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While direct in-universe mentions of a connection between the Blood Ravens and the Thousand Sons is scant, a significant amount of allusion is made to the subject in a variety of sources.
Direct in-universe mentions are "scant"(read: nonexistent outside of C.S. Goto's works)
You mean like the one in A Thousand Sons? This is not the first time I have heard you blame fluff you dislike on CS Goto.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh not this again Kan. You're the only one I know who goes on about how the Blood Ranve/1KSons connection is either false or only exists in DoW. There is a reference to blood ravens and various related paraphernalia within the Horus Heresy novels. Arhiman is part of that group.
But the part that I don't get Kan is why you're so against the idea, and why you're so intractable on the whole issue.
Yup. I don't get it either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/30 21:26:05
2012/03/30 21:31:09
Subject: Re:Soo... Blood ravens are thousand sons ?
I have a nice theory that the Blood Ravens are a 21st (cursed) founding chapter and that them and perhaps other 21st founding chapters were made using the geneseed of the traitor legions, perhaps the Minotaurs are made from the world eaters, hence their love of close combat (they did smash the Lamenters during the Babad war during a fleet action). The High Lords of Terra did do experiments during the founding trying to fix geneseed flaws and create super space marines. Could be that they found some traitor geneseed in storage from before the Heresy, knew that nothing was probably physically wrong with it (did any chapter suffer from geneseed mutations before the heresy?) and attempted to secretly bring back the former traitor legions.
While direct in-universe mentions of a connection between the Blood Ravens and the Thousand Sons is scant, a significant amount of allusion is made to the subject in a variety of sources.
Direct in-universe mentions are "scant"(read: nonexistent outside of C.S. Goto's works)
You mean like the one in A Thousand Sons? This is not the first time I have heard you blame fluff you dislike on CS Goto.
Dude. You're aware that the stuff in "A Thousand Sons" is written purposely vague, yes?
The author has said "Yes, it's meant to confirm the Blood Ravens->Thousand Sons connection"...but he also says that is because it's his own personal belief.
The originator of the Blood Ravens/Thousand Sons crap is C.S. Goto. It all started with the line "Brother" between Ahriman and a Blood Raven, and then when he was asked about it he claimed that a member of the GW design studio told him to do it. Since the design studio had just published an Index Astartes article with no ties between the two--it's safe to say bull.
As a sidenote, I'm happy this link is finally working again:
Here is the Index Astartes article, and I can verify that it IS the exact same as what was published right around the time DOW released. Notice there's only one mention of Magnus, and nothing of the Thousand Sons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/30 22:02:29
2012/03/31 02:13:49
Subject: Re:Soo... Blood ravens are thousand sons ?
Buttons wrote:I have a nice theory that the Blood Ravens are a 21st (cursed) founding chapter and that them and perhaps other 21st founding chapters were made using the geneseed of the traitor legions, perhaps the Minotaurs are made from the world eaters, hence their love of close combat (they did smash the Lamenters during the Babad war during a fleet action). The High Lords of Terra did do experiments during the founding trying to fix geneseed flaws and create super space marines. Could be that they found some traitor geneseed in storage from before the Heresy, knew that nothing was probably physically wrong with it (did any chapter suffer from geneseed mutations before the heresy?) and attempted to secretly bring back the former traitor legions.
I actualy think that is the most reasonable theory I have red so far. Beats the hell out of a company of thousand sons hiding for a couple of thousand years and suddenly popping out going TAAADAAA we are the blood ravens !
For some reason the lexicanum refuses to load in my browser right now... so I can't confirm the time period of the 21st founding.... Could someone please ? I believe the Blood Ravens have been around since 37k, yay? nay ? Again with the annoying lexicanum thing ...
At first I was like say whuuut?! when I read about the link, but I actually like the idea of there being a link !
