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In M31, it makes sense that a legionnaire might have been more loyal to his Primarch than to a distant Emperor. But that calculus is less compelling in M41-42, when all the surviving legionnaires have known for 10,000 years that choosing their Primarchs over the Emperor was a bad decision -- at least concerning who "won." So we've got CSM going around bitterly mumbling about the "Corpse God" and the "False Emperor" but it's like rednecks complaining that polticians are dumb. If they're so dumb, how come you're the one whose poor and dirty?

Well they're totally committed now. It's not like they can ever go back. When they lost their bid for supremacy, they lost everything. Except their hatred
It sustains them, it nourishes them...
Let the Galaxy Burn!!!

GreatGunz wrote:well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

I think there's a difference. The Ultramarines are supposedly dull because they do everything perfectly and have no flaws. (Of course, they do have flaws and don't do everything perfectly -- but what hater lets truth get in the way of an opinion?) Meanwhile, the Black Legion basically never accomplishes anything that they set out to do. (Even when the 13th Black Crusade campaign established that Chaos won, GW only gave Abaddon a token foothold on Cadia.) They have no defining characteristic besides the negative trait of being devoted to nothing in particular. They're just a generalized band of evil losers and it's not oversimplifiying anything (apparently) to sum up all their ambitions as "smash what we don't like."


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GreatGunz wrote:Well they're totally committed now. It's not like they can ever go back. When they lost their bid for supremacy, they lost everything. Except their hatred
It sustains them, it nourishes them...
Let the Galaxy Burn!!!

So they're having a 10,000-year temper tantrum? Sigh.

Word Bearers as poster boys would be a great thing for CSM. Lorgar represents a true uniting force for Chaos.

He found out quickly that the Emperor had no place for him at his side, he got over it and found something that could give him true purpose.

I think you've made a great point about the Primarchs, I can imagine many Chaos legionnaires being very disheartened by their loss and current situation.

Lorgar and the Word Bearers offer them a unified purpose. It's like being part of the Imperium again, I'd think most would enjoy being relevant in the galaxy once more.

Lorgar for Chaos Emperor!

Nah, Lorgar was as much a puppet as Horus. Erebus seems to be the true heresiarch. Plus -- not only did the traitor Primarchs soundly lose the Heresy, they've also (minus Angron) spent the last 10,000 years doing nothing with regard to the Imperium. Erebus not only rules Sicarius while Lorgar mopes but also emerged to lead the Word Bearers during the 13th Black Crusade.

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

I think there's a difference. The Ultramarines are supposedly dull because they do everything perfectly and have no flaws. (Of course, they do have flaws and don't do everything perfectly -- but what hater lets truth get in the way of an opinion?) Meanwhile, the Black Legion basically never accomplishes anything that they set out to do. (Even when the 13th Black Crusade campaign established that Chaos won, GW only gave Abaddon a token foothold on Cadia.) They have no defining characteristic besides the negative trait of being devoted to nothing in particular. They're just a generalized band of evil losers and it's not oversimplifiying anything (apparently) to sum up all their ambitions as "smash what we don't like."

First, 40k has plenty of good and interesting writing. The Black Legion as it stands is simply an example of how bad rather than how good the fluff can be. Again, the fable of pride type story that you're talking about works just fine among the Luna Wolves in M31 but makes no sense for the Black Legion in 40k.

Second, your "the grimdark is black/white" excuse for the Black Legion's temper tantrum is way off. I'll refer you to the character called Cypher, for example. Or the Inquisition, for that matter. Or hell take a look at what Aaron Dembski-Bowden has done with the Night Lords (who were admittedly already more interesting than the Black Legion). Even Henry Zou's Blood Gorgons, who are very simply Chaos-worshipping Space Marines with no Heresy baggage, are more interesting and thematically coherent than the Black Legion.

The Black Legion is just a the barest minimum fluff necessary to pad a codex. Most other 40k background info has transcended that stage. The CSM overall need better characterization but the CSM posterchild sub-faction is the worst offender.


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GreatGunz wrote:It's the blood angels' never ending temper tantrum that I don't get. Their primarch is dead, sure. But they won the fight. Mission accomplished. They should be proud of their primarch and what they did, instead of raging out all the time and turning into a bunch of maniacs. They're the ones I get tired of...

