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Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:I find the Colossus is great when squadroned with two Griffons. The maximum surface area with the Accurate Bombardment rules for the Griffon's is far lucrative than a single Manticore. As the latter has a chance to have all its rockets destroyed in one round of shooting, at least the Colossus has two ablative vehicle wounds before losing its own.

Hmm.

I suppose the only problem with this is that it doesn't fix the main problem with the colossus, it's terrible strength. It's still nearly 300 points that can't do much more than scratch paint on anything heavier than a rhino. That and it still has terrible Ap, but perhaps the sheer quantity of hits ameliorates this somewhat...

I don't understand this bizzare fascination with trying to blink tanks with anti-infantry artillery. Let the Exterminator or Hydras worry about transports, it's the meat inside the artillery is for. And Colossus' AP is terrible? It kills marines outright. Colossus and Griffons are strength 6, AP 3 and 4 respectively. Have you seen what this thing does to Termagaunt and Ork hordes? It's a glorious sight to behold.

KplKeegan wrote:I don't understand this bizzare fascination with trying to blink tanks with anti-infantry artillery.

The point isn't that purely anti-infantry stuff should also take out tanks. The problem is that in 5th ed, at least, units that are good against infantry, but can't do much to handle tanks just aren't worth taking. It's the same problem that SO MANY units tooled for this task have. Whether it's flamers, or heavy bolters on one end or eradicator cannons and punisher cannons on the other, what's the point of taking specialized anti-infantry tools in an army that, by default, is pretty good against infantry, in a world where it is more than possible to do mech spam, where they will see spotty killing power. Current meta goes to units that can both handle transports AND the guys inside - something that's required in order to be able to spam them enough to be able to handle mech spam.

Yes, the Ap3 part of this is kind of nice, but it's still 300 points of easily killable artillery that has to wait around doing nothing while the rest of your army supplies it with a target. This can create problems in general, but it's especially bad on a squad of flimsy vehicles that really only brings early game killing power before being knocked out.

I'd much rather take a basilisk that can engage anything outside of termies and MCs with a reasonable chance of doing some damage than take a unit that only works particularly well against MEq that have just been knocked out of their transport (why an opponent would even bother putting them in there in the first place if this would be a serious threat...), or against deepstrikers behaving foolishly.

Well man i would have to say for heavy artillary is the Manticore , But i have a more .......Diverse Tactic that many people frown upon .........6 morters granted it has almost NO AT capability but any infantry are going to get torn apart ....and its cheaper then getting heavy artillary which is easily targeted and can't take much cover , ......

I don't really think the collosus is for killing tanks... Maybe pop a rhino here and there but they are just great at blasting a 5 man purifier squad to peices with one shot! No cover saves aloud~

Combining a Colossus and Griffon in a squadron seems quite a nice idea. Multiple Barrage with the Griffons Accurate Bombardment helping the initial blast land on target.

As mentioned the Colossus wont do alot against armour, but as an anti infantry weapon it's a great bit of kit.

Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:I don't understand this bizzare fascination with trying to blink tanks with anti-infantry artillery.

The problem is that in 5th ed, at least, units that are good against infantry, but can't do much to handle tanks just aren't worth taking. It's the same problem that SO MANY units tooled for this task have. Current meta goes to units that can both handle transports AND the guys inside - something that's required in order to be able to spam them enough to be able to handle mech spam.

This is very true, more and more in 5th ed my army looks more like an Eldar; specialized troops good at one thing and one thing only (Vanquishers for heavy tanks and MC's and Exterminators for transports or Flamer Vets and Missile Blobs), except there's more of them... But sometimes you do face a horde...

Yes, the Ap3 part of this is kind of nice, but it's still 300 points of easily killable artillery that has to wait around doing nothing while the rest of your army supplies it with a target. This can create problems in general, but it's especially bad on a squad of flimsy vehicles that really only brings early game killing power before being knocked out.

I'd much rather take a basilisk that can engage anything outside of termies and MCs with a reasonable chance of doing some damage than take a unit that only works particularly well against MEq that have just been knocked out of their transport (why an opponent would even bother putting them in there in the first place if this would be a serious threat...), or against deepstrikers behaving foolishly.

