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RunningWithScissors wrote:I don't think that Vanquishers need to ignore cover cover is what is between your all-of-a-sudden-squishy tanks and infantry when you play guard. Don't manticores already ignore cover w/ S10?

Manticores don't ignore cover, though firing indirectly can help with this.
They are also AP4 so not terribly effective against all enemies.

sumi808 wrote:it sounds like what I wrote in my original post is what most people want to see happen

I still think most of your rules are too overpowered. Here is what I think.

Base Cost: 160 Points

Wargear
Vanquisher Cannon
Hull Heavy Bolter

AV
Front: 14
Side: 12
Rear: 10

Upgrades (that aren't already allowed)
Coaxial Heavy Stubber (if it hits the target first the Vanquisher cannon is twin-linked): 10 Points
Battle Cannon Shells (same strength and AP, perhaps 12" greater range due to the more powerful gun): 15 Points
Some sort of special penetrator shells (like long range Bastion Breacher shells w/ no blast): 10 Points
Perhaps some kind of targeter that boosts BS or forces the opponent to reroll sucessful cover saves: expensive, like 20+ points (probably shouldn't exist at all since it might be OP)

This ensures that the Vanquisher can be kitted out to more effectively do its job. You can take battle cannon shells so it won't be useless once the enemy armour is destroyed, you can take Special Penetrator shells to kill AV 14 on a 5+ with a 2D6 roll, and a coaxial to increase your hit percentage. While it makes the vanquisher a threat it can also get expensive fast, and can be largely defended against by heading into cover.

I think it just needs to be AP1. That would make it worth taking every time (even though I already do).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sumi808 wrote:
0 - 1 Vanquisher (basic cost) = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT
can be upgraded with sponsors etc...

And higher speed would increase the damage of an explosive shell because...?

ever heard of a sabot round? yeaaaah boi

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sumi808 wrote:
0 - 1 Vanquisher (basic cost) = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT
can be upgraded with sponsors etc...

And higher speed would increase the damage of an explosive shell because...?

ever heard of a sabot round? yeaaaah boi

In an armour-piercing round, sure. If you're trying to kill someone with an explosion, how does the projectile's speed increase the lethality of the explosion?


To quote you: "Yeaaah boi".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sumi808 wrote:
0 - 1 Vanquisher (basic cost) = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT
can be upgraded with sponsors etc...

And higher speed would increase the damage of an explosive shell because...?

ever heard of a sabot round? yeaaaah boi

In an armour-piercing round, sure. If you're trying to kill someone with an explosion, how does the projectile's speed increase the lethality of the explosion?


To quote you: "Yeaaah boi".

is he not saying drop the AP(armor piercing) from 3-2 reflecting longer barrel and thus higher velocity? and you would have the choice of that AP ammo and anti tank ammo, which a sabot round is. it does create an explosion when it impacts, albeit not a big explosion like a field artillery or ordnance weapon.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sumi808 wrote:
0 - 1 Vanquisher (basic cost) = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT
can be upgraded with sponsors etc...

And higher speed would increase the damage of an explosive shell because...?

ever heard of a sabot round? yeaaaah boi

In an armour-piercing round, sure. If you're trying to kill someone with an explosion, how does the projectile's speed increase the lethality of the explosion?


To quote you: "Yeaaah boi".

is he not saying drop the AP(armor piercing) from 3-2 reflecting longer barrel and thus higher velocity? and you would have the choice of that AP ammo and anti tank ammo, which a sabot round is. it does create an explosion when it impacts, albeit not a big explosion like a field artillery or ordnance weapon.

