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Honestly, the vanquisher was great in the 3rd edition codex .... can switch between normal shells and AT shells, got vet crew..... it was win win .. its had 96 range too lol not like that was really helpful

to make it viable again, why not the following;

0 - 1 Vanquisher (basic cost) = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT ammo, veteran crew ( giving it the acegunner ability from the old armored company list ie re-roll misses if you roll a 1 and re-roll scatter dice if you choose. In addition it ignores the crew shaken results ), co-axle storm bolter and lascannon on the hull, smoke launcher and searchlight

can be upgraded with sponsors etc...

then if you wanna be mean you add knight commander for total of 250 pts...

Nowerdays its just a long range meltagun with a less than 50% chance of hitting unless you take the knight commander - what the frak is the point I ask !??! It has no place in the battlefield for an IG army

The Orks have always dealt with BS2. I think you can deal with BS3.

no, too much


Either:
Let it fire regular Str8 AP 3 shells
AND
Twin link the 8+2d6 shot
OR
Make the 8+2d6 AP2 a large blast, but only the center gets the Str8 AP2, everything else gets Str5 ap 5.

When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

my 2 vanquishers do rather well.

my first one "Longsword" has killed lots of enemy armor and was always deployed when a Landraider or something was on the opposite side to crack it open.

my second "Dead Eye" kinda switches between roles of Battle tank or vanquisher depending on battle (and stays in the role mind you once decided), but as a vanquisher has plenty of armor kills.

at the least if a vanquisher could fire HE rounds at the trade off of the super pen and be able to switch back and forth between HE and the Super Pen AP rounds it would be awesome.

maybe a small blast for the vanquisher HE to keep battle tanks viable. the HE rounds being used for when armored targets (vehicales) are not present and only when infantry present themselves.

Ex; Longsword cracks open a LandRaider and the infantry spill out. when it can fire again it fires the small blast at the infantry to kill them instead of the single Ap round along side the rest of the tanks with templates. the infantry type is not relevant.

sumi808 wrote:
0 - 1 Vanquisher (basic cost) = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT
can be upgraded with sponsors etc...

And higher speed would increase the damage of an explosive shell because...?

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

I've had 3 lines of thinking on this one.

1. Play up the role as a command tank and give it an upgrade to increase some of it's statistics that you can purchase for it. Sort of like the knight commander, but maybe not a named character given that you want your best to be providing the essential firing solution. Maybe it can also select targets discretely from it's squadron with the upgrade.

2. Add something like +1 to the penetration roll or something when hitting a tank. Or have it do double wounds to an MC?

3. This one is trickier to implement. Giving it multiple ammo rounds would be interesting. I was thinking one would be good at penetrating armor and one would put wounds on transported units when it penetrates. This would take a lot of testing and balancing.

All of these might require some re-costing.

LunaHound wrote:

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

Chance of it hitting = 50%, chance of cover save = 50%.
So you're looking at 25% on top of the armour penetration roll.
Yeah, no, Vanquishers suck.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

Chance of it hitting = 50%, chance of cover save = 50%.
So you're looking at 25% on top of the armour penetration roll.
Yeah, no, Vanquishers suck.

You are only looking at half the pic.

That vanquisher pretty much forced the enemy armors to be scared and hiding instead of roaming around.

Yes Vanquishers does not suck.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

Chance of it hitting = 50%, chance of cover save = 50%.
So you're looking at 25% on top of the armour penetration roll.
Yeah, no, Vanquishers suck.

Congratulations you just described a problem that affects all of the units nowadays (cover) and made it into a specific problem of the Vanquisher, I really think that instead of changing the Vanquisher we should change how cover works

jgehunter wrote:

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

Chance of it hitting = 50%, chance of cover save = 50%.
So you're looking at 25% on top of the armour penetration roll.
Yeah, no, Vanquishers suck.

Congratulations you just described a problem that affects all of the units nowadays (cover) and made it into a specific problem of the Vanquisher, I really think that instead of changing the Vanquisher we should change how cover works

Or you could change how many points you are expected to commit to an unreliable highly specialized problem solver.

"hello, no one knows what im going to shot at, but no amount of armor is going to stop me"
That kind of has a lot of fear factor so i'm kind of on LunaHound side.

And there is always that chance its going to pop a monoltih or a landraider.

