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There is really no endgame for them, they fight among themselves a lot more then other forces.

Most of them are really not that much interested in taking down the Imeprium and all as much as they interested in fighting or simple pleasing their gods.

I don't think they thought that far ahead..

Ive now read 16 HH books, the more I get through, the more I struggle to understand their motivations..

And the less appeal chaos hold for me, the loyalists are flawed, but noble and stoic and selfless at times, the chaos lot have just been deceived and fell for it hook line and sinker. The Chaos gods being the most base emotions of humanity given life, they even take pleasure in the suffering and misery of their followers.. what possible reason is there to want to follow it?!

mattyrm wrote: I don't think they thought that far ahead..

Ive now read 16 HH books, the more I get through, the more I struggle to understand their motivations..

And the less appeal chaos hold for me, the loyalists are flawed, but noble and stoic and selfless at times, the chaos lot have just been deceived and fell for it hook line and sinker. The Chaos gods being the most base emotions of humanity given life, they even take pleasure in the suffering and misery of their followers.. what possible reason is there to want to follow it?!

Yes. As their name implies, they are all about chaos. It's essentially rebellion for rebellion's sake. Some of the higher-ups dream of conquering da universe but it's never going to happen. Even if they all got together on the same program, which they never would, there aren't enough of them to get the job done. Like in the late Roman Empire, they're just one of many "barbarian hordes" that the Imperium has to deal with. The Imperium is stronger than any one enemy it faces, but the combined effect is too much for them.

Of course Chaos are a "unified" faction.

The original animosity rules were there to show that, as a faction, Chaos was less disciplined than the imperial factions. But the point of it was still to play them as one faction, explicitly combining units from different gods and sub-factions to showcase and use the "animosity" rules and underline their "difference" to loyalist Marines. Otherwise, what's the point.

This whole obsession of "mono-god" armies, born in no small part from WAAC-players wanting to give themselves an edge by avoiding the old animosity rules have largely perverted the view on Chaos and CSM.

What makes Chaos and Chaos Marines distinct from Loyalists is the very fact that they are mixed (and potentially harbour animostiy towards each other, which may break out mid-battle).

If Chaos Marines are just another uniform Marines Force, painted red-and-gold instead of blue-and-gold, shouting "For the Blood God" instead of "For the Emperor", one might as well just send them the way of the Squats as they no longer add anything distinctive to the game.

Zweischneid wrote:Of course Chaos are a "unified" faction.

No. Unity impleis order. They are not order marines. They are chaos marines. Which implies disunity.

Zweischneid wrote:The original animosity rules were there to show that, as a faction, Chaos was less disciplined than the imperial factions. But the point of it was still to play them as one faction, explicitly combining units from different gods and factions to showcase and use the "animosity" rules. Otherwise, what's the point.

No the original animosity rules reflected that they hate each other's guts too much to even look at each other without blowing a gasket. The only legion that can harmonize these mutual antagonisms long term is the black legion, because they don't really worship chaos at all. They worship themselves, and instead of allowing themselves to be used by chaos, they use it.

Zweischneid wrote:This whole obsession of "mono-god" armies, born in no small part from WAAC-players wanting to give themselves an edge by avoiding the old animosity rules have largely perverted the few of Chaos.

Extra heresy. WAAC players mix and match their cultists because they just want what works. Which is why you see so many CSM armies with two slaanesh demon princes leading a bunch of berserkers and plague marines around.

Zweischneid wrote:What makes Chaos and Chaos Marines distinct from Loyalists is the very fact that they are mixed (and potentially harbour animostiy towards each other, which may break out mid-battle).

No what makes them distinct form loyalists is that they are mighty, whereas loyalists are pitiful.

Zweischneid wrote:If Chaos Marines are just another uniform Marines Force, painted red-and-gold instead of blue-and-gold, shouting "For the Blood God" instead of "For the Emperor", one might as well just send them the way of the Squats as they no longer add anything distinctive to the game.

Fortunately that will never happen.

The closest chaos get to an 'end game' is daemonic immortality and seeing the Imperium burn. after the imperium falls, the galaxy will become, put simply, Chaos. Disorder and slaughter will be the rule. and petty warlords will persue their own goals.

