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Hey Dakka, I was wondering...Whats with all the negative feelings towards skaven players? Idk if it is just the group I hang out with regularly at my Gw but a couple seem to have a negative opinion about them, claiming that they are full of themselves and whine too much about how poorly they're army performs.That they should have known what they are getting into when starting the army. Now, in our group we have a couple of...."those guys" who play skaven, and while I don't care for them too much myself, I dont believe that should represent all skaven players as a whole. weirdly enough there is also a strong correlation between people who play skaven and tyranids (which sadly my group doesn't like either). They claim they are both the same choosing armies that have theyre obvious pitfalls and problems just to complain, Does dakka find this is true as well? honestly I find myself strongly disagreeing with them.

Now back to skaven, Im considering playing them as well because I for one love how inherently evil all the vermin are, and how they mock human society. Plus the steampunk/magic combination is absolutely glorious!!! not to mention all that sexy plague stuff.

I was wondering what dakka thinks of skaven players? and are they all seen as those power gamers guys who no one likes? I would really love to start a force but Im afraid of being seen as one of "them" since...atleast I believe I'm a good sport and not a power gamer in the least. To me it seems that skaven is one of those misunderstood armies that not too many like because everybody thinks they are overpowered, but to my understanding their success is not without great luck and superior generalship which is true for all armies in warhammer fantasy.

So just to sum everything up. what does dakka think of skaven players? are they all bad? or are they just misunderstood?
What do you suggest for someone considering getting into skaven who is afraid of becoming one of "those guys" and constantly being disparaged by his group? ( which has happened when I played nids, I was always getting remarks and stuff which was frustrating)
and do you believe Skaven are even that overpowered? Or just another army with its own strengths and weaknesses?

Thankyou for hanging through with my wall of text, probably the longest post I have made ever in my history of being on dakka.


,Moartiki

I don't like them that much. I remember their old army book as being annoying powerful, what with all those ridiculously powerful long ranged weapons that rarely back fire.
Not sure about the new army book though.

I can see the POVs of both "those guys" and your other friends. Skaven can be the best army in the game if everything goes right. But can also be so self-destructive they can get tabled by an inferior army. So it's understandable that other players would see Skaven players as full of themselves and unappreciative when Skaven players complain about their army.

That being said, I've only had positive experiences w/ Skaven players. They've all been wonderfully nice and not competitive (personality-wise at least) at all. And my local scene has one of the top ranked players in the USA who plays Skaven. I'm sure it's different in each area and group, etc. But I will ask - are any of your friends ex-40k players? B/c sometimes that overly-competitive mindset from 40k carries over when players start playing WHFB, at least from my experiences.


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't like them that much. I remember their old army book as being annoying powerful, what with all those ridiculously powerful long ranged weapons that rarely back fire.
Not sure about the new army book though.

he's asking about the players, not the army

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:. But I will ask - are any of your friends ex-40k players? B/c sometimes that overly-competitive mindset from 40k carries over when players start playing WHFB, at least from my experiences.

You are indeed correct sir, we all play both 40k and fantasy, I've been playing orks myself for a while, loving my hordes.

Moartiki wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:. But I will ask - are any of your friends ex-40k players? B/c sometimes that overly-competitive mindset from 40k carries over when players start playing WHFB, at least from my experiences.

You are indeed correct sir, we all play both 40k and fantasy, I've been playing orks myself for a while, loving my hordes.

yeah, again, from my own experiences, 40k players tend to be a more judgmental, competitive, stingy, insecure, etc etc. No offense to you of course. But it's part of the reason I decided to play WHFB exclusively over 40k - the community was way more hospitable and care-free as a whole. I bet if you were to find a group of exclusively/primarily WHFB players, those negative opinions of Skaven players wouldn't be there as much (not saying it'd be completely absent, though - again, every area and group and person is different).

Despite the very similar mechanics that 40k and WHFB share, 40k is designed to promote simple-minded competition (list-building, precise movement rules, limited risk-taking) while WHFB is designed to stress the importance of generalship and board control (random charges/flees/pursuits, the importance of CC positioning, self-destructive magic and WMs, armor saves and shooting being far more difficult than 40k, etc). Even a GW redshirt has said as much. So as long as people still have that 40k mindset of being super-competitive w/o much thought-provocation, it'll probably carry over to WHFB. And the 40k mindset just doesn't translate very well to WHFB.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:.


