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Since the HT/Swarmlord (and Carnifexes for that matter) are not always units consisting of 1 model, an IC can join them.

Nice one. Cheers big man!

You will find many people who don't agree with you on this.

The rule, while certainly ambiguous, is clearly supposed to prevent you from joining an IC to units that in their unit entry only ever consist of a single model.

To use the idea of: 'well if it is possible to join said model in any possible way then this invalidates the rule' is just silly.

Because frankly they could make a model in the future that could have a special rule that allows it to join any unit with no restrictions whatsoever. And then then in Apocalypse games that model could join any unit in any codex. And then the argument becomes: well, every model can theoretically be joined so therefore said rule has no literal application.


The fact is, a Hive Tyrant is a unit that is only ever comprised of a single model until it joins Tyrant Guard. So when that happens, it can be joined by a Prime. But until that happens it cannot.

Awww...

"is clearly supposed to prevent you from joining an IC to units that in their unit entry only ever consist of a single model"

So a single Mordrak cannot be joined?
I wholeheartedly disagree with this; the rule is very clear. Is the unit only *ever* composed of one model? If the answer is "yes' then you cannot join it; if "no", you may join it.

You cannot answer yes to either Mordrak or a HT.

A HT is allowed to join a Tyrant Guard unit as if it were an IC. The HT as a unit only ever consists of one model.

As nosferatu says, the same situation exists with Mordrak.

Here is one of the discussions that has been done on this before:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/382631.page

kmdl1066 wrote:As nosferatu says, the same situation exists with Mordrak.

Here is one of the discussions that has been done on this before:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/382631.page

And in that thread the only mention of the HT joining an IC is poo-pooed, even by Nosferatu himself.


There is most definitely a difference between Mordrak and the Hive Tyrant's situation. Mordrak's own rules explain that he can be fielded as an upgrade character for a unit and he starts the game with said unit.

A Hive Tyrant is allowed to JOIN a unit like an IC and that rule is provided by the Tyrant Guard and not the Tyrant. So a Tyrant is always a single model unit...Its just that he has the ability to join another unit, which is different from Mordrak.

yakface wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:As nosferatu says, the same situation exists with Mordrak.

Here is one of the discussions that has been done on this before:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/382631.page

And in that thread the only mention of the HT joining an IC is poo-pooed, even by Nosferatu himself.


There is most definitely a difference between Mordrak and the Hive Tyrant's situation. Mordrak's own rules explain that he can be fielded as an upgrade character for a unit and he starts the game with said unit.

A Hive Tyrant is allowed to JOIN a unit like an IC and that rule is provided by the Tyrant Guard and not the Tyrant. So a Tyrant is always a single model unit...Its just that he has the ability to join another unit, which is different from Mordrak.

I agree with this. You cannot ever buy Mordrak as a single-model unit; a Hive Tyrant you can.

puma713 wrote:I agree with this. You may never buy Mordrak as a single-model unit. A Hive Tyrant you can.

Where's the requirement to purchase Ghost Knights?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:I agree with this. You may never buy Mordrak as a single-model unit. A Hive Tyrant you can.

Where's the requirement to purchase Ghost Knights?

In the fact that they appear when he suffers a wound. It is a requirement, not a choice.

There is always a chance that he may be joined by another Ghost Knight. Always.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:I agree with this. You may never buy Mordrak as a single-model unit. A Hive Tyrant you can.

Where's the requirement to purchase Ghost Knights?

In the fact that they appear when he suffers a wound. It is a requirement, not a choice.

There is always a chance that he may be joined by another Ghost Knight. Always.

He's guaranteed to take a wound in every battle?

I'm not disagreeing with your statements overall - just pointing out poor word choices. "You may never buy" is incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with your statements overall - just pointing out poor word choices. "You may never buy" is incorrect.

? But it is true. He is never a single-model unit. So he may never be purchased as one.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not disagreeing with your statements overall - just pointing out poor word choices. "You may never buy" is incorrect.

? But it is true. He is never a single-model unit. So he may never be purchased as one.

He absolutely is. "... at which point he reverts to a single model unit in his own right." Meaning that without the Ghost Knights, he is a single model unit. You are not required to purchase the Ghost Knights, therefore the statement "You may never buy" is incorrect.
That's in addition to the fact that he's a Unique Infantry Character without the Ghost Knights - exactly the same as Crowe.
They're both single model units when purchased, with the exception of Mordrak being able to purchase (and become an upgrade character for) Ghost Knights.

Yes - he can be joined by an IC.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not disagreeing with your statements overall - just pointing out poor word choices. "You may never buy" is incorrect.

? But it is true. He is never a single-model unit. So he may never be purchased as one.

He absolutely is. "... at which point he reverts to a single model unit in his own right." Meaning that without the Ghost Knights, he is a single model unit.

Context much? It does not mean "without his Ghost Knights, he is a single model unit." Quote all of the relevant text:

"Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such a point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right."

There are two ways to purchase Mordrak. Mordrak with his Ghost Knights (and automatically forming a unit with them), or Mordrak alone (with the chance that he may be joined by a Ghost Knight at some point in the game). Neither of these are a single-model in his own right. The only time that Mordrak ever becomes a single model in his own right is when his entire unit, save him, is destroyed. So, you may never buy him as a single-model unit. Ever.

rigeld2 wrote:You are not required to purchase the Ghost Knights, therefore the statement "You may never buy" is incorrect.