What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

I personally dont think he was doing anything, these guys just found more humans to manipulate and makethemelves stonger by feeding on their emotions and increase the number of humans worshipping them

In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ? Why let chaos ruin your empire and almost kill you if you saw it coming 200 years before hand ?

Is he slow or something ?

sumi808 wrote:What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

I personally dont think he was doing anything, these guys just found more humans to manipulate and makethemelves stonger by feeding on their emotions and increase the number of humans worshipping them

In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ? Why let chaos ruin your empire and almost kill you if you saw it coming 200 years before hand ?

Is he slow or something ?

The Emperor is trying to build humanity up, while the chaos gods represent mankind's destructive and negative urges. So there's the whole light v darkness, good v. evil thing. I like how in 40k there's no attempt to rationalize evil. Like in magic, where black isn't "evil" (yeah right) it's just "selfish" or "amoral." In 40k, evil is real, and it has to be confronted. It could show up in your living room and kill everyone. Hence the inquisition and all that. Anyway, the only specific activity I'm aware of that was a direct attack on the chaos gods was the spread of the doctrine of imperial truth. If people believed in rationality and science and dismissed tales of magic as superstition, then no one would believe in the gods anymore or feed them with psychic energy. Since the chaos gods thrive on belief, they would lose some of their power if the emperor succeeded in convincing everyone. That strategy, needless to say, was not entirely successful.

Remember too the emperor isn't perfect or all-powerful. He's very powerful and very wise but he makes mistakes. He didn't know that horus was going to betray him. He trusted him to take care of business while he repaired the eldar webway, so that people wouldn't have to travel through the warp anymore. He screwed up, simple as that. There's no sure thing in the 40k universe. Only an eternity of war.

GreatGunz wrote:[
The Emperor is trying to build humanity up, while the chaos gods represent mankind's destructive and negative urges. So there's the whole light v darkness, good v. evil thing. I like how in 40k there's no attempt to rationalize evil. Like in magic, where black isn't "evil" (yeah right)

You got somethin against blacks? D<

sumi808 wrote:What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

He was going to kill them by moving humanity to such a state that they'd no longer be receiving power.

sumi808 wrote:
In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

You're just incorrect here. He had no idea it was going to happen.

sumi808 wrote:
Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ?

Once again, he couldn't do anything to stop it. The Emperor couldn't see the future in any way either.

BlaxicanX wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:[
The Emperor is trying to build humanity up, while the chaos gods represent mankind's destructive and negative urges. So there's the whole light v darkness, good v. evil thing. I like how in 40k there's no attempt to rationalize evil. Like in magic, where black isn't "evil" (yeah right)

You got somethin against blacks? D<

no, but arguably wizards of the coast does

mattyrm wrote: I don't think they thought that far ahead..

Ive now read 16 HH books, the more I get through, the more I struggle to understand their motivations..

And the less appeal chaos hold for me, the loyalists are flawed, but noble and stoic and selfless at times, the chaos lot have just been deceived and fell for it hook line and sinker. The Chaos gods being the most base emotions of humanity given life, they even take pleasure in the suffering and misery of their followers.. what possible reason is there to want to follow it?!

Pretty much!

It may be the infamous "baby stapled to forehead" problem, but I have to agree - NO ONE would willingly join up for the craptastic sandwich of gak that Chaos Followers routinely receive as their 'reward'.

DarknessEternal wrote:
You're just incorrect here. He had no idea it was going to happen.

Here's where you're incorrect!

Later HH books have shown that the Emperor did in fact see what was coming - maybe!

Chaos wants to be worshipped or at least praised.

Mortals are simply tools of the gods.

The Traitor legions all have their own goals or lack of. It isn't really about the big picture, it's about all the small conflicts and personal quests for power.

Manchu wrote:If the only goal of CSM is destruction of the IoM then destroying the IoM also means destroying the CSM as they will no longer have any purpose. A bit lame even by Tzeentchian paradoxical standards.

Going back to M35, Horus wanted to overthrow the Emperor so that _________.

Fill in the blank. Is that what CSM (or some or many or most CSM) still want?

The destruction of the IoM is their most pressing goal. Their main goal is to go around doing....Chaosy stuff.

