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Ok I swear this isn't a troll post, i just read this in the lexicanum and I was suprised.



So how would this work ? The imperium decided to try out a new SM chapter with the geneseed of a traitor legion ?
Or did part of the legion not become a bunch of animated suits of armor and formed a new chapter ?

I'm at loss here...

Lexicanum is the Wikipedia of 40k.

Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes it's an opinion piece masquerading as fact.

In this case, it's important to focus upon one particular piece:

While direct in-universe mentions of a connection between the Blood Ravens and the Thousand Sons is scant, a significant amount of allusion is made to the subject in a variety of sources.

Direct in-universe mentions are "scant"(read: nonexistent outside of C.S. Goto's works)
There's also this, which can be applied to basically EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE which makes some kind of "connection":

There are several possible interpretations of these words, but the language used is clearly pertinent to Blood Ravens speculation.

It's an interpretation; and Lexicanum has decided that it is "fact".

For example, they point to this quote as an example of "The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.2b"

Such is the depth of planning and thoroughness that every eventuality is planned for, thanks to their Librarians' uncanny ability to predict. As a result they have in the past warned or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch, Magnus, and his ultimate fate--claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings...

But it is possible that they are right ?

It just seems a bit far fetched imo.

And yes, its like wikipedia, i know not to place any blind trust in it

It's not really feasible by any measure, but right now the Horus Heresy novels and their allusions to the Blood Ravens/Thousand Sons connection are just damage control for the crap that C.S. Goto wrote.

Basically they're just retconning the Thousand Sons from being "All is Dust" to "All is Dust--except for these guys, who may or may not(WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE) be the Blood Ravens!".

Oh not this again Kan. You're the only one I know who goes on about how the Blood Ranve/1KSons connection is either false or only exists in DoW. There is a reference to blood ravens and various related paraphernalia within the Horus Heresy novels. Arhiman is part of that group.

But the part that I don't get Kan is why you're so against the idea, and why you're so intractable on the whole issue.

Because it's fan-wanky bullgak, basically. I just don't belabor the point because people are going to believe what they believe, and there's no talking them out of it. People are entitled to their opinions, after all, no matter how wrong they may be.

It hasn't been, nor will something like this ever be, confirmed officially.

Basically, the speculation comes from a number of things, particularly certain lines from two(?) HH novels(I can't recall which), among other things.

Ronin-Sage wrote:It hasn't been, nor will something like this ever be, confirmed officially.

Well of course not. That'd take the fun out of it (just like explaining who the Legion of the Damned took the fun out of them). I think the fact that it's a mystery is a good thing. I don't like how people just say "No they're not!" with no real explanation.

And speaking of not having an explanation...

Psienesis wrote:Because it's fan-wanky bullgak, basically. I just don't belabor the point because people are going to believe what they believe, and there's no talking them out of it. People are entitled to their opinions, after all, no matter how wrong they may be.

That... wasn't an argument. Don't really know what that was. It's "fan-spank". How, exactly?

So ya...

There are plenty of refrences too it. Now your question is how is it possible?


The theory that makes the most sense to me is that during the invasion of Prospero, Magnus sent off a section (Company size roughly) off so they did not particpate during the fighting against the Space Wolves (That is fact, its in Prospero Burns)

What most likely happened to these guys was that this company was left in an awkward position. Their Legion had been destroyed and a massive Civil War going on yet they are hated by both sides. These men would have gone into hidding for a few hundred/thousand years. Because they were not with Ahriman when he performed his Rubric spell thing, they were not effected by it.

During one of the later foundings, these guys would have attempted to rejoin the Imperium (they are still loyal after all). The Imperium, because of its size and the confusion that always seems to occur during these foundings... for some reason, let them in without noticing that they dont know where these guys came from. (This happens all the time though... for some reason)

So now we have a chapter in the Imperium which has a dark secret they are trying to hide (they are from a traitor legion) and will go to any lengths to hide it. Only a select few in the upper ranks know this dark secret so in the eyes of the Imperium they are simply victims of poor record keeping.

This theory does a pretty decent job and satisfying all the lose ends and hints that are thrown around in DoW, the HH novels, and other sources.


However this is just a theory and not a confirmation.

That would make sense... after all, the same thing happened to Nathaniel Garro...

Kanluwen wrote:
Direct in-universe mentions are "scant"(read: nonexistent outside of C.S. Goto's works)

I was unaware that C.S. Goto wrote Horus Heresy era fluff

The theory that makes the most sense to me is that during the invasion of Prospero, Magnus sent off a section (Company size roughly) off so they did not particpate during the fighting against the Space Wolves (That is fact, its in Prospero Burns)

What most likely happened to these guys was that this company was left in an awkward position. Their Legion had been destroyed and a massive Civil War going on yet they are hated by both sides. These men would have gone into hidding for a few hundred/thousand years. Because they were not with Ahriman when he performed his Rubric spell thing, they were not effected by it.

