Question About Draigo Vs. Mortarion

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**Iranna**

BeRzErKer wrote:
Uh. . . says who? Can you give me a quote about that?

Remember the part that says he escaped afterwards? That doesn't sound very dead to me . . . Furthermore, why would daemons even leave physical bodies behind when they die? They're pure Warp energy held together by willpower; there's no reason they would leave a body behind unless they for some reason WANTED to.

There are so many aspects of the story that simply make no sense (in addition to being very poorly written) that it makes me want to pimp-slap Matt Ward with a copy of Strunk and White. Or possibly a Roget's Thesaurus.

On second thought, both. Definitely both.

In the "Purging of Jollana" story in the Grey Knights codex, the Grey Knights are described as "burning the daemon carcasses" at the end of the battle.

Why would they burn something that didn't exist?

Iranna.

**Surtur**

The Crusader wrote:Draigo

I think you'll find Helbrecht was conducting a Guerilla war on Thraka's hulk. I think you'll also find that in no place in Helbrechts entry is it detailed how many warriors he fought with leaving it open to speculation. He could have been doing it with a chapters worth of marines or maybe just a company. You're also failing to realise that both Thraka and his fleet were under significant imperial bombardment

But I digress. I beleive that we are all over thinking the whole issue. Mr. Ward is renowned for his OTT characters; Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius to a lesser degree, the list goes on. But what He has done here is so stupendously silly that it requires the biggest of face-palms. To kill a Daemon-PRIMARCH, not some prince, A PRIMARCH, a Nurgle one at that in CQB after swatting his bodyguard away like the flies that most likely surround them, beating Mortarion to the ground (remembering he is a primarch) then carving his dead masters name into his heart is simply too stupid. Especially when Angron for all intents and purposes, took out a GK TERMINATOR company before being banished.

Calgar and Tigurius have been around since 3rd and Cassius since 4th. Calgar taking down the Avatar was AFTER it had been beaten on by terminators and heavy wepaons. Calgar was also taken down and out maneuvered by the Swarmlord. Tigurius has simply gleaned some info from the Hive Mind. Do you notice an ant in your house right away? If you want OTT characters look at Blood Angels. They unfortunately got stuck with the Sanguinor aka living deus ex machina. Look at Grey Knights with their plethora of I can't die because destiny.

But I digress, for all of those who wish to rationalize Draigo's fluff or try to down play it remember Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is usually correct. Draigo is to be taken at face value. As it stands he literally carved a name with his sword into a Daemon Primarch's heart while everyone stood and watched, even the Primarch. He literally bounces around the realm of chaos messing with all the chaos gods. Any other explanation of the fluff as written requires too many additions and too many hoops to jump through to make work.

**hotsauceman1**

The Crusader wrote:Draigo

I think you'll find Helbrecht was conducting a Guerilla war on Thraka's hulk. I think you'll also find that in no place in Helbrechts entry is it detailed how many warriors he fought with leaving it open to speculation. He could have been doing it with a chapters worth of marines or maybe just a company. You're also failing to realise that both Thraka and his fleet were under significant imperial bombardment

But I digress. I beleive that we are all over thinking the whole issue. Mr. Ward is renowned for his OTT characters; Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius to a lesser degree, the list goes on. But what He has done here is so stupendously silly that it requires the biggest of face-palms. To kill a Daemon-PRIMARCH, not some prince, A PRIMARCH, a Nurgle one at that in CQB after swatting his bodyguard away like the flies that most likely surround them, beating Mortarion to the ground (remembering he is a primarch) then carving his dead masters name into his heart is simply too stupid. Especially when Angron for all intents and purposes, took out a GK TERMINATOR company before being banished.

Yeah, yet he didnt go OTT with any of the marine characters in the codex that aren't smurfs.
Also how do you carve a name into someones heart? Wouldn't that be difficult?
Also thay would reqquire bone cuttters and alot of stuff to carve off the muscle and power armor? All that requires time which it stupid n the battle feild.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
BeRzErKer wrote:
Uh. . . says who? Can you give me a quote about that?

Remember the part that says he escaped afterwards? That doesn't sound very dead to me . . . Furthermore, why would daemons even leave physical bodies behind when they die? They're pure Warp energy held together by willpower; there's no reason they would leave a body behind unless they for some reason WANTED to.