Manchu wrote:Here are what I think might be some other factions' endgames:

IoM: subjugate everything to humanity forever
Tyranids: absorb all other life into tyranid biomass
Tau Empire: incorporate all sentient beings into the Greater Good
Eldar: I'm not totally sure -- maybe to a rebuild new, sustainable empire?
Necrons: formerly, to end all life; not sure what it is now
Dark Eldar: forever escape the clutches of Slaanesh
Chaos Gods: I wouldn't presume to know

Orks don't fit this mold well. They don't conquer for the sake of conquering. Ork victory pretty much means doing whatever they want (usually fighting), which is the constant state of Ork life from the individual on up to the species level.

Technically Orks have already won as this is their ideal life style at the moment. It is true orks cannot lose. Dying in battle is a good thing. Running away isn't loosing since you get to come back with more orks. And you are essentially just assaulting in the opposite direction anyway. Orks are already at their endgame! It's actually quite zen like in its simplicity

sumi808 wrote:What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

There are several possible answers:
1: According to a daemon (so it is definitely true) the Emperor made a deal with the gods to make a primarch, then tried to break that deal once he had what he wanted.
2: The Imperial Truth was an attempt to starve the gods.
3: They may have feared him if the Star Child theory is correct. Killing him seemed like a good way to stop him becoming a god.
4: The Imperium as it was was too structured. Even without the Imperial truth there wasn't enough selfishness for the gods.
5: Giving the humans access to the Webway would mean that the gods had one less way to mess with humanity.

I personally dont think he was doing anything, these guys just found more humans to manipulate and make themselves stronger by feeding on their emotions and increase the number of humans worshipping them.

Which is what the Emperor was trying to prevent.

In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ? Why let chaos ruin your empire and almost kill you if you saw it coming 200 years before hand ?

Is he slow or something ?

The Emperor couldn't predict the future, or if he could, not very well. He didn't know that stuff would happen.

CSM has several endgames. It depends a lot on whom you are talking to. Iron Warriors and Warsmith Honsou in particular seem to have a pseudo-noble method to their madness: they believe that only a new order harnessing the powers of Chaos can stand against Necrons, Orks, Nids and everything else.

Word Bearers are, in a way, the architects of the current IoM. Their endgame would likely be similar, just with a different emphasis: whole worlds dedicated to the chaos Pantheon, with themselves as the chief heralds and inquisitors.

Night Lords are pretty much about vengeance against the IOM. Without their main enemy, they`d likely become warlords `harvesting` fear from their domains.

Taken as a whole, the CSM victory would be a balkanized galaxy. Some areas might even be better off, ruled my independent-minded warlords who despise the Imperium`s bureucratic totalitarianism. Some would be so hellish as to mirror daemon worlds. Others would be launching crusades against xenos and each other.

Win? Chaos isn't trying to win, chaos just is. Sure, right now chaos is focusing on the IoM, but that's just for the moment.

I think the Emperor could not make the Primarchs on his own. he need more that his amazing psyker abilities. In my estimation, the primarchs were created by both science and magic -- i.e., chaos sorcery. Either the Emperor approached the four through their minions or caught their attention by becoming a very powerful and very resilient sorcerer in his own right. So the creation of the Primarchs was something of a bet. In making them, the Emperor knew that the Ruinous Powers would interfere one way or another. He took the chance and the scattering of the Primarchs was his first loss. The eradication of two legions and their Primarchs was he second loss. The Horus Heresy was his third loss. The real question is what did he stand to gain? The Great Crusade itself seems to be a step in some direction -- but what direction, specifically? Sumi808 above asks the right question: how did the Emperor manage to get the Chaos gods so upset that they actually put aside their eternal animosities to foil him? And Eternal Darkness, also above, answers that the Emperor meant to kill them -- and I would add, at least break their hold over humanity -- somehow via the architecture of the Imperium.

In this case, the answer to my original question could be "the CSM 'win' by finally thwarting the Emperor," which (like every other answer presented so far) actually seems to marginalize them as a faction. After all, this goal is only theirs by virtue of having been handed down to them by their masters, the Four. And as, mattyrm, how do they benefit? The slim chance of daemonic ascension? Well, the example of the traitor Primarchs seems to indicate that even this is just a form of slavery. That's fine for a bloodthirster or the lords of change, who have no choice in the matter. But it doesn't make a lot of sense for the endlessly rebellious CSM, at least outside of the Word Bearer ranks. So, what then? Vengeance? Well, that just begs the question.

if their goal is to finish off the emperor then wouldnt that just turn him into the star child, thus killing the chaos gods?

