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How do CSM "win"? Do the various factions have enough in common with one another so that one can say there is even a unified goal? If Abaddon took all of Cadia, what would happen next? If he made it to Terra and switched off the Golden Throne, what then?

For the purposes of "winning" 40k are CSM really a coherent faction or are they just a subset (and, when you think about it, a nearly insignificant subset) of Chaos Daemons? Put it another way, if CSM were the only manifestation of Chaos in realspace (that is, no daemonic incursions), how would you rate Chaos as a threat?

Breach the Cadian gate, Land on Terra And defile the Emperors corpse (that means no warp travel for the IOM). Then they would probably hunt down any last imperial forces, take revenge on loyal marine chapters and just turn on each other if there's nothing more evil to do.

Chaos is a threat to The human race as long as the IOM exists. The end part of Legion(HH novel) explains that and the entire INQ is to prevent that.

If the only goal of CSM is destruction of the IoM then destroying the IoM also means destroying the CSM as they will no longer have any purpose. A bit lame even by Tzeentchian paradoxical standards.

Going back to M31, Horus wanted to overthrow the Emperor so that _________.

Fill in the blank. Is that what CSM (or some or many or most CSM) still want?

So that he could rule the universe and make everyone do what he said.

Chaos Marines can't really have a unified endgame. Every Champion wants to be the #1 guy, and Abaddon keeps them something like "in line" through a combination of bribery and fear.

If the Black Crusade succeeded, Terra fell, and the Emperor was torn from the Golden Throne, the Chaos Legions would probably splinter more than ever (lacking a unified goal). The various warbands would go off doing their thing, spreading destruction and death as they went. They're quite as happy to fight each other for power as they are to fight the Imperium, so the Chaos Legions would probably disintegrate into hundreds or thousands of mini-empires, with populations split between killing themselves in the name of the dark gods and going to war against a rival warband's empire.

Manchu wrote:How do CSM "win"? Do the various factions have enough in common with one another so that one can say there is even a unified goal? If Abaddon took all of Cadia, what would happen next? If he made it to Terra and switched off the Golden Throne, what then?

For the purposes of "winning" 40k are CSM really a coherent faction or are they just a subset (and, when you think about it, a nearly insignificant subset) of Chaos Daemons? Put it another way, if CSM were the only manifestation of Chaos in realspace (that is, no daemonic incursions), how would you rate Chaos as a threat?

Those who threw themselves into ruin, are CSM.
They chose the unwinnable, the bitter and length path to their own demise.

The "victory" which is a possible goal of some of them, isn't more than a illusion.
Chaos is about personal gain, about disorder. So any "win" wouldn't last. They don't have a common goal except maybe the few who remember the time when they had to flee like little girls and think they deserve to have their vengeance.
Therefore hordes of chaos followers would aim for their own gains, and just a very small minority would care for this "unified goal".

Abaddon for example wants to beat the loyalists wherever he can, just to outperform Horus. Missing the fact his Primarch had the influence to mislead his opponents because they didn't know he turned and trusted him, something he never will be able to.
His plan may be to come to Terra, try to open the damaged webway gate and see it ruined...
Thus pure hatred without any hint on a longtime plan. Not sure if he even cared to survive it.

CSM in general are rare.
Taking the Demons out would just reduce the power of the cults. Less chaos influenced rebellions then.
CSM would end in a position like Dark Eldar.


In KNF, Gulliman considers the future of the astartes beyond the great crusade. He sees a path for them and argues his father wouldn't put so much effort into their creation just to throw them away like a tool after the fighting is over. Horus and other soon to be traitors, assumed they are just tools and would be discarded. If the bitter hatred is all that is left inside, those who decided to become tools to be used to avoid being tools, will find out there is nothing to fill their emptyness if victory would be possible.
Thus the 'endgame' is no endgame as the CSM get discarded exactly like they assumed, but not by the Emperor but their unholy masters.

Horus wanted to rule Mankind and to bring it into a new golden age (which would not have occurred, but his attentions, at first at least, were noble). He thought he would be a better, and more justified, ruler than the Emperor. I'm sure plenty of Chaos Marines want to rule. Their motives are likely mostly diluted by now though - rather than trying to improve Mankind's future, they'll likely be content to sit on the throne and simply empower themselves.

Blood for the Blood God, skulls for the Skull Throne.

Simples

The chaos gods genreally weren't too concerned with the material universe before the Emperor started medling with their immaterium. If the CSM defeat the IOM then Abbadon will likely want to rule the galaxy and by overthrowing the emperor the choas gods will be left happy enough to let hikm get on with it. The problem is that I doubt the CSM would unite behind Abaddon as ruler.

From what I remember from the HH books, chaos basically wants the universe to be ruled by the strong dominating the weak, doing with them as they please.

\i'm not even sure the chaos gods exist outside of the milky way. Considering Slanesh was born out of activity by the eldar which occurred in the milky way. Perhaps in other parts of the universe the gods are completely different and are a reflection of whatever life exists there.