Dude, they have a disorder ...

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

I think there's a difference. The Ultramarines are supposedly dull because they do everything perfectly and have no flaws. (Of course, they do have flaws and don't do everything perfectly -- but what hater lets truth get in the way of an opinion?) Meanwhile, the Black Legion basically never accomplishes anything that they set out to do. (Even when the 13th Black Crusade campaign established that Chaos won, GW only gave Abaddon a token foothold on Cadia.) They have no defining characteristic besides the negative trait of being devoted to nothing in particular. They're just a generalized band of evil losers and it's not oversimplifiying anything (apparently) to sum up all their ambitions as "smash what we don't like."

The Black Legion have managed to retrieve Horus' body from Terra, kill the clones of Horus, unite the Chaos Legions behind them, and have the dubious honour of being the guys on the cover of the codex for both Space Marines and Chaos Marines. They are also the only legion on either side to denounce their primarch, and the driving force on the revenge on the Imperium motivation. They never accomplish anything because they're never allowed to, and that's the problem. The evil that's on the verge of escaping ceases to look like such a threat when even when it successfully escapes the company decides it doesn't because then they'd have to think of a way to keep a regiment of guardsmen.

As for a defining characteristic, it's (funnily enough) redemption. The other eight legions followed the Sons of Horus to battle on Terra, and they saw it as the fault of the Sons of Horus that they lost, attacking them repeatedly until Abaddon took control. Only by destroying the Imperium can they rid themselves of the shame of their defeat. As for being evil losers, is that really any different to the Tyranids, Dark Eldar or any other villain that comes along? The Imperium (almost) always wins in the stories, victories for the bad guys are insignificant or glossed over.

GreatGunz wrote:Well they're totally committed now. It's not like they can ever go back. When they lost their bid for supremacy, they lost everything. Except their hatred
It sustains them, it nourishes them...
Let the Galaxy Burn!!!

So they're having a 10,000-year temper tantrum? Sigh.

Hatred isn't a temper tantrum. From their point of view, the Imperium betrayed them, and it, not them, is the villain in the piece. They chose their path with the Heresy, and it's not as if repenting is an option when the Imperial troops would shoot them on sight. Besides, remember that the Heresy is a recent memory to the Legionnaires, and each new recruit brings their own grudge against them. It's not a ten thousand year legacy to them, it's a betrayal and exile within their own lifetime.

Manchu wrote:Nah, Lorgar was as much a puppet as Horus. Erebus seems to be the true heresiarch. Plus -- not only did the traitor Primarchs soundly lose the Heresy, they've also (minus Angron) spent the last 10,000 years doing nothing with regard to the Imperium. Erebus not only rules Sicarius while Lorgar mopes but also emerged to lead the Word Bearers during the 13th Black Crusade.

Good Point. I did enjoy The First Heretic a bit too much, hence the Lorgar love.

Perhaps have Erebus ascend to a more Dominant position within the Council and have the remaining members be the High Lord/Eclesiarchy/Whatever equivalent.



Sounds like a fitting 'Terra' equivalent. It could even be stressed that the other Chaos worlds are 'encouraged' to pay tribute, much in the same ways as tithes, or face the consequences of Holy War.

I'm not sure whether having such a similar Empire to the Imperium would please people, I'd personally love it.
Now what to do with the Black Legion?

Durza wrote:Only by destroying the Imperium can they rid themselves of the shame of their defeat.

So it's about ... vanity?

As for being evil losers, is that really any different to the Tyranids, Dark Eldar or any other villain that comes along?

Yeah, there is a big difference -- namely, character. The Thousand Sons are not just stock evil losers. Neither are the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, the Red Corsairs, the Word Bearers, etc, etc. You can say something particular and interesting about all these sub-factions. You can only make negative statements about the Black Legion -- except what you mentioned about them taking control. Of course, that isn't even true. The Black Legion isn't really in control. Abaddon begs help from the likes of Erebus and Ahriman, who are totally free to refuse him. Talos's explicitly refuses him aid.

Hatred isn't a temper tantrum.

How is it meaningfully different in this case? They lost and they're motivation is being angry and embarrassed about losing.


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Medium of Death wrote:Sounds like a fitting 'Terra' equivalent. It could even be stressed that the other Chaos worlds are 'encouraged' to pay tribute, much in the same ways as tithes, or face the consequences of Holy War.

