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Been thinking a lot about what's actually the most effective IG artillery piece.
A quick mention, since I'm comparing like-with-like with pie plates, I've assumed a standard 3 for all shots, as well as a ~50% to hit chance. Obviously this is highly variable on placing BUT it is also the same for all of them so should not make much difference.
Now, some mathhammer:

Manticore
vs Marines
assuming the average of 2 missiles, 3 hit, 2.5 wound, 0.83 dead
vs Land Raider
assuming 75% chance to hit, which is reasonable given its size
1.5 hits, each hit has a 75% chance to damage with Ordanance barrage rules so 0.75 damage results, 0.6 of which is penetrating, which aint too shabby
vs Rhino
1 hit, pretty much guarenteed penetration

Basilisk
vs Marines
1.5 hit, 1.25 wounded and dead
vs Land Raider
0.75 hit, 0.25 damage (and can only glance)
vs Rhino
0.5 hit, 0.4 damage

Griffon Since the Griffons are 75 points a piece I'm assuming two of them
vs Marines
4 hit, 3.3 wounded, 1.1 dead.
vs Land Raider
Can't hurt it
vs Rhino
1.2 hit, 0.8 damages (0.4 penetrating, 0.4 glancing)

These are the biggest 3 condenders imo. The Colossus is obviously very effective at killing marines in area terrain, though 99% of the area terrain I use is ruins and my enemy isn't going to camp his squad on the top floor of a ruin if I have artillery around...
The Manticore seems to come out on top. Slightly less effective than the Basilisk vs Marines (this difference dissapears once the marines are in area terrain) and can hurt AV12, as well as reliably kill light armour, which is very helpful.
What does dakka think? Is there something I'm missing?

Hydras. I hate to say it but they fill the role so well in everything besides non-LOS shooting.

In terms of pure competitive-ness, manticores for arty. A pair of hydras and a pair of manticores make a really strong heavy support backbone to nearly any IG list.

I think combinations of the different artillery is best.


a Squadron of Basilisks for the bulk of the work and a Manticore or 2 for anti-tank/anti-GEQ duties.

The 2nd manticore is only if you don't also want some LRBTs.

Honestly, are any of them worth it?

... mostly yes. What spending the points on an artillery piece gives you is the ability to take ordnance weapons, which are practically as good as +D6, making them better per-shot against vehicles than pretty much anything else in the codex. Plus, they get large blasts, which means that you can actually catch a fair amount of infantry.

As for if they are worth it per-point compared to other multi-shot direct fire weapons, that gets a little dicier as three lascannon HWSs are probably going to be better against most targets than two basilisks.

What they offer more than anything else is mid-range quality. With AV they are more durable than other options that do more damage, and in the low to mid 100's of points they are cheaper than their more heavily armored alternative. Effective enough to be worth taking and still cheap enough to be spammable. Not a required thing, for certain, but it's still a viable option.

As to which, it's the basilisk or the manticore. Everything else is really niche or is generally ineffective.

Squash wrote:Honestly, are any of them worth it?

I'd been wondering this myself actually. Russes are pretty cool until you factor in universal cover and the sheer unliklihood of actually hitting anything.
Artillery offsets this somewhat by being able to fire indirectly, meaning infantry will only get cover in area terrain and vehicles will never get cover...though if you play with ubiquitous ruins, as i do, your opponant will simply park his transports on the bottom floor of ruins...sigh.

The Manticore is best in terms of bang for buck I reckon. And I can't bare to only have one or two given how easy they are to penetrate. 3 Manticores hidden at the back of the board with plenty of other AV12s in front of them is pretty effective, especially if your mech infantry is pushing forward and threatening the enemy-your opponent will more often than not prioritise a Chimera with meltavets in than a far-off Manticore, since the former is a much larger immediate threat. But that's just armour saturation really.
Basilisks IMO are too expensive to get enough of them. At the level they become effective, they also chew too much out of your points allowance.

Joey wrote:The Manticore is best in terms of bang for buck I reckon.

I have used these extensively and they disappoint. Basically assume you will always get 1 missile off and that they only last 4 turns. It is great when they get 2 or 3 missiles (i.e D3 large blast) but it is a chance thing. So for 4 turns of 1 str10 ap4 blast, I found it entirely underwhelming. Also I really dislike never being able to force cover saves or instantly blast MEQ's when out of cover.

Effectively it reduces its ballistic skill even further by giving an additional chance element to its damage threshold. Another way to look at it is the Zoanthropes lance power; needing to pass a LD test; then roll to hit, then penetrate; then roll a damage table. Negative stacking odds.

No mention of the Medusa up there ? also no point cost comparison ? griffons are cheap! Each artillery piece has a different role.

~Lion~

My guard have had a Basilisk as support for many years. I'm quite fond of the old thing. It's not as fancy as some of the other options but has a good track record.

Normally it's bombarding things my Russ's can't see.