During one of the later foundings, these guys would have attempted to rejoin the Imperium (they are still loyal after all). The Imperium, because of its size and the confusion that always seems to occur during these foundings... for some reason, let them in without noticing that they dont know where these guys came from. (This happens all the time though... for some reason)

So now we have a chapter in the Imperium which has a dark secret they are trying to hide (they are from a traitor legion) and will go to any lengths to hide it. Only a select few in the upper ranks know this dark secret so in the eyes of the Imperium they are simply victims of poor record keeping.

This theory does a pretty decent job and satisfying all the lose ends and hints that are thrown around in DoW, the HH novels, and other sources.


However this is just a theory and not a confirmation.

Good theory, its pretty much been confirmed in one of the Horus Heresy short stories (captain of splinter Thousand Sons faction vows to determine the cause of the Thousand Sons betrayal etc and says the Chapters Motto "Knowledge is Power")

In any case, its pretty much all conjecture, and barring a major surprise from GW it will likely remain as such for the forseeable future, its part of the allure of 40k, all the mystery that surrounds the setting. Those of you denying the possibility have failed to realize that allusions to the connection are INTENTIONAL and not merely coincidence, and that it is well beyond simple "damage control for crappy C.S. Goto writing". Also, those of you saying its from non-canonical sources have missed the fact that the entirety of the Blood Ravens existence is 'outside of canon' as the only truely 100% undeniable canon fluff sources are out of the design studio, and as of yet I haven't seen them mentioned anywhere outside of Black Library/Dawn of War.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Well of course not. That'd take the fun out of it (just like explaining who the Legion of the Damned took the fun out of them). I think the fact that it's a mystery is a good thing. I don't like how people just say "No they're not!" with no real explanation.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree. I'm actually in the camp that believes that Thousand Sons are the likely progenitors of the Blood Ravens, as whacky as some others see it.

mayfist wrote:But it is possible that they are right ?

It just seems a bit far fetched imo.

And yes, its like wikipedia, i know not to place any blind trust in it

It's possible. It is heavily hinted at in numerous places. Odds are that they will never progress past hinting to flat out stating.

For the record, Kanluwen is above-averagely against the concept of Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons descendants.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Direct in-universe mentions are "scant"(read: nonexistent outside of C.S. Goto's works)

I was unaware that C.S. Goto wrote Horus Heresy era fluff

You must also be unaware that the publication of the Horus Heresy era fluff came after C.S. Goto wrote his stuff, and people started citing it as "definitive proof" because Ahriman called a Blood Raven "Brother".

Why? Because he based his "theory" upon that one line in the Index Astartes article of Puritans comparing the Blood Ravens to Magnus...except rather than making it sneaky and hinting at it, he beats you upside the head and screams in your ear. It's like if the surprise "twist" of The Empire Strikes Back was Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker at a clinic getting a paternity test done.

It's ridiculous.

I don't mind the idea of Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons descendants, mind you. But...the whole thing has just been handled so sloppily that it makes some of Ward's more off the wall stuff look like freakin' Shakespeare by comparison.

Good theory, its pretty much been confirmed in one of the Horus Heresy short stories (captain of splinter Thousand Sons faction vows to determine the cause of the Thousand Sons betrayal etc and says the Chapters Motto "Knowledge is Power")

"Knowledge is Power" is an absurdly common phrase during the Heresy. It's in "The First Heretic" too, and the Word Bearers wear red armor.

Blood Ravens must be descendants of the Word Bearers!
The story you're referring to, by the way, is "Rebirth" which was as hamhanded as C.S. Goto...which was surprising because the author also did "The Battle For the Fang".

In any case, its pretty much all conjecture, and barring a major surprise from GW it will likely remain as such for the forseeable future, its part of the allure of 40k, all the mystery that surrounds the setting. Those of you denying the possibility have failed to realize that allusions to the connection are INTENTIONAL and not merely coincidence, and that it is well beyond simple "damage control for crappy C.S. Goto writing".

No, it's pretty much not conjecture anymore. Graham McNeill has come out and said "YUP THAT'S HOW IT IS".

I say "NOPE, NOT IN MY 40k!".

So you accept that not only does the fluff hint at, and heavily hint at, but definitively states that the BR are TK descendants?

But you don't like how they did it?

I'm trying to understand your position.

I wouldn't try to understand it ph34r. It will only result in madness...

But if you truly want to:

In my position?
C.S. Goto's stuff never happened. There is no "definitive" tie between them; we only have the vague hints from "A Thousand Sons"( "It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!" p.430) and "Rebirth".

Also, in my position people have to actually read the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens before using it as proof. It's the only piece of "official" GW canon on the Blood Ravens' origin, and it makes no actual mention of any kind of similarities except in Puritan officials comparing the Ravens and their idea of "we can predict it's happening, thus we can stop it" to Magnus.

Incidentally, I've always liked the idea of "we can predict it is going to happen, thus we can stop it" in fact causing the incident in question...meaning the Blood Ravens arrive and start the mess they then have to clean up.