There are so many aspects of the story that simply make no sense (in addition to being very poorly written) that it makes me want to pimp-slap Matt Ward with a copy of Strunk and White. Or possibly a Roget's Thesaurus.

On second thought, both. Definitely both.

In the "Purging of Jollana" story in the Grey Knights codex, the Grey Knights are described as "burning the daemon carcasses" at the end of the battle.

Why would they burn something that didn't exist?

Iranna.

And yet in other codexes, such as the CSM and Chaos Daemons one, daemons are given as being inherently unstable, and (get this) requiring immense amounts of energy invested in them just to stay tangible in the material universe. It makes no sense for them to exist afterwards, once the consciousness of said daemons has returned to the Warp and there is therefore nothing holding the body together. How can you burn wat at that point would be a bunch of dissipating emotions, anyway?
Now, if this had taken place in, say, an area of Warpspace, it would be a different story. But if that was the case, then Mortarion's body wouldn't have stayed behind as he was already in the warp at the time of his defeat, which means he couldn't be banished...
You see the problem this whole thing opens up?

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
And yet in other codexes, such as the CSM and Chaos Daemons one, daemons are given as being inherently unstable, and (get this) requiring immense amounts of energy invested in them just to stay tangible in the material universe. It makes no sense for them to exist afterwards, once the consciousness of said daemons has returned to the Warp and there is therefore nothing holding the body together. How can you burn wat at that point would be a bunch of dissipating emotions, anyway?
Now, if this had taken place in, say, an area of Warpspace, it would be a different story. But if that was the case, then Mortarion's body wouldn't have stayed behind as he was already in the warp at the time of his defeat, which means he couldn't be banished...
You see the problem this whole thing opens up?

Who's to say that their material bodies wern't being sustained by the various warp rifts that were open across the planet and only their conciousness returned through the rift?

Even if they were all closed at the end of the battle, the daemon bodies would have been saturated with Warp Energies: it also explains how daemons can survive outside of the warp after all their conduits have been closed.

The planet in which Mortarion was on was likely riven with similar warp storms/rifts, allowing his material body to remain in existence.

You see how problems can be solved when you take a deeper look into them?

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
And yet in other codexes, such as the CSM and Chaos Daemons one, daemons are given as being inherently unstable, and (get this) requiring immense amounts of energy invested in them just to stay tangible in the material universe. It makes no sense for them to exist afterwards, once the consciousness of said daemons has returned to the Warp and there is therefore nothing holding the body together. How can you burn wat at that point would be a bunch of dissipating emotions, anyway?
Now, if this had taken place in, say, an area of Warpspace, it would be a different story. But if that was the case, then Mortarion's body wouldn't have stayed behind as he was already in the warp at the time of his defeat, which means he couldn't be banished...
You see the problem this whole thing opens up?

Who's to say that their material bodies wern't being sustained by the various warp rifts that were open across the planet and only their conciousness returned through the rift?

Even if they were all closed at the end of the battle, the daemon bodies would have been saturated with Warp Energies: it also explains how daemons can survive outside of the warp after all their conduits have been closed.

The planet in which Mortarion was on was likely riven with similar warp storms/rifts, allowing his material body to remain in existence.

You see how problems can be solved when you take a deeper look into them?

No, not really, given that a daemon's consciousness is intrinsically linked to it's physical form, and that the daemons have to will themselves to stay in existence.

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

No, not really, given that a daemon's consciousness is intrinsically linked to it's physical form, and that the daemons have to will themselves to stay in existence.

Not when they are being sustained by the Warp itself.

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

No, not really, given that a daemon's consciousness is intrinsically linked to it's physical form, and that the daemons have to will themselves to stay in existence.

Not when they are being sustained by the Warp itself.

Iranna.

But that's the point. It would make no sense for a GK to stop and burn a body whilst there were still rifts for functional daemons to come through, and once they'd closed the rift, the bodies would have dissipated, taking care of the problem. From what I've read of the GK, that'd be their priority, first and foremost. Even on a world with rifts, the daemons can only last so long as the rift is active, after all.

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

But that's the point. It would make no sense for a GK to stop and burn a body whilst there were still rifts for functional daemons to come through, and once they'd closed the rift, the bodies would have dissipated, taking care of the problem. From what I've read of the GK, that'd be their priority, first and foremost. Even on a world with rifts, the daemons can only last so long as the rift is active, after all.