I'm not sure whether having such a similar Empire to the Imperium would please people, I'd personally love it.

I think that it'd be a nice contrast to Ultramar, personally. But then again much of the Imperium is already a strong contrast to Ultramar. In fact, Sicarius only sounds a little worse than an Imperial hiveworld.

Manchu wrote:

Durza wrote:Only by destroying the Imperium can they rid themselves of the shame of their defeat.

So it's about ... vanity?

No more than any Imperial attempt to reclaim a world before the taint of Chaos truly sets in is about vanity. They were raised to be warriors and take pride in victory, then they were handed a stinging defeat. Even as loyalists, losses and failures weren't taken well. Also, there's the fact that the gods give more power to those they find useful. The ones that are seen as having lost the war on the Imperium would therefore have to work the hardest to regain their power.

As for being evil losers, is that really any different to the Tyranids, Dark Eldar or any other villain that comes along?

Yeah, there is a big difference -- namely, character. The Thousand Sons are not just stock evil losers. Neither are the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, the Red Corsairs, the Word Bearers, etc, etc. You can say something particular and interesting about all these sub-factions. You can only make negative statements about the Black Legion -- except what you mentioned about them taking control. Of course, that isn't even true. The Black Legion isn't really in control. Abaddon begs help from the likes of Erebus and Ahriman, who are totally free to refuse him. Talos's explicitly refuses him aid.

Honsou!

Manchu wrote:First, 40k has plenty of good and interesting writing. The Black Legion as it stands is simply an example of how bad rather than how good the fluff can be. Again, the fable of pride type story that you're talking about works just fine among the Luna Wolves in M31 but makes no sense for the Black Legion in 40k.

As a group I don't think they do very good work. That probably has as much to do w corporate oversight as anything else, but they're still not good books on the whole. Take the Horus heresy for instance. What's the difference between loken, tarvitz, and garro? The color they paint their power armor, and that's about it. None of them got a shred of characterization besides how they embody their legion cliches. Garro gets his leg blown off and doesn't care. See how tough he is? Oh that's cause he's death guard. Duh. For people who just want to read war porn that's fine, but at the end of the day it's still basically hack work. Anyway my point is that the black legion could be so much more in the hands of a good writer, but they're so useful as a punching bag that no one has bothered to make them interesting.

Second, your "the grimdark is black/white" excuse for the Black Legion's temper tantrum is way off. I'll refer you to the character called Cypher, for example. Or the Inquisition, for that matter. Or hell take a look at what Aaron Dembski-Bowden has done with the Night Lords (who were admittedly already more interesting than the Black Legion).

He did what I hope one day one of them will do for the black legion. He humanized them so you would t just see them as cartoon villains. Night lords got (and still get) used like that too. It's just now there's a more interesting alternative. I loved soul hunter and got a copy of blood reaver the day it came out for just that reason. There's a great story to tell about the black legion after the heresy: how theyre obsessed with the memory of Horus and they almost get wiped out before abaddon takes charge. What a moment, when they renounce the name of Horus, paint their armor black, and destroy the tomb they used to worship at! Theyre not about Horus anymore. Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy in his grasp and he let it slip through his fingers. That's what abaddon says, and he used to worship Horus. There's a real change of character there, and it would make a great story.

I just think it comes down to corporate management and the desire of a talented writer to tell that story. So far it hasn't happened, but the material is definitely there


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And cypher got cut from the lore bc he doesn't make any sense. Once you give your soul to chaos, there's no going back. Anyway they hardly ever did anything w him

@Durza:

As to your points:

On the one hand, you say the Black Legion are the losers and so have to work harder to gain the favor of the Four.

On the other hand, you say that the Black legion is the largest and most powerful CSM faction.

We both know that the Black Legion never succeeds -- why is not important in this case -- so why are they so large and powerful? However hard they've been working, none of their efforts have been any less disastrous than the Siege of Terra.

First, they are not powerful. Not only do they lose all the time but Warmaster Abaddon's authority over every CSM not in the Black Legion is purely hypothetical, subject to the pleasure of other CSM warlords.