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't like them that much. I remember their old army book as being annoying powerful, what with all those ridiculously powerful long ranged weapons that rarely back fire.
Not sure about the new army book though.

he's asking about the players, not the army

Oh yeah, I just noticed that.
Sorry, I'm used to threads that complain about armies, not players

Sounds like a local problem. I've never encountered much "hate" for skaven players. The new models for skaven are fantastic- I've been tempted to pick some up myself!

Meh.

It doesn't matter which army you play really, if you don't act like "That Guy" it should work out.

I don't hate Skaven players. The army can be really annoying if the Skaven Player is moderatly lucky and their army doesn't blow itself up.

Of course I play Ogres so the only thing I don't like are WLCs and Doomwheels(which is why God made Ironblasters)

I have never really had any of hate for skaven players. Anyone who runs such a high model count army is ok in my book as they look spectacular on the table but require some much commitment in terms of cash and painting time.

I dont like Skaven as army or the people who plays them in my local gaming sceene. The army seems to attract WAAC and that special kinda gamers

Any army that is particularly strong is going to attract people who want to win.

I wouldn't judge people who build these totally killer armies too much. For some people, myself included, it is incredibly enjoyable to build the biggest meanest army you can possably build and then use it to win games. And in fact the people who build soft lists and are just playing for kicks kinda ruin the game for some of us. Its no fun just walking all over your opponent. Now we could just make soft lists, but thats no fun either. For people with a competitive mindset, knowingly building a list that contains a flaw in it can just grind your very soul(especially when its easily corrected)

Basically, for me and alot of other people, I think the most fun comes out of this game when both opponents try their hardest to beat the other and pull out all the stops.


My Ogre army is practically undefeated at my once a month league. The guys there don't play net lists so some of them may not be, on paper, the most competitive lists. however they are good players and are working as hard as they can. This effort they put into their games makes it very enjoyable, even if they still lose with some regularity. We just rip each others army books(currently the Ogre book is getting called the biggest cheese since Daemons) but we still have fun. Although one guy just about lost it when he found out that the wheel during a charge doesn't take movement which allowed me to complete a charge with a wheel of almost 90 degrees out of his Doombulls charge arc. Part of his hangover from 6th edition.

I think the hate stems from running into dual cannon hpa doomwheel lists and the like. I mean I played so many games against Skaven I really stopped minding the sillyness of their list but to someone who has only played a few games against them I could see some hard hate.

It is really like my hatred of demons, I have only ever played 4 games against them but still.

If someone has such hate after only a couple of encounters I think thats their problem.

Of course it wouldn't kill people to be gentle with the newbs.

@Greytemplar, Funny that you say that, I recently built up a 2500 pt army of ogre kingdoms, and I haven't gotten any flak for it at all lol.

As skaven most of the hatred I received was for my slaves, people never could get out of the endless hordes of tarpit reinforced with steadfast and the strength in numbers thing. Besides that though everything was fine.

I have never really had any of hate for skaven players. Anyone who runs such a high model count army is ok in my book as they look spectacular on the table but require some much commitment in terms of cash and painting time.

I do agree with this, running a fully painted skaven army is not without its commitment, something FOTM players can rarely give.

The hate is mostly directed at the Ironblaster. They think it needs to be more expensive.

I think its perfectly fair because Ogres have nothing else to deal with long ranged threats AND its a Rare choice which means at most you will see 2 of them. 3 would require 3k at least.


Of course it was the 6th edition beastmen player complaining. And I can understand his frustration. Being very good in 6th, taking a hiatus, and then waking up in 8th edition has to hurt.

There is no way you can reasonably argue that an Ironblaster is "perfectly fair". It's a move and fire chariot cannon that can't kill itself, is immune to virtually all common war machine hunters, doesn't auto-die to characteristic-based spells unlike other cannons and it's really good in combat. On top of that, it's even more accurate than other cannons.

All that, for 170pts.

If it could move OR shoot, then it would just be really good. As it stands, they're absurd.