You seemed to have ignored my post about daemons being able to sustain their bodies in real space without the aid of the warp, so I'll re-iterate it for you.

A daemon does not need the Warp to survive (granted it will not last long without it and will be severely weakened), it simply requires the energies of the warp, which are stored in its bodies, like energy in human beings.

When the energy runs out, then they dissipate.

However, if their bodies are still saturated with said energy, then you are able to burn said bodies as they still have a physical presence in real space.

Iranna.

**Lynata**

I actually consider it a tiny hobby of mine to look for explanations (read: excuses) for various GW descriptions that, at first glance, may seem a bit weird. But even with this approach one can only get so far until it becomes a hollow, transparent attempt at justifying BS out of principle.

To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a Mary Sue is just a Mary Sue."

Was the Jolanna story contained in the very same Codex as the Draigo bit, by the way? For if it comes from the same guy, then this would easily explain why it differs from the older descriptions. Maybe Ward just didn't bother to read up on the old stuff. Or maybe he just liked his own ideas better. Keep in mind that 40k as a whole has little consistence (though I am used to greater overlap amongst studio material) and the GKs as a whole have changed quite a bit with this book, it seems. Maybe daemons have changed, too.

Not that this would be of any consequence concerning Mortarion, given that - for whatever reason - he was not killed during this encounter in the first place.

**BeRzErKeR**

Iranna wrote:

You seemed to have ignored my post about daemons being able to sustain their bodies in real space without the aid of the warp, so I'll re-iterate it for you.

A daemon does not need the Warp to survive (granted it will not last long without it and will be severely weakened), it simply requires the energies of the warp, which are stored in its bodies, like energy in human beings.

When the energy runs out, then they dissipate.

However, if their bodies are still saturated with said energy, then you are able to burn said bodies as they still have a physical presence in real space.

Iranna.

Even if this is true (which it could be; it's reasonable, at least) it still doesn't answer two questions.

1) Where does it say that Mortarion was dead? In fact, it says he escaped later. That's an active statement, indicating that he took action to get away, which would sort of require him to be both alive and present.

2) What the feth was Draigo doing, practicing his graffiti skills on the internal organs of a Daemon-Primarch (whether dead or not) while there was work to be done? At the very least, he had clean-up and purging to be overseeing.

My point is, in order to justify this in any way you have to bend over backwards so far that your head is between your legs. It's a dumb piece of fluff; genuinely dumb. And once again, I'm NOT saying that because of the power levels involved, I'm saying that because it's badly written and poorly explained.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

But that's the point. It would make no sense for a GK to stop and burn a body whilst there were still rifts for functional daemons to come through, and once they'd closed the rift, the bodies would have dissipated, taking care of the problem. From what I've read of the GK, that'd be their priority, first and foremost. Even on a world with rifts, the daemons can only last so long as the rift is active, after all.

You seemed to have ignored my post about daemons being able to sustain their bodies in real space without the aid of the warp, so I'll re-iterate it for you.

A daemon does not need the Warp to survive (granted it will not last long without it and will be severely weakened), it simply requires the energies of the warp, which are stored in its bodies, like energy in human beings.

When the energy runs out, then they dissipate.

However, if their bodies are still saturated with said energy, then you are able to burn said bodies as they still have a physical presence in real space.

Iranna.

Wow, that was unnecessarily snarky.
And, incidentally, you seem to have ignored MY point about GK Priorities. Yes, a daemon works kinda like that, but if an active warp rift is on a planet, then it stands to reason that the GK would try to seal it first, itbeing the bigger threat because more active daemons can use it to enter the universe, before dealing with any leftover bodies - which, now that they are cut off from a renewable source of warp energy and (more importantly) the consciousness needed to keep said body stable and tangible, would dissipate.

**Iranna**

BeRzErKeR wrote:[

Even if this is true (which it could be; it's reasonable, at least) it still doesn't answer two questions.

1) Where does it say that Mortarion was dead? In fact, it says he escaped later. That's an active statement, indicating that he took action to get away, which would sort of require him to be both alive and present.

2) What the feth was Draigo doing, practicing his graffiti skills on the internal organs of a Daemon-Primarch (whether dead or not) while there was work to be done? At the very least, he had clean-up and purging to be overseeing.