He's saying you'd have to choose between a R72" S8 AP2 round or an AT round, I was assuming that the S8 AP2 round referred to a Battlecannon round with higher AP because it's faster, which would be stupid. If it's not a Battlecannon round you would be choosing between an anti-tank round and an anti-tank round, which is a bit too much "department of reduncancy department"...

lordsolarkodiak wrote:
is he not saying drop the AP(armor piercing) from 3-2 reflecting longer barrel and thus higher velocity? and you would have the choice of that AP ammo and anti tank ammo, which a sabot round is. it does create an explosion when it impacts, albeit not a big explosion like a field artillery or ordnance weapon.

The problem with thinking of the "explosion" caused by APFSDS is because it really isn't an explosion. If it hits a tank or something it pretty much ignites the vehicle when it penetrates it and causes the ammo and fuel to blow up. That is modeled by a tank rolling a 6+ on the damage chart. If it hits the ground or something it won't so much create an explosion as it will just make a big hole and toss up a lot of dirt because of the energy.

As I said it should have two (perhaps have to pay extra for the second one as an upgrade) different shells, with perhaps a third super penetrator shell with stats like.

Vanquisher shells: As they already exist
Battle Cannon Shells: Strength 8, AP 3, Ordinance 1 Large Blast, 84" range (to simulate the higher velocity and whatnot)
Special Penetrator Shells: Strength 10, AP 1, Heavy 1 2D6 penetration roll, 72" range

anti-tank round and an anti-tank round, i like that lol. also, im getting back into the game after a good 9 year layoff and starting to grasp this edition and rules. does AP affect vehicles with armor? i haven't seen anything that says that it does in the BRB. if its not, then it doesn't justify the meaning imo.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:anti-tank round and an anti-tank round, i like that lol. also, im getting back into the game after a good 9 year layoff and starting to grasp this edition and rules. does AP affect vehicles with armor? i haven't seen anything that says that it does in the BRB. if its not, then it doesn't justify the meaning imo.

Only AP 1 and AP - effect vehicles. AP 1 gives +1 on the damage chart, AP - gives -1 on the damage chart.

As for the second anti-tank round, just think of it as specialist ammunition, like Kraken bolts scaled up by a lot compared to regular bolts scaled up by a lot. It is helpful, but if it was given for free with possible accuracy upgrades it would be OP since one would only need to roll a 5 to penetrate the armour with 2D6 and also have a 50/50 chance of killing the tank when it penetrates the armour. Besides real life tanks have various types of ammo, they can fire HEAT, APFSDS, and older guns could fire APFSDS and APDS (the latter has less penetration than the former).

Hi

To help clarify the at vs other round ammo querries, I did indeed say "ability to switch between 72" S8 AP2 (AP down from 3 to reflect longer barrel and thus higher velocity) ammo and AT ammo"

The AT ammo has the following characteristic; Strength 10 Heavy 1 , add 2D6 to strength when determining penetration and roll 2D6 for damage, pick the highest D6 to determine damage result.

The other ammo is the vanquishers normal ammo, but because of the longer barrel length this will generate more velocity so when it hits something it will penetrate its armor better. It is still a strength 8 ordinence round, but it has ap 2 instead of ap 3.

The original point of the vanquisher is that it is very rare and it was an exceptionally good tank killer that could take on LRBT standards role if need be. Ie the ability to change between rounds.

Thats why I have kept its original 0 - 1 limitation and made it so expensive - maybe its base cost should be 250 like a land raider and 300 if you wanna add knight commander

...that's the thing though: why would you ever fire the S8 AP2 round when you have one that is S10 AP1? If the AP2 cannon is supposed to be a blast akin to the battlecannon I again refer to the fact that a HE shell doesn't get a more poweful explosion just because it travels faster.

Because the s10 ap1 is a heavy not an ordinance or small blast template.

the s8 ap2 round is ordinence and used to kill units on foot

Maybe the points cost can go back to 200 and it has the at shells as well as normal s8 ap3 ordience blast shells

SO now it looks like this;

0 - 1 Vanquisher = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP3 ammo and AT ammo, veteran crew ( giving it the acegunner ability from the old armored company list ie re-roll misses if you roll a 1 for the at ammo and re-roll scatter dice if you choose for the regular ammo. In addition it ignores the crew shaken results ), co-axle storm bolter and lascannon on the hull, smoke launcher and searchlight. MAY NOT take side sponsors

The AT ammo has the following characteristic; Strength 10 Heavy 1 , add 2D6 to strength when determining penetration and roll 2D6 for damage, pick the highest D6 to determine damage result.