I sense a thread derail on the horizon haha, but yea remember folks this is about skaven stuff.

So basically this is what I have learned, either just find different friends or ignore the couple that don't like them, there will always be critics when it comes to this game...or anything.

I honestly dont think my list that I plan on building is really going to be overpowered, since I want to make a theme list around plague stuff. and I have pretty bad luck, so I don't think I'll beat anyone up too bad lol, plus all I play are the power gamer types which is pretty funny, all my friends play; daemons (nurgle) Daemons (mixed but mostly khorne), Highelves (self admitted using a cheesey build), and brettonnians. I would also like to mention that the one who says they dont like skaven is actually a wood elf and beastman player, and he is extremely manipulative haha.

I never realised people hated skaven players
I dare say its more to do with the actual people than the army they play. Skaven have a lot of character, great fluff, some lovely models and require a farily large painting commitment,ontop of this they can be quite hit or miss on the table. Kudos to any out there who took the time to model and paint that many figures for their horde.
If your fellow players are as manipulative as you suggest, perhaps they just want to sway you away from building a force they havent planned to beat?

Hate really, it's not like skaven have the only cheese in the game – hidras, ironblasters, hipnotoads, chosenstars, Teclis & Co., scar-vet spam, disc mage missiles, empire/dwarven gunlines, Kairos, deamon LD bombs and a whole lot of other funzies well be sure to remember/discover together

The Skaven book is very strong right now. If the people who are in your group that play them are whining about being underpowered, they're idiots. I'd use stronger language, but it's not worth the MODquisition's wrath. The Hellpit is next to broken, Doomwheels are disgusting, and a Grey Seer atop a bell is foul. Oh, did I mention the 45 point engineer with doomrocket (points include item and model) that can nuke a full unit on its own in a single turn? I've used them, and I have a friend who plays them regularly. They're nasty. Your friends/group mates whining that it's a bad book is about the equal of a Space Wolf player whining that his book is underpowered.

timetowaste85 wrote:Your friends/group mates whining that it's a bad book is about the equal of a Space Wolf player whining that his book is underpowered.

You say this like some don't.

Platuan4th wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Your friends/group mates whining that it's a bad book is about the equal of a Space Wolf player whining that his book is underpowered.

You say this like some don't.

Good point. We need to have these people sterilized so they can't breed, ASAP

I don't find skaven players all that annoying. No more so than other players, in fact I quite enjoy playing against skaven. Perhaps skaven players have a bad name because their army is fairly competitive and so when they start winning people always call cheese and treat them like "That Guy." I don't think it helps that ~half the competitive turnout for fantasy is made up of skaven players in my local meta.

Grey Templar wrote:WLCs and Doomwheels

Also, WLC and Doomwheels give me bad dreams. *shudders*

They do indeed. Their existance, along with Purple Sun and Pit of Shades, justifies the existance of the Ironblaster.

I've never noticed hate for Skaven players. Sure they are an army that can make a poor general look good, and perhaps that explains why some people become 'that guy' when playing them.

Best advice is to paly the people you like playing, try to avoid the people you don't, and have fun.

The only Skaven player I know lost constantly, and he seemed rather resigned to the fact that his siege engines were always going to fire into his own ranks, which was sporting of him. However, we were students when we played last, and I suppose he didn't have enough money to purchase some of the 'cheesier' units in the game (his housemate had convinced him that stuff like the hellpit were ruining the game), and his tactics were generally bad, but there was no hate at all.

I suppose Skaven is a very 'hit-or-miss' army, a lot of their units are prone to backfiring but are very good when they work, so maybe the problem is that we envy the OP parts and are annoyed at their unentitled whining when they lose? This is speculation based on IF Skaven receive more hate of course, I'm not sure that they do.

I don't dislike many Skaven players but there are some kids who play Skaven at my FLGS who really annoy me. They refer my Wood Elves as "Elfs thing slaves" and are generally poor sports. They even insult me when things don't go well for me, they blame my presence for the bad dice rolls. I also have bad experiences with many Skaven players.

rockerbikie wrote:They refer my Wood Elves as "Elfs thing slaves"

I see nothing wrong with this statement.


After all, all other races ARE only in the world to act as slaves once we rightfully inherit it.