My point is, in order to justify this in any way you have to bend over backwards so far that your head is between your legs. It's a dumb piece of fluff; genuinely dumb. And once again, I'm NOT saying that because of the power levels involved, I'm saying that because it's badly written and poorly explained.

It is.

1) It doesn't, but he doesn't need his body to escape; he is a daemon after all.

2) He just defeated a daemon-primarch and his bodyguards in single combat. I'm sure that he could allow himself 30 seconds to enact a measure of humiliation.

It doesn't matter how obscure the justification is, just that the point is justified, which it is. A dumb piece of fluff would have absolutely no explanation at all, which this has plenty of. People generally are just unwilling to look deeper into fluff if it doesn't make sense to them at first. Perhaps instead of wanting everything spelled out, people should utilise their own analysis; it'll help you immerse yourself into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment.

Iranna.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Wow, that was unnecessarily snarky.
And, incidentally, you seem to have ignored MY point about GK Priorities. Yes, a daemon works kinda like that, but if an active warp rift is on a planet, then it stands to reason that the GK would try to seal it first, itbeing the bigger threat because more active daemons can use it to enter the universe, before dealing with any leftover bodies - which, now that they are cut off from a renewable source of warp energy and (more importantly) the consciousness needed to keep said body stable and tangible, would dissipate.

It's the internet, grow a thicker skin, it'll come in handy.

You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.

Again, you seem to assume that once all rifts are closed that the warp energy dissipates immediately; it doesn't. Also, a daemon does not requite a conciousness to survive, it requires warp energy which it stores and absorbs.

De ja vu anyone?

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.

Again, you seem to assume that once all rifts are closed that the warp energy dissipates immediately; it doesn't. Also, a daemon does not requite a conciousness to survive, it requires warp energy which it stores and absorbs.

De ja vu anyone?

Iranna.

My agruments are based on evidence from the CSM and Chaos Daemons codexes, the previous CSM codex and a lot of BL stuff, all of which deal with the subject specifically in hand.
Not so much an assumption now, is it?
A daemon does need it's consciousness to survive outside of an area of direct warp energy, which is why they last at all outside of the warp; yes, they do so on limited time due to the lack of permanent energy, but warp energy is also inherently unstable, and requires more than a simple supply of it to form it into a coherent being. It requires the willpower of a daemon to stop said energy from taking some other, nonsentient form, or simply erupting and destroying things.

In the case of Mortarion, yes, I'd say that Draigo probably didn't need to worry about rifts, but at the same time if Mortarion wasn't killed by him, then his body would still have been functional. "He's a daemon" does not cover a reasonable method of escape; as long as his consciousness is bound to it, that body's the form he takes until banished.

**Lynata**

Iranna wrote:You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.

I would assume the other GK's around were simply dead, given that they did not join the battle. It would be weird to just stand in the corner and watch; this is a display of "duel honour" that might have a place in some ordinary Marine Chapters, but not with the Grey Knights as they were described.
Unless of course we assume that Draigo was a pimp and just went like "STAND BACK EVERYONE, this one is mine!"

Not that the presence of any warp rifts would matter, as Mortarion was still alive anyhow. Though I assume he would have escaped through one. Makes more sense than him running to a lander.

**BeRzErKeR**

Iranna wrote:

It is.

1) It doesn't, but he doesn't need his body to escape; he is a daemon after all.

2) He just defeated a daemon-primarch and his bodyguards in single combat. I'm sure that he could allow himself 30 seconds to enact a measure of humiliation.

It doesn't matter how obscure the justification is, just that the point is justified, which it is. A dumb piece of fluff would have absolutely no explanation at all, which this has plenty of. People generally are just unwilling to look deeper into fluff if it doesn't make sense to them at first. Perhaps instead of wanting everything spelled out, people should utilise their own analysis; it'll help you immerse yourself into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment.

Right.

First off; I don't particularly believe that I need to see things your way in order to " immerse [my]self into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment", thanks all the same. I can have a perfectly deep 'understanding' of the grimdark future while still rolling my eyes when GW gets carried away and vomits something ridiculous onto the page. Your superciliousness is not particularly appreciated.