Then of course you can still add knight commander to it if you want

I'd drop the 2D6 pick highest for damage, it's a bit too powerful, especially when combined with AP1 and 2D6 to pen on a S10 shot. Looking good otherwise though.

Rg 72"+ Str 10, ap 1 and.2D6 to pen? That's better than.a.railgun!

Why.not just leave it Str 8 AP 1 but 2D6?

Deadshot wrote:Rg 72"+ Str 10, ap 1 and.2D6 to pen? That's better than.a.railgun!

Meet Mr. Bastion-breacher Shell then. It is only R48", but S10, AP1, rolls 2D6 for armour penetration and has Blast. And frankly, Vanquisher+BBS=WIN.

What people seem to be forgetting is that the Vanquisher is a psycological weapon. its not its stats its the "i can crush 1 veihcle a turn so do you really want to chance it?" effect on enemy armour that it has. its the fact that all your opponent sees is something that can swat his veihcles with impunity and is virtualy untouchable. sudenly things like landraiders are far less cocky than they were and transports dont rush around the tabletop with impunity. its a dedicated tank hunter and an extremely nasty one at that.

sumi808 wrote:Because the s10 ap1 is a heavy not an ordinance or small blast template.

the s8 ap2 round is ordinence and used to kill units on foot

Maybe the points cost can go back to 200 and it has the at shells as well as normal s8 ap3 ordience blast shells

SO now it looks like this;

0 - 1 Vanquisher = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP3 ammo and AT ammo, veteran crew ( giving it the acegunner ability from the old armored company list ie re-roll misses if you roll a 1 for the at ammo and re-roll scatter dice if you choose for the regular ammo. In addition it ignores the crew shaken results ), co-axle storm bolter and lascannon on the hull, smoke launcher and searchlight. MAY NOT take side sponsors

The AT ammo has the following characteristic; Strength 10 Heavy 1 , add 2D6 to strength when determining penetration and roll 2D6 for damage, pick the highest D6 to determine damage result.

Then of course you can still add knight commander to it if you want

I really do not like the stats. Beyond the fact that the AT ammo is way too OP with the AP1 and roll 2d6 for damage (if it penetrates it guarantees an immobilized result at least), I am getting way too much of an uber unit feel for it. Is it rare? Yes, but the Guard has plenty of "rare" weapons, the executioner only has a single forge world producing them. Overall I would suggest dropping the maximum of one (if someone wants to waste 600+ points on a squadron of vanquishers let them), and having more stuff as upgrades. For example

Upgrades
Battle Cannon Shells: Perhaps 10 points
Veteran Crew/Ace Gunner: 20 Points
Coaxial Storm Bolter (if it hits the vanquisher cannon is twin-linked): 10 Points
Side Armour (side armour increased to AV 14 and no sponsons): 50 Points
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Also perhaps boost the base cost to 165 points or so.

If it exists like that it would be able to have battle cannon shells, veteran crew, a coaxial storm bolter, and a hull lascannon for 220 points, a tad more than you wanted, while having no set limit. The main thing keeping it from being OP is that it is so expensive, and once all AV 14 armour is gone you pretty much have an overpriced Leman Russ.