Nah - id take a regular LRBT over the current vanq - its cheaper and gets the job done almost as well

Monoliths and all those othe vehicles can be popped by veterans in chimera/vandettas or deep striking suicide storm troopers at lower cost or providing more flexible muscle

jgehunter wrote:

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

Chance of it hitting = 50%, chance of cover save = 50%.
So you're looking at 25% on top of the armour penetration roll.
Yeah, no, Vanquishers suck.

Congratulations you just described a problem that affects all of the units nowadays (cover) and made it into a specific problem of the Vanquisher, I really think that instead of changing the Vanquisher we should change how cover works

Cover is not a "problem" it's a part of the game.
Demolisher has a 75% chance of damaging AV14 and a much higher chance of getting the hull on a Land Raider, as well as being useful against infantry.

Joey wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

kinratha wrote:When I run the vanquisher it never fails to take out a land raider or something important first turn.

I know!!! I always go against opponent that fields 3, they destroy atleast 1 of my tank per turn ( of course starting with the most importatn ones )
They would hide in cover and shoot across the table sigh.....

Chance of it hitting = 50%, chance of cover save = 50%.
So you're looking at 25% on top of the armour penetration roll.
Yeah, no, Vanquishers suck.

Congratulations you just described a problem that affects all of the units nowadays (cover) and made it into a specific problem of the Vanquisher, I really think that instead of changing the Vanquisher we should change how cover works

Cover is not a "problem" it's a part of the game.
Demolisher has a 75% chance of damaging AV14 and a much higher chance of getting the hull on a Land Raider, as well as being useful against infantry.

Wait....

So did you factor in weapon range at all?
What rule makes Demolisher shots by pass cover save?

And I thought blast template only center get full str at center hole?

Yeah but the LR's hull size is huge.
And as an IG player I'd rather pop the enemy's transports (which will be rushing towards my lines) than their Anti-Tank or Artillery.
Land Raiders will struggle to get cover saves against *anything*, realistically.

The thing is, the Vanquisher is barely more powerful than 3 lascannons against AV14 (.27 damaging results vs. .25, assuming cover). Guess what's more expensive AND takes up a heavy support slot? If the lascannons are on a Vendetta or get twin-linked from orders, the cheaper lascannons are now WINNING.

IMHO to make the current Vanq good or at least worth it points is Co-axal hvy stubber as per the IA version - i'd take one.

Vanquisher should have a coaxial heavy stubber and be able to fire battle cannon shells in addition to anti tank shells like it used to in the armored company list.

Avariel wrote:Vanquisher should have a coaxial heavy stubber and be able to fire battle cannon shells in addition to anti tank shells like it used to in the armored company list.

That would be cool but it'd also have to be pretty damn expensive.

Just make the Vanquisher BS4. I don't take em because they never hit. Plop a lascannon and at BS4 it would be viable.

Vanquisher should have a coaxial heavy stubber and be able to fire battle cannon shells in addition to anti tank shells like it used to in the armored company list.

you give them the shell choice, unless it's like bastion breachers, and the basic LRBT become useless.

Give them the ability to ignore cover. Assume the high kenetic energy blast through the cover or something. But only on the main cannon.

You need a better title instead of 'Vanquisher Sucks' to 'My Vanquisher Idea'

If you don't like it then use something else. Perhaps lascannons.

Deadshot wrote:Give them the ability to ignore cover. Assume the high kenetic energy blast through the cover or something. But only on the main cannon.

I think it should work the other way. Give it something to boost the hit rate (coaxial Heavy Stubber which makes it twin-linked if it hits) and the likelihood of a kill if it penetrates (AP 1 perhaps), so that instead of forcing the enemy to kill it outright it forces them to hide.

Perhaps something like 170 Points base cost (or a 15 point upgrade to fire HE LRBT shells) so it can multi-purpose, with some other upgrades to increase accuracy (coaxial heavy stubber upgrade) and lethality (upgraded ammunition that makes it str 10 AP1 like bastion breacher rounds for the medusa). This way it could have a better chance of hitting and killing its target while being too expensive to spam in large number.

I don't think that Vanquishers need to ignore cover cover is what is between your all-of-a-sudden-squishy tanks and infantry when you play guard. Don't manticores already ignore cover w/ S10?

I think the Vanquisher was 175 points and had a coax heavy stubber and could shoot battle cannon shells along with anti tank shells in the old Armored Company list. It also had one less side armor as Leman Russes had side armor buffed from 12 to 13 in the 5th edition Guard book.

it sounds like what I wrote in my original post is what most people want to see happen