Secondly; It does, in fact, matter how much effort you have to go to in order to explain something; or rather, it matters what kind of effort you have to go to. It's perfectly fine for something to have an obscure reason that reaches ties back into previous stories and requires you to know a lot about the background of the players involved; that's interesting. It's NOT perfectly fine if in order to try and drag a possible (and, honestly, still not particularly convincing) justification out you have to handwave things and assume facts that the author doesn't give you any evidence for.

The Wazzdakka story about the Titan, for instance; yeah, there are possible explanations. Maybe the Titan was already damaged. Maybe Wazzdakka had a kustom void-shield distorter with him. Maybe the energy field of a power klaw shorts out void shields briefly when they come in contact. Maybe this particular Princeps was incredibly arrogant and always wanted a good view, explaining why his cockpit was apparently covered in glass, and maybe Wazzdakka has rocket thrusters on his bike to let him steer. All things that could explain what happened.

But that doesn't change the fact that the story is stupid. And the fact that you can come up with a couple possible ways this could maybe have happened, likewise, don't make the story any less unintelligent.

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
My agruments are based on evidence from the CSM and Chaos Daemons codexes, the previous CSM codex and a lot of BL stuff, all of which deal with the subject specifically in hand.
Not so much an assumption now, is it?
A daemon does need it's consciousness to survive outside of an area of direct warp energy, which is why they last at all outside of the warp; yes, they do so on limited time due to the lack of permanent energy, but warp energy is also inherently unstable, and requires more than a simple supply of it to form it into a coherent being.

In which case, quote it. If you don't quote then I and everyone else must assume that you are being speculative.

Daemons are created by their patron. They then gift the daemon with a body to reside in. The body can still remain when the conciousness does not, think of the body as a house. The house does not collapse when you leave for work. However, this house can be animated by these "unstable" energies without the need for a concious will ebbing it on.

Iranna.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:
Iranna wrote:You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.
I would assume the other GK's around were simply dead, given that they did not join the battle. It would be weird to just stand in the corner and watch; this is a display of "duel honour" that might have a place in some ordinary Marine Chapters, but not with the Grey Knights as they were described.
Unless of course we assume that Draigo was a pimp and just went like "STAND BACK EVERYONE, this one is mine!"

Not that the presence of any warp rifts would matter, as Mortarion was still alive anyhow. Though I assume he would have escaped through one. Makes more sense than him running to a lander.

Many Space Marines value the honour of a duel and refuse to intervene as it is dishonourable.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Right.

First off; I don't particularly believe that I need to see things your way in order to " immerse [my]self into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment", thanks all the same. I can have a perfectly deep 'understanding' of the grimdark future while still rolling my eyes when GW gets carried away and vomits something ridiculous onto the page. Your superciliousness is not particularly appreciated.

Secondly; It does, in fact, matter how much effort you have to go to in order to explain something; or rather, it matters what kind of effort you have to go to. It's perfectly fine for something to have an obscure reason that reaches ties back into previous stories and requires you to know a lot about the background of the players involved; that's interesting. It's NOT perfectly fine if in order to try and drag a possible (and, honestly, still not particularly convincing) justification out you have to handwave things and assume facts that the author doesn't give you any evidence for.

The Wazzdakka story about the Titan, for instance; yeah, there are possible explanations. Maybe the Titan was already damaged. Maybe Wazzdakka had a kustom void-shield distorter with him. Maybe the energy field of a power klaw shorts out void shields briefly when they come in contact. Maybe this particular Princeps was incredibly arrogant and always wanted a good view, explaining why his cockpit was apparently covered in glass, and maybe Wazzdakka has rocket thrusters on his bike to let him steer. All things that could explain what happened.

But that doesn't change the fact that the story is stupid. And the fact that you can come up with a couple possible ways this could maybe have happened, likewise, don't make the story any less unintelligent.

No, you don't need to. It'd be beneficial if you did but that's your decision of course.

It really does not, all that matters is that it can be explained. Your argument was that it didn't make sense. With my reasoning, it makes sense. Regardless of how far-fetched it may be, it fits. I have already said that I'm using my own analysis - you have just as much input as I.

Here, you use the exact same logic as I, using your own analysis to come to conclusions.

You can think that and you're just as right as me. I simply believe that the story makes sense.