Ailaros wrote:

As to which, it's the basilisk or the manticore. Everything else is really niche or is generally ineffective.

+1. The Bassy is neat when you land it on a squad of MEQ's, for everything else the manticore edges just ahead.

I just got a friend a manticore for his birthday, so now he has a manticore and a bassy. I'm wondering if it was a good idea...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Squash wrote:Honestly, are any of them worth it?

...yes, very yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:Hydras. I hate to say it but they fill the role so well in everything besides non-LOS shooting.

Artillery =\= mobile AA

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:No mention of the Medusa up there ? also no point cost comparison ? griffons are cheap! Each artillery piece has a different role.

Yeah, I did actually...

Ailaros wrote:As to which, it's the basilisk or the manticore. Everything else is really niche or is generally ineffective.

The medusa is singular amongst artillery choices in that it's capable of being both niche AND ineffective at the same time.

Razerous wrote:Hydras. I hate to say it but they fill the role so well in everything besides non-LOS shooting.

I like hydras for what they do, but this quote isn't right.

Autocannons, on hydras or otherwise, fill exactly one role well - taking down the lightest of vehicles. Against everything else they lack the strength to be a serious threat to vehicles, lack the number of shots to be a serious threat to hordes, and lack the AP to be a serious threat to MEq, TEq, or MCs.

If you are going up against open-topped AV10, or skimmer AV10 on a reasonably regular basis, then it's totally worth it to take a couple of hydras for a mech list, as that target type can be spammed so hard that it can be kind of a pain in the butt to take out otherwise. To say that it fills every role in the game so well that there isn't a reason to take anything else is far from true, though.

A-man as always is selling the Hydra too short.
It's worth it for the 150 points for a pair.

I disagree on a lot of things with Ailaros, but he is spot on with hydras.

alarmingrick wrote:A-man as always is selling the Hydra too short.
It's worth it for the 150 points for a pair.

Yes, but is it worth the HS slot?

at low points and in Metas heavy with Eldar and other skimmers it would definitly be worth it, but otherwise you will probably get better use out of a 2nd Manticore.

alarmingrick wrote:A-man as always is selling the Hydra too short.
It's worth it for the 150 points for a pair.

Hydra...are not artillery.

Anti aircraft artillery... I know what you are saying but they sort of are.

Heavy Support ! = Artillery.

Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex. The only things that are artillery are the DKOK batteries and the rapier laser destroyer.

I'm just being pedantic now though. Sorry.

Anyway, my vote for the best artillery goes to the manticore. It seems to be the best all round piece. In higher points games a pair of basilisks may be better though. The AP4 really doesn't bother me that much with the manticore. The chances of getting marines in the open are low, so they would usually get cover saves anyway.

Trickstick wrote:Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex.

Master of Ordnance.

Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex.

Master of Ordnance.

Do you every create anything that isn't freakin' awesome?!
I'd not ever run one, but if I did, I hope I could make one half as nice.

alarmingrick wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex.

Master of Ordnance.

Do you every create anything that isn't freakin' awesome?!
I'd not ever run one, but if I did, I hope I could make one half as nice.

that is.....i just peed a lil

^Guard shooting. Without bringing mathhammer into it, I see manticore as the best tool for arty.

Griffons and Accurate Bombardment can put a ton of wounds on any unit not in a vehicle, my vote goes to them.

My meta is extremely MEQ heavy, so I just stick with Medusas and demolishers for termie/LR deterrent (everyone and their grandmother has a termie squad somewhere.) If it was more of an all around scene I'd take the manticores and hydras but as it is I don't see any point in using them.

i'd say basilisks cause i have a friend who has a massive guard army with about 20 basilisks and he knows how to use them effectively aka: I get my butt handed to me when i play him as my word bearers

Collosus siege mortar I believe? Str. 6 ap. 3? If that's the right one? Only termis survive that... Oh did I mention no cover saves?

I find the Colossus is great when squadroned with two Griffons. The maximum surface area with the Accurate Bombardment rules for the Griffon's is far lucrative than a single Manticore. As the latter has a chance to have all its rockets destroyed in one round of shooting, at least the Colossus has two ablative vehicle wounds before losing its own.

Actually I've never tried a mix of artillery... Usually my collasjs will kill what I want, using a Russ as a bodyguard upfront to make sure it don't die... A pie plate wounding on a 2+ and no cover never fails

KplKeegan wrote:I find the Colossus is great when squadroned with two Griffons. The maximum surface area with the Accurate Bombardment rules for the Griffon's is far lucrative than a single Manticore. As the latter has a chance to have all its rockets destroyed in one round of shooting, at least the Colossus has two ablative vehicle wounds before losing its own.

Hmm.

I suppose the only problem with this is that it doesn't fix the main problem with the colossus, it's terrible strength. It's still nearly 300 points that can't do much more than scratch paint on anything heavier than a rhino. That and it still has terrible Ap, but perhaps the sheer quantity of hits ameliorates this somewhat...