SilverMK2 wrote:... chaos basically wants the universe to be ruled by the strong dominating the weak, doing with them as they please.

I'll assume you're talking specifically about CSM and not Chaos generally. As for the strong dominating the weak, that is pretty much how the galaxy works already (assuming one agrees that the IoM rules the galaxy) with the IoM being the strongest relative to all the other races (who are interested in ruling the galaxy) combined. If the IoM was not the strongest, why would it rule the galaxy? Presumably, if the CSM want the strongest to rule then they should be happy that the IoM is in charge. This means everything the CSM do is to make sure the IoM is still the strongest ... which seems incorrect. The CSM actually seem interested in destroying the IoM.

But to what purpose? To replace it? To destroy it? If either, why? Do the xenos races matter to the CSM as anything more than pawns/obstacles in their war against the IoM?

I'm not seeing obvious answers here. When I start thinking about this, CSM really seem like scattered bands of thugs with petty goals rather than a grand faction. In other words, they may be a threat to a specific world or even a sector but they're kind of pathetic at the segementum level, much less the galactic level.

As far as I can tell, losing the HH basically made the CSM irrelevant at the larger scales. Maybe the same can even be said of loyalist Space Marines.

Once they destroy the Imperium, then everything goes to Hell. Abaddon would probably end up like one of the Daemon Primarchs, retiring on some Chaos corrupted hell hole. There would be horrible infighting and everyone would compete for resources and followers.

Here are what I think might be some other factions' endgames:

IoM: subjugate everything to humanity forever
Tyranids: absorb all other life into tyranid biomass
Tau Empire: incorporate all sentient beings into the Greater Good
Eldar: I'm not totally sure -- maybe to a rebuild new, sustainable empire?
Necrons: formerly, to end all life; not sure what it is now
Dark Eldar: forever escape the clutches of Slaanesh
Chaos Gods: I wouldn't presume to know

Orks don't fit this mold well. They don't conquer for the sake of conquering. Ork victory pretty much means doing whatever they want (usually fighting), which is the constant state of Ork life from the individual on up to the species level.

Word Bearers have the goal of establishing the worship of Chaos as the only religion on every planet.

1k Sons are primarily interested in gaining knowledge and therefore power. Some of them could, theoretically, be interested in using that power towards ends that would support the IOM. That would all end in tears of course.

Death Guard just want everything to rot, Emperor's Children are all about the sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and World Eaters dig the skulls.

They don't have one. They were manipulated into betrayal so that Chaos could win. Chaos won. Traitor Marines didn't have an endgame, they were just pawns.

Now, they're held back by leaders which are unmotivated, insane, or incompetent. Those leaders are also ridiculously physically powerful and CSMs are a "might makes right" culture, keeping them firmly stagnant in their own mess.

So they're really in it just for For the Evuls.

For alot of chaos space marines winning means becoming a demon prince and thus gaining immortality and power beyond their wildest dreams. For all that they talk about attacking terra and so on, it's never going to happen. They're too disorganized.

CSM arn't looking for anything logical like power. They just want to watch the galaxy burn.

The goals are disparate. Chaos isn't unified in vision like the Imperium, and the goals vary with the individual. Chaos is, at it's core, about individuality, and satisfying individual desires. For some Legions (Black Legion, Night Lords) the goal could simply be revenge for the events of the Heresy by killing the Emperor. For others, it could be causing carnage (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard). For others, domination for its own sake could be the goal (Iron Warriors), and for still others it could be the glorification of the gods (Word Bearers). Even within each of these, the leader will be shaped by his past and his alignment to one or all of the gods.

In short, there is no clear endgame, and that's why Chaos is what it is. It's a collection of individuals with differing and often conflicting goals. That's one of the reasons they're my favorite faction.

It seems they can hardly be called a faction. There is just mostly similar equipment between the many factions.

Manchu wrote:It seems they can hardly be called a faction. There is just mostly similar equipment between the many factions.

They have a shared history, and were the same race before many mutated/changed. Orks and Eldar are not the same faction, as nothing ties them together. Chaos is a faction, just dysfunctional and volatile. Plus, we know they're a faction because they have their own tab on GW's website.

Generally speaking, all Orks and all Craftworld Eldar have the same culture and goals. This cannot be said for CSM, it would seem.

My Ork and Eldar example was the two races in relation to each other. Eldar are a faction, Orks are a faction. Eldar and Orks are not the same faction because of their huge cultural differences and inability to work together.
Chaos may not be coherent and unified like the Imperium, but they share the base characteristic of being space marines corrupted by the gods, pursuing their own agendas, and occasionally rallying to get things done on a large scale.

Er, no one would ever argue that Orks and Eldar are the same faction ... Also, it's hardly meaningful that all CSm are perusing their own agendas. You're saying that they're alike in the fact that they're all different? Hmm ... Aside from the tabletop, CSM seem more likely to ally with cultists or daemons than other CSM chapters/warbands.