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
My agruments are based on evidence from the CSM and Chaos Daemons codexes, the previous CSM codex and a lot of BL stuff, all of which deal with the subject specifically in hand.
Not so much an assumption now, is it?
A daemon does need it's consciousness to survive outside of an area of direct warp energy, which is why they last at all outside of the warp; yes, they do so on limited time due to the lack of permanent energy, but warp energy is also inherently unstable, and requires more than a simple supply of it to form it into a coherent being.

In which case, quote it. If you don't quote then I and everyone else must assume that you are being speculative.
Daemons are created by their patron. They then gift the daemon with a body to reside in. The body can still remain when the conciousness does not, think of the body as a house. The house does not collapse when you leave for work. However, this house can be animated by these "unstable" energies without the need for a concious will ebbing it on.

Why? You didn't quote yours.

Also, though the analogy you're giving is actually a pretty good one, it's more correct to view the daemon's body as an extremely unstable and dangerous nuclear facility. Once the staff is gone (in the form of consciousness, if you don't mind an awful metaphor) there's nobody there to stop the thing detonating. It's the same with warp energy; once daemonic consciousness is gone, it unravels, usually failry violently, as there's nothing controlling the stability of the form. This is discussed in the CSM codex, though you may have to wait for a citation whilst I find it. It's probably under my ork stuff somewhere.

**Draigo**

After previous fluff I think you guys are putting too much into this for the sake of primarch in his name. Theres been countess feats in 40k killing daemon princes and other various beasties by men or marine that is beyond their station.

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Why? You didn't quote yours.

Also, though the analogy you're giving is actually a pretty good one, it's more correct to view the daemon's body as an extremely unstable and dangerous nuclear facility. Once the staff is gone (in the form of consciousness, if you don't mind an awful metaphor) there's nobody there to stop the thing detonating. It's the same with warp energy; once daemonic consciousness is gone, it unravels, usually failry violently, as there's nothing controlling the stability of the form. This is discussed in the CSM codex, though you may have to wait for a citation whilst I find it. It's probably under my ork stuff somewhere.

Because I'm not quoting anything, I am being speculative and using my own analysis to provide an explanation.

I'll wait.

Iranna.

**AlmightyWalrus**

I'm ASSUMING that the other Grey Knights didn't help him because they were tied up banishing the other daemons.

**DarknessEternal**

Well, it's obvious at this time that a lot of posters in this thread are not aware of background material, and they also violently wish to remain ignorant of it.

No point in ever discussing this again.

**Iranna**

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, it's obvious at this time that a lot of posters in this thread are not aware of background material, and they also violently wish to remain ignorant of it.

No point in ever discussing this again.

Go ahead, enlighten us.

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Why? You didn't quote yours.

Also, though the analogy you're giving is actually a pretty good one, it's more correct to view the daemon's body as an extremely unstable and dangerous nuclear facility. Once the staff is gone (in the form of consciousness, if you don't mind an awful metaphor) there's nobody there to stop the thing detonating. It's the same with warp energy; once daemonic consciousness is gone, it unravels, usually failry violently, as there's nothing controlling the stability of the form. This is discussed in the CSM codex, though you may have to wait for a citation whilst I find it. It's probably under my ork stuff somewhere.

Because I'm not quoting anything, I am being speculative and using my own analysis to provide an explanation.

I'll wait.

Iranna.

Sorry about the wait, lots of sprues and all to shift.
Anyway, in the previous CSM Codex, the daemons had a special rule to reflect the fact that they had to control their own stability. It was called, rather logically, Daemonic Instability.
Basically, according to it, when on the losing side of combat the stress of maintaining their physical presence can become too much for daemons, and so their forms dispel and they may return to the warp.
A direct quote to support it:
"Whilst this grants them a considerable degree of power it also means that they struggle to maintain their presence in the real universe."
I will say that the quote is somewhat interpretable, though; I personally take both it and the rule to mean that a daemon needs to maintain it's form with it's own willpower, even if that is the form it's summoners 'granted' it.

Honestly, at this stage, it's kinda clear that any real debating has sort of run it's course; I've made my case, and you've made yours. Ultimately, my opinion still stands that it would have been more fitting to give the duel a bigger write-up, as it does sound like one of those epic duels that 40K has done well in the past, but I can appreciate that Ward had a limited amount of space in which do write Draigo's fluff in.