Second, they are large because ... they're generic. Seriously, if you get kicked out of your own Space Marine club (loyalist or traitor) you can always join the Black Legion. Abaddon will take anyone.

Third, we have already established that puritan monodominance is an interesting goal for the IoM, including Space Marines. (Although SM also tend to have more particular and interesting goals of their own, at the chapter level.)

The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

To add to all this excellent discussion, I think it's important to remember there is a big difference between what CSM want and what the Chaos Gods want.

For the Chaos Gods, the endgame is already here. A sprawling human empire trapped in perpetual war and suffering.

Human emotion is where the Gods draw their power, and the Emperor (knowingly or unknowingly) intended to starve them of this power. The Imperial Truth, the re-ordering of the human empire, the quest for total dominance of the galaxy, etc. The Emperor wanted to turn human civilization into a rational, orderly Sweden, while the Chaos Gods want everything to look like Somalia, forever.

To that end, yes, the Traitor Marines were a pawn, and they still are, as are any other humans who worship the Gods. The CSM may have various reasons, but the Gods have incentive to encourage them to continue. Keeping the galaxy in constant turmoil is their goal.

@GreatGunz: Again, you're point about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus is very good -- as long as you're talking about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. But the Black Legion is something else. It's not just Horus's old legion. It's a completely different animal with very little semblance or connection to Legio XVI. You may be on to something but it needs a lot more fleshing out to be relevant in M41/42. What does an ex Night Lord serving in the Black Legion, for example, care about Horus? I suppose you could argue that the Black Legion really represents a complete abnegation of the entire Heresy -- a rejection of Primarchs and Legions and everything that was once Imperial about them. But that just puts us back to where we started: they just do all this because they hate the Imperium/have no meaning or value in and of themselves.

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

He actually does. Well technically it's a "familiar" that has minor psychic powers but he's got one. Needs more eyepatch though I guess augmetic is ok.



(technically its more like a pet monkey... well pirates need those too!)

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:To that end, yes, the Traitor Marines were a pawn, and they still are, as are any other humans who worship the Gods. The CSM may have various reasons, but the Gods have incentive to encourage them to continue. Keeping the galaxy in constant turmoil is their goal.

This is what keeps recurring to me, as well. Why don't we have Codex: Chaos Daemons with CSM as an elite choice or something? When you look at the galaxy in M41/42, it's difficult to see CSM as significant. But then again, Tau have a codex, too.

sudojoe wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

He actually does. Well technically it's a "familiar" that has minor psychic powers but he's got one. Needs more eyepatch though I guess augmetic is ok.



(technically its more like a pet monkey... well pirates need those too!)

Lol thanks for pointing that out. Forgot about the hamydra or whatever.
This being 40k it's a demonic monkey w psychic powers... pretty grimdark. Double hurr


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Manchu wrote:@GreatGunz: Again, you're point about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus is very good -- as long as you're talking about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. But the Black Legion is something else. It's not just Horus's old legion. It's a completely different animal with very little semblance or connection to Legio XVI. You may be on to something but it needs a lot more fleshing out to be relevant in M41/42. What does an ex Night Lord serving in the Black Legion, for example, care about Horus? I suppose you could argue that the Black Legion really represents a complete abnegation of the entire Heresy -- a rejection of Primarchs and Legions and everything that was once Imperial about them. But that just puts us back to where we started: they just do all this because they hate the Imperium/have no meaning or value in and of themselves.

Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.
You're right they need more work. I would love to see ADB or someone like him do a black legion book. And it does get old seeing them used as a punching bag. What can we say. 14th black crusade will be a winner for sure

I think it's just as simple as destroying the Imperium. They're powered by pure spite. They really are the most petty people in all of 40K.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:To add to all this excellent discussion, I think it's important to remember there is a big difference between what CSM want and what the Chaos Gods want.

For the Chaos Gods, the endgame is already here. A sprawling human empire trapped in perpetual war and suffering.

Human emotion is where the Gods draw their power, and the Emperor (knowingly or unknowingly) intended to starve them of this power. The Imperial Truth, the re-ordering of the human empire, the quest for total dominance of the galaxy, etc. The Emperor wanted to turn human civilization into a rational, orderly Sweden, while the Chaos Gods want everything to look like Somalia, forever.