No, it is not, as demonstrated above.

Not that this is even important to the discussion - how you buy him. What is important is that Hive Tyrants do -not- function this way. If you leave Tyrant Guard out of your army list, there is no chance that a Hive Tyrant may be joined by an IC.

If Mordrak is having a particularly bad day and his purchased retinu... sorry, group of knights who although called a bodyguard and he cannot leave them is not a retinue, are all dead he still has the requirement to have a ghost knight turn up when he gets a wound right ?

If so he is never a guaranteed single model unit?

I don't think there would be a problem with a IC joinng the Tyrant + Hive Guard. And there wouldn't be a problem joining a IC to Mordrak + Ghost knights. No one can argue that Hive guard and Ghost knights are single model units. Just make sure you have those conditions (Joining the Ghostknights/Hiveguard) and you will see no rules arguments.

Magpie wrote:If Mordrak is having a particularly bad day and his purchased retinu... sorry, group of knights who although called a bodyguard and he cannot leave them is not a retinue, are all dead he still has the requirement to have a ghost knight turn up when he gets a wound right ?

If so he is never a guaranteed single model unit?

He cannot leave them because he is not an IC. He doesnt lose his IC status when they ar epurchased, unlike a real retinue, and is not an IC so is not allowed to reference the retinue rules.

Yak - when the HT joins a TG, is he now a unit composed of 1 model? No. He is a unit composed of 2 - 4 models.

Whatever

Magpie wrote:Whatever

Except we know, for a fact, that it isnt a retinue. The whole unit is worth 1KP. Tht disallows it from being a retinue

Youre arguing against what the rules literally are telling you.

I must say i am somewhat over this whole "those are the rules" type response offered around here to questions regarding items which are open to interpretation. If the rules where that clear these forums would be empty of the spirited debates we see.

The only thing that can be said with any certainty is that the 40K rule book contains a great deal of uncertainty.

This kill point thing is a good example. I don't know how anyone can put forward such a firm assertion based on a ruling that actually contradicts itself within 4 questions.

Does Mordrak and his knights get a kill point each? NO ! Upgrade characters cannot get a kill point.

This applies to Mordrak even tho' he becomes his own single model unit after his mates are dead

Couple of questions later:

Does Justicar Thawn and his squad get a kill point each? YES ! he does , despite being an upgrade character, because when he comes back from the dead he is his own single model unit........

It isnt a contradiction, when you bother to read the full Thawn entry

Thawn specifies this is a separate, newly created unit. Mordrak does not, just it is again a single model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - when the HT joins a TG, is he now a unit composed of 1 model? No. He is a unit composed of 2 - 4 models.

Given that it's the Tyrant Guard's rules that allow a Hive Tyrant to join, I'd argue that it's the TG unit comprising 2-4 models. The Hive Tyrant "unit" always consists of a single model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt a contradiction, when you bother to read the full Thawn entry

Thawn specifies this is a separate, newly created unit. Mordrak does not, just it is again a single model.

Single model unit in his own right, which I see puts the FAQ at odds with itself.

Nothing either of us has to say is going to change the fact that we disagree, drop it and let's move on.

I think so too. If it comes up in games we will just roll off or something.

Deadshot wrote:I think so too. If it comes up in games we will just roll off or something.

To be honest mate the situation for any of this to be a problem is probably so rare that it will never happen.
But I'm with you, roll the dice , swear or cheer and get on with it.

It was actually for a nice 2 HQ deathstar thing. Parasite+Swarmlord? Cool Right?

Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - when the HT joins a TG, is he now a unit composed of 1 model? No. He is a unit composed of 2 - 4 models.

Given that it's the Tyrant Guard's rules that allow a Hive Tyrant to join, I'd argue that it's the TG unit comprising 2-4 models. The Hive Tyrant "unit" always consists of a single model.

The HT is a unit of 2-4, same as the TG are a unit of 1 - 4

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - when the HT joins a TG, is he now a unit composed of 1 model? No. He is a unit composed of 2 - 4 models.

Given that it's the Tyrant Guard's rules that allow a Hive Tyrant to join, I'd argue that it's the TG unit comprising 2-4 models. The Hive Tyrant "unit" always consists of a single model.

The HT is a unit of 2-4, same as the TG are a unit of 1 - 4

I don't think so.

Try it this way:
P1: The Hive Tyrant is not an IC.
P2: "Shieldwall" lets a HT join Tyrant Guard as if it were an IC.
P3: p. 48 describes all manner of rules about ICs joining and leaving units.

C1: When an IC joins a unit of type X, the resulting entity is STILL a unit of type X.
C2: When a HT joins TG, it's still a unit of TG.

The discussion about ICs joining other units is ALWAYS phrased that way - it's never a unit joining an IC, but always the IC becoming part of the joined unit. So in the case of a Hive Tyrant, it's always a single-model unit; when it's joined to Tyrant Guard, it's no longer a "unit" of Hive Tyrant at all.