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Sorry about the wait, lots of sprues and all to shift.
Anyway, in the previous CSM Codex, the daemons had a special rule to reflect the fact that they had to control their own stability. It was called, rather logically, Daemonic Instability.
Basically, according to it, when on the losing side of combat the stress of maintaining their physical presence can become too much for daemons, and so their forms dispel and they may return to the warp.
A direct quote to support it:
"Whilst this grants them a considerable degree of power it also means that they struggle to maintain their presence in the real universe."
I will say that the quote is somewhat interpretable, though; I personally take both it and the rule to mean that a daemon needs to maintain it's form with it's own willpower, even if that is the form it's summoners 'granted' it.

Honestly, at this stage, it's kinda clear that any real debating has sort of run it's course; I've made my case, and you've made yours. Ultimately, my opinion still stands that it would have been more fitting to give the duel a bigger write-up, as it does sound like one of those epic duels that 40K has done well in the past, but I can appreciate that Ward had a limited amount of space in which do write Draigo's fluff in.

Unfortunately, that rule is no longer used so I'm afraid that it doesn't really have any validity today; it's been replaced by newer material. Strictly speaking, tabletop rules can't be relied upon in a debate such as this because many do not represent what actually happens in the fluff.

I completely agree that it should have had a story dedicated to the paragraph itself similar to the length of the "Purging of Jollana", it could have perhaps prevented this thread.

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Iranna wrote:

I completely agree that it should have had a story dedicated to the paragraph itself similar to the length of the "Purging of Jollana", it could have perhaps prevented this thread.

Iranna.

I think there's no "Could have" about it. People would be making threads complaining about different things, if so.

**Iranna**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

I think there's no "Could have" about it. People would be making threads complaining about different things, if so.

I concur.

Iranna.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Ultimately, my opinion still stands that it would have been more fitting to give the duel a bigger write-up, as it does sound like one of those epic duels that 40K has done well in the past, but I can appreciate that Ward had a limited amount of space in which do write Draigo's fluff in.

Be careful what you wish for. In the "limited amount of space" provided Ward does not describe anything resembling an "epic duel" at all. What he describes is a super badass beating up a primarch and all his toughest minions singlehandedly without breaking a sweat. Given more space Ward would undoubtedly have simply used it to elaborate on how a sobbing Mortarion begged the mighty Draigo to spare his life before fleeing in disgrace, leaving behind only a puddle of urine.

**Macok**

I do dislike this Draigo entry too.
I really don't mind the outcome but the style is just painful. Some stupid grenade has better and more detailed entry than two almost god like immortal beings ditching it out.
I think it should be handled in two ways:

a) The drama, the struggle, blood, tears, force of spirit/will, luck, skill, rage, preparation, emotion! I mean this entry:

daveNYC wrote:The focus on the term Worfing isn't that it makes the victor look awesome, it's that it cheapens and degrades the character that is being Worfed. Avatars are supposed to be walking iron skinned, magma blooded, manifestations of the Eldar god of murder. Pretty impressive until you remember the bit where Calgar just punches one to death. Hard to take as seriously after that. Same thing for Mortarion, he's the chosen champion of Nurgle, the immortal power of decay fused with a being created to be humanity's champion by the Emperor himself. One of the twenty strongest beings every in existance in this galaxy, fallen into darkness and become stronger because of it. And he got beat up and vandalized by single Grey Knight because he was winded after fighting the guy's boss.

Bolded for awesomeness. I mean Draigo could as easily be fighting a plank with a face painted on it.

b) Absolutely no description at all. Yes and I mean it. Why are people not raging about Maugan Ra vs Tyranids? (I know, because people really don't care about the Eldar

) But also because there is soooo much room for interpretations and external factors.

Draigo entry is the worst middle ground between those two. Too long and detailed for 'historical note' / too easy, clean and boring for a description of demigods fighting.

**Durza**

A problem with the 'Mortarion left his corpse behind' argument for me is that I've always understood a daemons prince to be a mortal transformed to a being as powerful as a Greater Daemon by the Chaos powers. They rely on the Warp to survive, but they are still tied to their original mortal body in its new form. Of course, the only thing I'm basing that on is the fluff at the end of the 3rd ed codex about the transformation of a CSM to daemon prince, so I'm probably entirely wrong.