I tend to look at the story (we know) of the Blood Ravens as a bit like a movie (the Dawn of War games) and the novelisation of that movie (C.S. Goto's books). Generally speaking what happened happened, but the details may differ depending on the source.

So I'd look to the DoW games before I looked at the DoW books (for narrative, not realistic portrayals of Marine casualty rates - don't start that argument!). Gabriel Angelos exists, and the story that plays out through the DoW games right through to the Chapter Master turning to Chaos and so on, all that happened in the 40K fluff. If you want to cut the more over references to the Raven/1KSons link, ok fine, but this is a mystery where the answer is kinda obvious but will never be (and should never be) confirmed.

The Man with the Kan wrote:...It's the only piece of "official" GW canon on the Blood Ravens' origin

Ah ah ah! Don't do that. Everything is real and nothing is real.

I like this idea. But TBH I like it better if BR aren't simply Garro-style TK loyalists. I like the idea of Terra getting really arrogant millennia later, say around the 21st Founding, and mucking about with traitor geneseed. For example, think of the Minotaurs as using rehabilitated World Eater geneseed.

Problem with that, Manchu, is that we know rather definitively that the traitor gene-seed is still in lockup.

Unless they change that.

It's vaguely implied, and I personally agree (though I love Thousand Sons & the DoW games, so am fairly biased), but like much of 40k, it's up for debate, and rife with speculation, interpretation and assumption.

Kanluwen wrote:Problem with that, Manchu, is that we know rather definitively that the traitor gene-seed is still in lockup.

We know that it has been locked up but we know nothing definitive about what the guys who have it locked up have been doing with it.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Problem with that, Manchu, is that we know rather definitively that the traitor gene-seed is still in lockup.

We know that it has been locked up but we know nothing definitive about what the guys who have it locked up have been doing with it.

It's a vault which can only be opened by the Emperor.

The Emperor hasn't been doing much--so I'd say it's fair to say "They're not doing anything with it".

Depending on who you believe, the Emperor does plenty. Plus this is all old, old fluff. Who knows what happened during that Cursed Founding? GW is not likely to ever tell. For myself, upgraded World Eaters as Minotaurs sounds pretty good. And I prefer Blood Ravens that don't go all the way back to the Heresy, at least not directly. There's 10,000 years to play with. I hate that people always want to derive everything from the Heresy.

We can at least agree on the last bit.

Not everything has to be tied to the goddanged Heresy.

Blood Ravens must be descendants of the Word Bearers!

Actually there is a backing for this also lol

Oh and I have never read anything from C.S. Goto and I dont plan to. I know what he says though.

Ya I dont acknowledge anything he has written in my little 40k universe

It's impossible to use the traitor gene-seed locked in Terra...the only way for the Blood Ravens to be Thousand Sons are for them to be descended from those few loyalists who survived the Heresy; in this case, the Fourth Fellowship, who probably made arrangements with the Inquisition and the Mechanicus regarding the matter. Guilliman might have know as well. And yes, I am all for Blood Ravens = loyalist Thousand Sons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:

mayfist wrote:But it is possible that they are right ?

It just seems a bit far fetched imo.

And yes, its like wikipedia, i know not to place any blind trust in it

It's possible. It is heavily hinted at in numerous places. Odds are that they will never progress past hinting to flat out stating.

For the record, Kanluwen is above-averagely against the concept of Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons descendants.

To the point that whenever a Blood Raven thread pops up you can guarantee that the Inquisitor-Priest Kanluwer will be there.

I'm with the camp that thinks it's far cooler for Chapters with shadowy histories to have come from the Cursed Founding, rather than crazy "well, it just so happens..." stories from the Horus Heresy. One or two of those are interesting, the next ten or so.......

Its official fluff, show me where else in official fluff such a thing occurs? Otherwise you are correct, fan fluff like that sucks...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I tend to look at the story (we know) of the Blood Ravens as a bit like a movie (the Dawn of War games) and the novelisation of that movie (C.S. Goto's books). Generally speaking what happened happened, but the details may differ depending on the source.

So I'd look to the DoW games before I looked at the DoW books (for narrative, not realistic portrayals of Marine casualty rates - don't start that argument!). Gabriel Angelos exists, and the story that plays out through the DoW games right through to the Chapter Master turning to Chaos and so on, all that happened in the 40K fluff. If you want to cut the more over references to the Raven/1KSons link, ok fine, but this is a mystery where the answer is kinda obvious but will never be (and should never be) confirmed.

The only problem with that is that if you look at DoW II(where certain things heavily suggest BA as the parent chapter, such as a suspicious number of BA related Chapter relics in the hands of the Blood Ravens, at least one of which the BR claim the BA gave them), before ever being exposed to the books, then the suggestions by Goto don't add up at all.

That ignores the fact that Blood Ravens have absolutely nothing in common with the Blood Angels (geneseed wise), a character trait that every Blood Angels derived chapter exhibits.