To that end, yes, the Traitor Marines were a pawn, and they still are, as are any other humans who worship the Gods. The CSM may have various reasons, but the Gods have incentive to encourage them to continue. Keeping the galaxy in constant turmoil is their goal.

Those are good points.

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

Nah, the Badab War is awesome. I admit, the current dex does a poor job of reflecting it but there's substance there. With the Black Legion, I think you'd need some re-writing and new material not just a better writer to handle the old stuff.


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GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Well, that's really all they have left. Their leaders capable of original and decisive actions (like Erebus) are chained rigidly to those who aren't, but overpower them (like Lorgar).

It's the leaders of the traitor marines that are incompetent. All of them. But they are a "might makes right" society, and the mighty are so far beyond those who aren't, that they are unchallengeable.

The powers of Chaos have no interest in changing this reality. In fact, this is entirely what they hoped to gain out of the Heresy, so they keep those mighty idiots in power. Remember, only the traitor marines lost the Horus Heresy. Chaos itself won.

If the Word Bearers become the most powerful Chaos Faction it would give Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle a true enemy. An Apocalyptic Holy War that completely shatters the vision the Emperor had for Humanity.

I still hope the new Chaos book allows for Cultists and Daemons, maybe spice things up a bit from Space Marines with Spikes.

DarknessEternal wrote:Their leaders capable of original and decisive actions (like Erebus) are chained rigidly to those who aren't, but overpower them (like Lorgar).

Slightly different situation but didn't Typhus basically defect from Mortarion?

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

Nah, the Badab War is awesome. I admit, the current dex does a poor job of reflecting it but there's substance there. With the Black Legion, I think you'd need some re-writing and new material not just a better writer to handle the old stuff.


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GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Well, another way to look at it is that they're space barbarians. Which essentially they are. Why did the vikings plunder churches? Because it was fun to kill the monks and there was gold inside. No one was going to stop them, so why not? Chaos space marines are like that alot too. Black Crusades aside, most of the time they're just maurauders who don't have any central leadership or overwhelming objective. Horus was the one with the plan. Abaddon tried to step into that role, but he doesn't have Horus' prestiege or power. After all, no primarch is going to let a lowly 1st captain tell him what to do. I just don't have a problem with bitterness as a motivation. They're warriors. War is all they do and all they know. So it makes sense that they would keep fighting even if they didn't really have a plan. It's not like they can settle down on the farm or something.

It's all about killing the Emperor. The Emperor essentially lied to the Imperium, that gods didn't exist, and they want everyone to see the truth behind him. The man whom they once revered lied to them and denied mankind it's rightful place amongst the stars.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Well, that's really all they have left. Their leaders capable of original and decisive actions (like Erebus) are chained rigidly to those who aren't, but overpower them (like Lorgar).

It's the leaders of the traitor marines that are incompetent. All of them. But they are a "might makes right" society, and the mighty are so far beyond those who aren't, that they are unchallengeable.

The powers of Chaos have no interest in changing this reality. In fact, this is entirely what they hoped to gain out of the Heresy, so they keep those mighty idiots in power. Remember, only the traitor marines lost the Horus Heresy. Chaos itself won.

It's true that it worked out pretty well for the gods, even if they didn't achieve their nominal objective.
I don't see the primarchs as being so central, at least not in the 41st millenium. Angron is the only one whose keeping the dream alive. The others are all dead, or else they've passed beyond the realm of mortals in some other way. I mean from a leadership perspective they're pretty much out of the picture. Mortarion and Magnus spend all their time fighitng the other demonic powers in the Great Game. Lorgar has been meditating for ten thousand years, etc etc.

" However, another given reason is that, a scant two years before the Horus Heresy began, Alpharius Omegon was contacted by a Xenos organisation known as the Cabal, which presented the primarch with visions of the Heresy to come and other predictions of the future as well as knowledge about the nature of Chaos. They were shown that the only outcomes of the Heresy were that, if the Emperor won, humanity's existence would be ensured for ten or twenty thousand years of decay before they and the galaxy were consumed by Chaos and that, if Horus won, humanity would perish inside two generations, taking the Chaos powers into oblivion with them, thus saving the rest of the galaxy. The Alpha Legion was asked to take on their greatest challenge; to defect to the side of Horus and ensure the final destruction of Chaos. Alpharius Omegon appeared to accept to this request."