.....so by that logic abaddon has resisted being a pawn to the chaos gods so he can kill off the emperor who will kill the chaos gods and every one can be happy again : D

or this:

1: do chaosy things
2: kill the emperor for good
3: .......
4: profit

The star child stuff hasn't been canon for a while now.

.......oh :/

well then my second theory applies

Alpharius wrote:
Here's where you're incorrect!

Later HH books have shown that the Emperor did in fact see what was coming - maybe!

Source? Also, facts can't be maybes.

Manchu wrote:I think the Emperor could not make the Primarchs on his own. he need more that his amazing psyker abilities. In my estimation, the primarchs were created by both science and magic -- i.e., chaos sorcery. Either the Emperor approached the four through their minions or caught their attention by becoming a very powerful and very resilient sorcerer in his own right. So the creation of the Primarchs was something of a bet. In making them, the Emperor knew that the Ruinous Powers would interfere one way or another. He took the chance and the scattering of the Primarchs was his first loss. The eradication of two legions and their Primarchs was he second loss. The Horus Heresy was his third loss. The real question is what did he stand to gain? The Great Crusade itself seems to be a step in some direction -- but what direction, specifically? Sumi808 above asks the right question: how did the Emperor manage to get the Chaos gods so upset that they actually put aside their eternal animosities to foil him? And Eternal Darkness, also above, answers that the Emperor meant to kill them -- and I would add, at least break their hold over humanity -- somehow via the architecture of the Imperium.

Well, the Chaos 'dex states that the research from the primarch project was used to improve the army he used to conquer Terra from techno-barbarians to Space Marines. The ultimate aim was to unite humanity as the dominant race in the galaxy. The mystery in my opinion is whether human dominance or the destruction of the gods was his ultimate aim. Did he plan to ascend humanity simply to deny the gods their major food source, or were the gods just a roadblock on the way to that goal?

That strikes me as a tautological unity rather than a binary. On the one hand, the neutralization of the Ruinous Powers is necessary for human dominance. On the other hand, the neutralization of the Ruinous Powers would signify human dominance. (If you have the means to beat the Four, some measly orks or tyranids will hardly be problematic.) Therefore, as I see it, it's clear that monodominance is authentically orthodox. This is the fundamental sacred principle of the Imperium: that mankind should rule supreme over the galaxy. I suppose true blasphemy is not merely rejecting that principle outright but rather twisting and perverting it. If the Emperor saw monodominance as a racial goal, detached from his own personality, did Horus see it as a personal one? But that reduces Horus significantly and, by extension, all CSM along with him: "CSM are severely egomaniacal." Okay, fine -- but what else? I mean, Goge Vandire was a severe egomaniac but he doesn't seem to have been corrupted by Chaos.

Durza wrote:

Manchu wrote:I think the Emperor could not make the Primarchs on his own. he need more that his amazing psyker abilities. In my estimation, the primarchs were created by both science and magic -- i.e., chaos sorcery. Either the Emperor approached the four through their minions or caught their attention by becoming a very powerful and very resilient sorcerer in his own right. So the creation of the Primarchs was something of a bet. In making them, the Emperor knew that the Ruinous Powers would interfere one way or another. He took the chance and the scattering of the Primarchs was his first loss. The eradication of two legions and their Primarchs was he second loss. The Horus Heresy was his third loss. The real question is what did he stand to gain? The Great Crusade itself seems to be a step in some direction -- but what direction, specifically? Sumi808 above asks the right question: how did the Emperor manage to get the Chaos gods so upset that they actually put aside their eternal animosities to foil him? And Eternal Darkness, also above, answers that the Emperor meant to kill them -- and I would add, at least break their hold over humanity -- somehow via the architecture of the Imperium.

Well, the Chaos 'dex states that the research from the primarch project was used to improve the army he used to conquer Terra from techno-barbarians to Space Marines. The ultimate aim was to unite humanity as the dominant race in the galaxy. The mystery in my opinion is whether human dominance or the destruction of the gods was his ultimate aim. Did he plan to ascend humanity simply to deny the gods their major food source, or were the gods just a roadblock on the way to that goal?