Ok guys since this seems to be eluding you all I will let you in on a little secret as to the nature of 'chaos'.

As we all know warp deities are the physical and sometimes sentient manifestation of the materium's events/emotions/beliefs. These beings/gods/books wax and wane with the ebb and flow of the milky way (constantly changing, even dying). Though obviously able to influence events to various degrees, denizens of the warp are in no way free. The end game for chaotic powers is to completely erode the fabric of real-space. Think of the raw power of the entire galaxy rent apart and devoured by the warp so wholely that warp entities become their own masters funneling the death scream and souls of the materium to shape realty in their own twisted visages.

tl;dr-
milky way galaxy=egg
exterior of egg= real space
yolk and white= immaterium and warp beings
Maelstrom and Eye of Terror= holes in shell

-----shell forms the shape of yolk & white, and contains it; yolk can splash out and dirty the shell; chaos wants to scramble the b-tch.... (or hatch)

First, some basic chaosology: the Materium does not contain the Immaterium, at least not in the sense of shaping or controlling it. Events/emotions in realspace determine how the warp interacts with realspace. If all sentient beings in realspace stopped experiencing emotion, the warp would not cease to churn -- it would simply interdict the penetration into realspace of the warp (maybe). For example, the Eldar did not cause Slaanesh to come into being (Slaanesh has always been) but rather caused the existence of Slaanesh to burst into the Materium, creating the wound in realspace called the Eye of Terror. The death of the Eldar empire and the calm of Craftworld Eldar on their paths did not reverse the influence of Slaanesh on realspace or even shrink the Eye of Terror.

Second, and more importantly, this is a thread about creatures of the Materium, Chaos Space Marines, rather than warp entities such as Chaos gods or daemons. CSM do not have the same motivations as those beings. In fact, CSM have always been devoted to using the power of the warp for their own ends even as the denizens of the Immaterium used them -- e.g., Magnus.

I'd imagine that without a IOM to rage on they'd just fragment, kill each other off and be very discworldesque, wizards with towers building them taller and taller until there's only one wizard left, but by that time they'd also ethnically cleanse the rest of the milky way galaxy (eldar, dark eldar, orks, yadda yadda) so that the only thing they'd have left to fear would be necrons and nids, after which point, they'd be that fragmented that they'd fall to the nids, so then the nids cleanse the crap outta whats left, then head on to another galaxy, the necrons would go back to sleep in their tomb worlds and we'd have.......I don't know...ran outta steam there.

A lot of the answers give me the impression that the CSM are only relevant as long as the IoM is still in power.

Manchu wrote:A lot of the answers give me the impression that the CSM are only relevant as long as the IoM is still in power.

And in fact it is. They are so few in galactic terms that they are not the biggest threat to the Imperium. They are shadows of a distant and glorious past that happen to remind you they still exist from time to time. This is at least in current fluff in which they are depicted as a bunch of warbands and not as full, organizes legions.

The CSM are, to my mind, like the Joker. Without the Batman, what can the Joker say he is, when for so long he has been this man's arch-nemesis? The Chaos Space Marines have spent ten thousand years in a hunt for vengeance, too long to do anything other than turn on each other. Sure, if Abaddon plays it right, he could set himself up as the new Emperor like Horus planned to, but it wouldn't last. The power of the gods would be enough to see the new Imperium collapse within years at the most, even without the outside threats.

CSM were originally about being loyal to themselves and doing what they want - horus was able to persuade them that doing what he wanted them to do ie removing the emperor was the best outcome for them

Then he got slapped hard by his daddy and is down for the count

Non of the other traitor primarchs were of the same calibre or could persuade his brothers towards the same final goal - so as brothers do and as individuals do infighting starts and it all goes to poo

The CSM themselves are in reality just getting what they can, while they can and trying to do whatever makes them personally happy. The chaos powers would like to see them unified to get rid of the emperor and beyond that dont really care what happens to them - The gods would probably be happy to see the CSM dominate the galaxy and turn all humans to chaos and chaos loves eating human souls/essences

What the marines wants .... well that varies as previously mentioned

With the arrival of the nids wanted to eat everything and the necrons wanting to kill everything in the galaxty and being disconnected from the warp - I would say that chaos is screwed in terms of their endgame. Considering that the emperor is what is attracting the tyranids then its probably better for us if he had died - then no nids. But CSM feeding humans to the gods doesnt sound good to me either. But then the necrons would of woken up anyway, wiped humanity out and CSM with it and the gods would of been pwnd too - that was alpharius and omegus original plan wasnt it ?

So they might as well enjoy what they got left while they can ie do wahtever they heck makes them happy weather tahts going after the emperor, taking drugs, taking skulls, spreading pestilence etc etc

One way or another humans are all gonna die and maybe some CSM are gonna run away to the immaterium and enjoy their daemon worlds