Edit: I suggest you play test it with different rules. Play some friendly games with some people you know who will let you test it out and see how it goes. If a single one slays 3 land raiders by the end of the game it is probably OP, if it only immobilizes one Leman Russ and gets a few crew stunned results it is probably under powered. I would be really interested to see the results.

master of ordinance wrote:What people seem to be forgetting is that the Vanquisher is a psycological weapon. its not its stats its the "i can crush 1 veihcle a turn so do you really want to chance it?" effect on enemy armour that it has. its the fact that all your opponent sees is something that can swat his veihcles with impunity and is virtualy untouchable. sudenly things like landraiders are far less cocky than they were and transports dont rush around the tabletop with impunity. its a dedicated tank hunter and an extremely nasty one at that.

Except it is a pretty gakky psychological weapon. First it only has a 50% chance of hitting, and even if it does hit it only has like a 60% chance of penetrating AV 14, and even if it does penetrate it still only has a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle outright. Cover only compounds the problem even more.

Not everyone is a mathhammer veteran. Some just play what they like.

Deadshot wrote:Not everyone is a mathhammer veteran. Some just play what they like.

Perhaps, just saying there are more threatening things that the Guard has against tanks.

Buttons wrote:

sumi808 wrote:Because the s10 ap1 is a heavy not an ordinance or small blast template.

the s8 ap2 round is ordinence and used to kill units on foot

Maybe the points cost can go back to 200 and it has the at shells as well as normal s8 ap3 ordience blast shells

SO now it looks like this;

0 - 1 Vanquisher = 200 pts for that you get the ability to switch between 72" S8 AP3 ammo and AT ammo, veteran crew ( giving it the acegunner ability from the old armored company list ie re-roll misses if you roll a 1 for the at ammo and re-roll scatter dice if you choose for the regular ammo. In addition it ignores the crew shaken results ), co-axle storm bolter and lascannon on the hull, smoke launcher and searchlight. MAY NOT take side sponsors

The AT ammo has the following characteristic; Strength 10 Heavy 1 , add 2D6 to strength when determining penetration and roll 2D6 for damage, pick the highest D6 to determine damage result.

Then of course you can still add knight commander to it if you want

I really do not like the stats. Beyond the fact that the AT ammo is way too OP with the AP1 and roll 2d6 for damage (if it penetrates it guarantees an immobilized result at least), I am getting way too much of an uber unit feel for it. Is it rare? Yes, but the Guard has plenty of "rare" weapons, the executioner only has a single forge world producing them. Overall I would suggest dropping the maximum of one (if someone wants to waste 600+ points on a squadron of vanquishers let them), and having more stuff as upgrades. For example

Upgrades
Battle Cannon Shells: Perhaps 10 points
Veteran Crew/Ace Gunner: 20 Points
Coaxial Storm Bolter (if it hits the vanquisher cannon is twin-linked): 10 Points
Side Armour (side armour increased to AV 14 and no sponsons): 50 Points
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Also perhaps boost the base cost to 165 points or so.

If it exists like that it would be able to have battle cannon shells, veteran crew, a coaxial storm bolter, and a hull lascannon for 220 points, a tad more than you wanted, while having no set limit. The main thing keeping it from being OP is that it is so expensive, and once all AV 14 armour is gone you pretty much have an overpriced Leman Russ.

Edit: I suggest you play test it with different rules. Play some friendly games with some people you know who will let you test it out and see how it goes. If a single one slays 3 land raiders by the end of the game it is probably OP, if it only immobilizes one Leman Russ and gets a few crew stunned results it is probably under powered. I would be really interested to see the results.

master of ordinance wrote:What people seem to be forgetting is that the Vanquisher is a psycological weapon. its not its stats its the "i can crush 1 veihcle a turn so do you really want to chance it?" effect on enemy armour that it has. its the fact that all your opponent sees is something that can swat his veihcles with impunity and is virtualy untouchable. sudenly things like landraiders are far less cocky than they were and transports dont rush around the tabletop with impunity. its a dedicated tank hunter and an extremely nasty one at that.

Except it is a pretty gakky psychological weapon. First it only has a 50% chance of hitting, and even if it does hit it only has like a 60% chance of penetrating AV 14, and even if it does penetrate it still only has a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle outright. Cover only compounds the problem even more.