The ultimate goal was for mankind to conquer da universe. While humanity faces many enemies from without, ultimately it is the enemy within that is the most dangerous. So the chaos gods were the primary obstacle. The Emperor is only interested in ensuring the survival and ascendancy of mankind. Since every alien species is potentially an evolutionary competitor, if he had his way they would all be exterminated. Tough universe.

Yeah, that's puritan monodominance -- a.k.a., imperial orthodoxy as I mentioned. My further point is that human extinction is not the goal of CSM so it's not like they're just diametrically opposed to the Emperor. The CSM version of monodominance is not that humanity rules all but that I (Horus, et al.) rule supreme. I just think that's kind of lame goal. The Emperor is an interesting figure not because he's the super powerful ruler of mankind but because of what he uses his power and rulership to achieve. What goal would Horus have, by contrast? He just wants to be in charge.

As this thread progresses, I'm more convinced than ever that the current CSM fluff is pretty stupid and needs a lot more thought put into it. As they are, they're kind of just cardboard villains.

The CSM and other Chaos forces are just a reflection of what happens if the Imperium collapses.

I'm not sure that defining the CSM as having a single goal is really a good thing. Horus wanted to rule because he was convinced that he would do a better job than the Emperor. It wasn't really Horus' goal anyway it was those Word Bearer chaps, Kor Phaeron and the other one that i'm currently failing to remember. Their goal was to have Chaos Worship as the Imperial Faith, Horus was an excellent opportunity to have that plan come to fruition.

So really, it's the Word Bearers that should be the dominant legion.

Horus doesn't really represent the CSM any more. Abaddon even less so, he manages to get a crusade together but it quickly disbands after they have been pushed back enough. Abaddon is full of hate and just wants the Imperium to burn. The dedicated Legions and the Word Bearers have a goal, even if it's just serving their gods.

I'd actually love to see Lorgar come out of his Meditation and lead a 'Devine Crusade' of united chaos forces.

I think you're right that the Word Bearers are the "true" heirs of the heresy rather than Abaddon and the Black Legion and that the actions of Erebus, rather than Horus, seem to have been the pivotal ones. It would be interesting if the Word Bearers emerged as the Ultramarines of the new CSM codex and Black Legion was relegated to a "backseat" position. I'd personally love to see that. Even before this conversation, the Black Legion always struck me as extremely boring.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, that's puritan monodominance -- a.k.a., imperial orthodoxy as I mentioned. My further point is that human extinction is not the goal of CSM so it's not like they're just diametrically opposed to the Emperor. The CSM version of monodominance is not that humanity rules all but that I (Horus, et al.) rule supreme. I just think that's kind of lame goal. The Emperor is an interesting figure not because he's the super powerful ruler of mankind but because of what he uses his power and rulership to achieve. What goal would Horus have, by contrast? He just wants to be in charge.

As this thread progresses, I'm more convinced than ever that the current CSM fluff is pretty stupid and needs a lot more thought put into it. As they are, they're kind of just cardboard villains.

Yes they're just interested in getting control. There's no real program beyond that. In a way I like that motivation because, though it's monomaniacal and ultimately self defeating, it's also very human. In general humans are often flawed and can't help but act on their worst impulses, even when they know, or should know, that it will lead to disaster. The original legionaires had a choice between a lesser set of loyalties (primarch and legion) and a larger set (the emperor and mankind), and they chose badly. Their story is a tragedy, and the survivors from that period are all basically tragic figures, at least to me. I do wish they would play up that angle of their story instead of using them for cartoon villains all the time. Especially because they have all this backstory in the 41st milllenium that alot of their loyalist opponents dont have. The loyalists do whats right becasue that's what they're trained to do. They don't really have to think about it. In fact, since thought leads to heresy, they're encouraged not to think about it. The traitors have travelled a road with alot more winds and curves in it, so I think there's alot of untapped dramatic potential there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:I think you're right that the Word Bearers are the "true" heirs of the heresy rather than Abaddon and the Black Legion and that the actions of Erebus, rather than Horus, seem to have been the pivotal ones. It would be interesting if the Word Bearers emerged as the Ultramarines of the new CSM codex and Black Legion was relegated to a "backseat" position. I'd personally love to see that. Even before this conversation, the Black Legion always struck me as extremely boring.

well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.