasizing, but there were just too many good posts to quote them all here. Apologies for the artificially long post.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.

This, so very very much.
People, we don't hate on Draigo/Ward because we're mean interwerbz trolls. The problem is simple : the Draigo/Mortarion "duel" is plain bad writing.

I mean, it can be forgiveable. In Little Red Riding Hood (spoilers ahead !), the hunter opens the wolf's belly and saves the girl and her grandma who had been eaten. Then they stuff the wolf's stomach with stones so he feels funny when he awakes later. It's told approximately in those very words, and the style is perfectly suited to the tale. It's perfectly credible : the wolf is the bad guy so you can do anything you want to him, and the girl and her grandma are innocent victims so they can't possibly die.
So you accept and even enjoy it, because you're five year old and someone is reading you a bedtime story.

Forgive me if I'm being a lil' more critical than that about a 40k codex.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Matt Ward deserves every single ounce of scorn he gets for this, because it's so unbelievably stupid that it literally breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'm fine with superpowered characters, but not with superpowered characters doing stupid, juvenile things "because they're awesome". Yarrick ripping off a Warboss's power klaw and taking it for himself? Yep, he's a badass. Lysander escaping the Iron Warriors daemon-world bare-handed? Eh. . . that's kinda OTT, but ok, he's a badass, I can deal with that.
Wazzdakka killing a Titan? That's a dumb piece of fluff, and I roll my eyes about it. Oh look, the skulls are STILL on fire. What?!
Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader? That's stupid. Really, appallingly stupid. And THAT, not the power-level involved, is really the problem with it.

QFT.
It could have been made credible if written well, but as it stands, it sounds like a wish fulfillment self-insert story the aforementioned first-grader would have written to take revenge on the bully.
In fact a lot of things in this codex sound this way now that I think of it.


Aaaand, there were other most pleasant folks who made me laugh heartily, and for this you have my thanks.

Johnny-Crass wrote:This part of Angron's fluff I always loved
"My lord are you planning yet another crusade?"
*very loud raging*
"But my lord maybe this time you should not try and take on a army of grey knights by yourself."
*louder raging*
"Fine see you in a couple weeks my lord"

BeRzErKeR wrote:They fight Mortarion. Cool! Grand Master Geronitan gets killed. Noooo! Draigo Hulks out! Yaaay! He beats up the bodyguards! Woooo! He turns on Mortarion! Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards? "Here, hold your boss down while I cut this name into his rotting heart, guys." "Sure, sounds like fun. Grab his legs, Bob. Boy, will this be a great story to tell the guys back in the Eye of Terror!"

I can not roll my eyes enough for the "Mortarion's not that tough" argument. Mortarion is a Daemon-Primarch of Nurgle. He's a super-primarch! He may be the toughest character in the entire 40k setting that is not a god. And that is exactly why he was chosen: so he could get "worfed" and therefore show that Draigo is the bestest fighter ever. Seriously, it's just bad writing.

DarknessEternal wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards?

Mortarion's body was dead.

Uh. . . says who? Can you give me a quote about that?

Remember the part that says he escaped afterwards? That doesn't sound very dead to me . . . Furthermore, why would daemons even leave physical bodies behind when they die? They're pure Warp energy held together by willpower; there's no reason they would leave a body behind unless they for some reason WANTED to.

There are so many aspects of the story that simply make no sense (in addition to being very poorly written) that it makes me want to pimp-slap Matt Ward with a copy of Strunk and White. Or possibly a Roget's Thesaurus.

On second thought, both. Definitely both.

DarknessEternal wrote:Such an act would kill a bunch of Grey Knights and do nothing to the daemons. Daemons don't die when they're "killed", they go home for awhile.
Grey Knights who die are dead forever.

It may not have a long-term effect on daemons, but an Imperial crusade through the Eye of Terror would see a boatload of worlds cleansed of traitor Guardsmen, mutants and Chaos Marines. And those don't come back so easily.

Grey Knights can be replaced. 50% of the original Astartes Legions emigrating into the Eye of Terror to form the very basis of any large-scale Chaos incursion into Imperial territory so far ... not so much.
Unless we assume a second Heresy, ofc.

Normal people cannot survive in the Eye of Terror for any significant time: only Draigo could.... he should be sufficient to destroy the remaining traitor legions anyway.

Good point, but I guess it would be enough (or certainly help a lot) to just cleanse those planets on the outer regions that have been, uh ... settled by people. If one could use this term for their living style.
Make all the traitors pay, destroy their manufactoriums and shipyards, TAKE AWAY THEIR METAL BOXES

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Normal people cannot survive in the Eye of Terror for any significant time: only Draigo could.... he should be sufficient to destroy the remaining traitor legions anyway.

I agree.
After doing all that IN WARP, what is couple of thousands traitor Legionaries for him? Like a candy bar to small child.


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DarknessEternal wrote:
When you put "daemon" in front of that, you make something Grey Knights are built to kill.

Yeah, like they killed Angron on Armageddon. And losing slightly less then 100 TERMINATORS in process.

And Primarchs aren't unkillable. They've been killed by mortals, and many more were at least certain enough they could do it (and had intimate knowledge of a Primarch's abilities) that they were willing to try.

That would be like some random Ork nob in time of Great Crusade go trough the Space Wolf Guard and defeat Leman Russ in combat then carve the name of his Warboss on his hearth.
And point me to were it is said that Grey Knights know fallen Primarch new abilities as Daemon Princes? Especially for Mortarion who didn't leave plague planet for 10.000 years.

Draigo

I think you'll find Helbrecht was conducting a Guerilla war on Thraka's hulk. I think you'll also find that in no place in Helbrechts entry is it detailed how many warriors he fought with leaving it open to speculation. He could have been doing it with a chapters worth of marines or maybe just a company. You're also failing to realise that both Thraka and his fleet were under significant imperial bombardment

But I digress. I beleive that we are all over thinking the whole issue. Mr. Ward is renowned for his OTT characters; Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius to a lesser degree, the list goes on. But what He has done here is so stupendously silly that it requires the biggest of face-palms. To kill a Daemon-PRIMARCH, not some prince, A PRIMARCH, a Nurgle one at that in CQB after swatting his bodyguard away like the flies that most likely surround them, beating Mortarion to the ground (remembering he is a primarch) then carving his dead masters name into his heart is simply too stupid. Especially when Angron for all intents and purposes, took out a GK TERMINATOR company before being banished.