Not really. youve got to get in two minds about things like this. yours and your opponents. your opponent dosnt see a gacky tank they see it as an AT sniper. pretty terryfying to most veihcles.

Except if he actually knows the vehicle he would realize that the only threatening aspect is the range. Besides that it really isn't worth the points. The Hammerhead is better due to its AP 1, the Demolisher is probably better all around since it can kill pretty much any infantry, and the Medusa with Bastion Breacher shells is better than it in every aspect except range and armour. That isn't to say that it needs to be a super Russ that can kill anything on the battlefield. I don't mind it fulfilling a specialist role, I would just like it to be the best at that role. Every vehicle that is better or on par with it in terms of tank killing also has some anti-infantry capability. Hammerheads have submunitions, Medusas have regular shells.

After reading this thread, here's what I'm thinking:

Vanquisher is 155 points

Vanquisher Cannon is R96", Str 8 AP 1 Heavy 1. Against tanks, you gain an additional D6 when rolling for armor penetration

For an additional 10 points, you gain Battlecannon shells.

The Vanquisher is one of the most renowned tank hunters in the Imperial Armory. For more accuracy, you can take a Targeter for a further 10 points. With a targeter, you may reroll any 1's to hit with the main cannon. If you fire a blast weapon, you may subtract 1 from the scatter.

Vladsimpaler wrote:After reading this thread, here's what I'm thinking:

Vanquisher is 155 points

Vanquisher Cannon is R96", Str 8 AP 1 Heavy 1. Against tanks, you gain an additional D6 when rolling for armor penetration

For an additional 10 points, you gain Battlecannon shells.

The Vanquisher is one of the most renowned tank hunters in the Imperial Armory. For more accuracy, you can take a Targeter for a further 10 points. With a targeter, you may reroll any 1's to hit with the main cannon. If you fire a blast weapon, you may subtract 1 from the scatter.

I could probably roll with that, average penetration roll of 10.5 (assuming you mean 3D6 against tanks and 2D6 against everything else instead of 1D6 for everything and 2D6 against tanks) almost guarantees that tanks will be penetrated if they are hit, AP 1 makes it a 50/50 chance of killing the tank if you penetrate, and targeter makes it more accurate. I would fully endorse this idea assuming i interpreted 'rolling an extra D6 against tanks' correctly.

I'm not a fan of giving the Vanquisher multiple ammo rules (as nothing else in the IG codex gets that option, and it would most likely serve to render the LRBT redundant or the Vanquisher overpriced).

My preference would be to increase the vanquisher's value in its specialization, and for that I think the simplest way is to make the cannon heavy 2 (or even 3), which gives it reliable accuracy (1 hit per turn on average for 2 shots) to go with its reliable armour penetration.

My preference for this is based on using the Pask's Mailed Fist formation from apocalypse which gives LRBT squadrons a variation of the orders rules including one which allows them to fire their main cannon twice which makes for admirable vehicle killing power even in Apocalypse.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:I'm not a fan of giving the Vanquisher multiple ammo rules (as nothing else in the IG codex gets that option, and it would most likely serve to render the LRBT redundant or the Vanquisher overpriced).

My preference would be to increase the vanquisher's value in its specialization, and for that I think the simplest way is to make the cannon heavy 2 (or even 3), which gives it reliable accuracy (1 hit per turn on average for 2 shots) to go with its reliable armour penetration.

My preference for this is based on using the Pask's Mailed Fist formation from apocalypse which gives LRBT squadrons a variation of the orders rules including one which allows them to fire their main cannon twice which makes for admirable vehicle killing power even in Apocalypse.

Jack

The Vanquisher is just an elongated Battle Cannon, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to fire Battlecannon shells. It won't make the main Leman Russ obsolete especially since if you require an upgrade for the multiple Ammo, the Vanquisher ends up being a good 20 points more expensive than just taking a Battlecannon variant.