Basilisks have that glaring 36" blind spot when firing inderectly and ends up turning into a Medusa after turn two (unless caddy-cornered), which firing directly can also be hazardous to an artillery's health. At least with the Colossus and Griffons they have a little more turn leeway to fire Ordnance before the 24" zone.

KplKeegan wrote:

This is very true, more and more in 5th ed my army looks more like an Eldar; specialized troops good at one thing and one thing only (Vanquishers for heavy tanks and MC's and Exterminators for transports or Flamer Vets and Missile Blobs), except there's more of them... But sometimes you do face a horde...

Wait...please don't tell me you use vanquishers, missile blobs...and...flamer vets!? My god man, those are probably the least effective, efficient, and competitive choices for any of those slots or roles that need to be filled. Why would you waste BS4 vets with flamers? Why would you waste a heavy support slot with a Vanquisher? Why are you using missiles in a blob squad when autocannons are either cheaper and more effective for light transports, and lascannons are more effective for anti-armour?

Blacksails wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

This is very true, more and more in 5th ed my army looks more like an Eldar; specialized troops good at one thing and one thing only (Vanquishers for heavy tanks and MC's and Exterminators for transports or Flamer Vets and Missile Blobs), except there's more of them... But sometimes you do face a horde...

Wait...please don't tell me you use vanquishers, missile blobs...and...flamer vets!? My god man, those are probably the least effective, efficient, and competitive choices for any of those slots or roles that need to be filled.

I know right? And yet I keep winning...

Why would you waste BS4 vets with flamers?

Because they have had better success at taking enemy held objectives by firing three templates simultaneously, shooting their shotguns, and charging, than shooting three meltas or three plasmas.

Why would you waste a heavy support slot with a Vanquisher?

72" range and 2D6 Armor pen, plus a hull lascannon, and Melta-Sponsons is the only real thing I need to kill heavy armor.

Why are you using missiles in a blob squad when autocannons are either cheaper and more effective for light transports, and lascannons are more effective for anti-armour?

Because I use Exterminators and missiles for transports. I choose missile launchers because of their dual purpose roles. And I do have a few Las Cannons just in case.

I guess whatever works for you...but I can't help but shake the feeling there are far better and efficient choices for those roles.

Blacksails wrote:I guess whatever works for you...but I can't help but shake the feeling there are far better and efficient choices for those roles.

There are, but the alternatives are commonplace among 'competitive' Guard lists and people can easily telegraph what you're carrying, adapting counter measures; Melta/Plasma vets, Vendettas, Autocannon/Lascannon blobs, Vanilla Russes, and suicide Storm Troopers. Showing up with units players aren't expecting is a tactical suprise. Sure there are cases where I still lose, but sometimes my uncoventional list can trump almost any 'competitive' list brought against it.

Medusa's are best in my tank company. A squad of 2 finishes off practically anything they target; infantry or vehicles. 36" range isn't shabby, and as for LOS, a manticore steps up to the plate nicely.

KhorneOnTheCob wrote:Medusa's are best in my tank company. A squad of 2 finishes off practically anything they target; infantry or vehicles. 36" range isn't shabby, and as for LOS, a manticore steps up to the plate nicely.

The Medusa is pretty solid, the down side is you need LOS as it's not a barrage weapon.

... and it's BS3, and it's more likely to have to beat a cover save which it has nothing to beat.

Still has to be in LOS, still has to hit, still has to pen, still has to roll high enough on the damage chart, and still has to beat cover where applicable. Sure, basically every unit has these restrictions, but in the medusa's case they hurt a lot more, being on an expensive, fragile vehicle.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:No mention of the Medusa up there ?

~Lion~

I think the Medusa must be one of the best artillery. Manticore is good and so is the Deathstrike but too unpredictable. The Griffon is the most reliable but the least effective most times.

KplKeegan wrote:I know right? And yet I keep winning...

I'll point out 2 things.
1) I am very capable of going down to the local school and beating up 100 children. I then go "yeah, I just won 100 fights in a row". Once context is given, suddenly I don't look so tough no more
2) according to your sig you have not achieved victory in the majority of games. Statistically, the odds are you are not going to achieve victory.