Making it Heavy 2 or 3 would be absolutely ridiculous and up the price by a good 50 points at the very least.

If the gun is so good that one extra shot is worth 50 points maybe it's good enough as it is

/sarcasm

As I said multiple ammo rules are not something anything else in the IG gets and that makes them feel out of place for units in the the list. Add on to that the it would become the default all comers choice and the most versatile Leman Russ and +20 is a bit too cheap for my thinking.

We clearly want it to change in different ways though, many folks want the 3rd ed version back, whereas I simply want it to be a bit better at what it is specialized for.

Jack

As much as I hate people who put their screen name at the end of a post, Jack is right. The Vanquisher is a specialized tank hunter, fluff wise it might be able to fire leman russ shells, but on the tabletop it shouldn't be able to without a very expensive upgrade. Think of it like this, lets say the Vanquisher still costs 155 points base, and battle cannon shells are just a 10 point upgrade. You could either take a plain Leman Russ for 150 points, or for 15 points more have a gun far better than a lascannon.

Also, making the cannon heavy 2 or 3 is a terrible idea. Yes it needs more accuracy, but that isn't the way to do it. Perhaps have a coaxial storm bolter or heavy stubber, perhaps have a targeter that allows rerolls or boosts the BS, but making it heavy 2 would be too much since if they both hit using the AP 1 strength 10 idea that Vlad considered the target will almost certainly die. Having AP 1 is one thing, having a 25% chance of hitting it with two practically autokill shots is too much.

Jackmojo wrote:If the gun is so good that one extra shot is worth 50 points maybe it's good enough as it is

/sarcasm

As I said multiple ammo rules are not something anything else in the IG gets and that makes them feel out of place for units in the the list. Add on to that the it would become the default all comers choice and the most versatile Leman Russ and +20 is a bit too cheap for my thinking.

We clearly want it to change in different ways though, many folks want the 3rd ed version back, whereas I simply want it to be a bit better at what it is specialized for.

Jack

I can see that you want a specialized version and that's totally cool. Personally I feel that it'd be cool if it could take Battlecannon shells. Maybe 10 points is too few, possibly +25 points would be better so that an "all comers" Vanquisher comes out to 180. 30 points more than a Russ. If you take 3 then you're down an additional 90 points, which you could use to purchase a Chimera or an Infantry squad.

There's nothing wrong with it as long as it's costed properly. I believe the main Leman Russ would still see use because you could take Sponsons, and then have something else as Anti-tank.

And again I have no problems with you wanting it to change in a different way, I'm just explaining why I think it would be more prudent is all.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:If the gun is so good that one extra shot is worth 50 points maybe it's good enough as it is

/sarcasm

As I said multiple ammo rules are not something anything else in the IG gets and that makes them feel out of place for units in the the list. Add on to that the it would become the default all comers choice and the most versatile Leman Russ and +20 is a bit too cheap for my thinking.

We clearly want it to change in different ways though, many folks want the 3rd ed version back, whereas I simply want it to be a bit better at what it is specialized for.

Jack

I can see that you want a specialized version and that's totally cool. Personally I feel that it'd be cool if it could take Battlecannon shells. Maybe 10 points is too few, possibly +25 points would be better so that an "all comers" Vanquisher comes out to 180. 30 points more than a Russ. If you take 3 then you're down an additional 90 points, which you could use to purchase a Chimera or an Infantry squad.

There's nothing wrong with it as long as it's costed properly. I believe the main Leman Russ would still see use because you could take Sponsons, and then have something else as Anti-tank.

And again I have no problems with you wanting it to change in a different way, I'm just explaining why I think it would be more prudent is all.

I think 25 might even be a bit too little. Regardless 10 points was way too little since it would have made a Vanquisher with a battle cannon the same price as a russ with a lascannon, and the former would be better against tanks.