Spoiler:
On a completly off topic side note, has any of the final possible endings of Dow been declared cannon ? Is angelos the chapter master or is he dead ?
chaos0xomega wrote:That ignores the fact that Blood Ravens have absolutely nothing in common with the Blood Angels (geneseed wise), a character trait that every Blood Angels derived chapter exhibits.
The Lamenters didn't develop those traits until it was changed in the new BA book stating that they only recently started succumbing. Previously, it was even believed that the Lamenters had avoided that fate altogether. However, they had their own flaw due to being part of the Cursed Founding(their whole making everyone sad aura). Who's to say that the Ravens just haven't reached that point?
Also, according to GW, BA are currently the Chapter with the most Librarians due to having a predilection for psykers due to their Primarch being one(their words, not mine). Would still fit the BR's love of them, too.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/03/31 05:27:19
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2012/03/31 05:43:40
Subject: Re:Soo... Blood ravens are thousand sons ?
Buttons wrote:I have a nice theory that the Blood Ravens are a 21st (cursed) founding chapter and that them and perhaps other 21st founding chapters were made using the geneseed of the traitor legions, perhaps the Minotaurs are made from the world eaters, hence their love of close combat (they did smash the Lamenters during the Babad war during a fleet action). The High Lords of Terra did do experiments during the founding trying to fix geneseed flaws and create super space marines. Could be that they found some traitor geneseed in storage from before the Heresy, knew that nothing was probably physically wrong with it (did any chapter suffer from geneseed mutations before the heresy?) and attempted to secretly bring back the former traitor legions.
I actualy think that is the most reasonable theory I have red so far. Beats the hell out of a company of thousand sons hiding for a couple of thousand years and suddenly popping out going TAAADAAA we are the blood ravens !
For some reason the lexicanum refuses to load in my browser right now... so I can't confirm the time period of the 21st founding.... Could someone please ? I believe the Blood Ravens have been around since 37k, yay? nay ? Again with the annoying lexicanum thing ...
At first I was like say whuuut?! when I read about the link, but I actually like the idea of there being a link !
Spoiler:
On a completly off topic side note, has any of the final possible endings of Dow been declared cannon ? Is angelos the chapter master or is he dead ?
Funny, I think that theory doesnt make much sense because it ignores several important hints about the Blood Ravens
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/31 05:48:09
chaos0xomega wrote:That ignores the fact that Blood Ravens have absolutely nothing in common with the Blood Angels (geneseed wise), a character trait that every Blood Angels derived chapter exhibits.
Not to mention that GW has already stated that Blood Ravens are NOT descended from either Blood Angels or Raven Guard.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Joey wrote:Internet neckbeards struggle with the concept of intentional ambiguity.
Typical Joey post Let's throw some petrol on the fire and see what that does. I seriously think you get some kind of kick out of this. There worst part is I can't call you a troll 'cause some of your posts are actually constructive and well thought out...
And the 40k universe is literally one big frak hole where everything contradicts everything. "Ambiguous" is just to kind a word for it imo.
That aside I doubt the BR are BA descendants. My logic is why would there past me shrouded in mystery if it was only to hide that not so special fact ? The whole reason why I think the whole traitor legion geenseed is a possibility is because of how secret there founding is.
Honestly if I discovered they where just more of BA I would be disappointed that they made all this fuss about there founding.
That aside I doubt the BR are BA descendants. My logic is why would there past me shrouded in mystery if it was only to hide that not so special fact ? The whole reason why I think the whole traitor legion geenseed is a possibility is because of how secret there founding is.
Honestly if I discovered they where just more of BA I would be disappointed that they made all this fuss about there founding.
Great point there ^^
Why hide it if you descended from the Blood Angel chapter
5.000 2.000
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, yet you still dare to oppose our will."
Buttons wrote:I have a nice theory that the Blood Ravens are a 21st (cursed) founding chapter and that them and perhaps other 21st founding chapters were made using the geneseed of the traitor legions, perhaps the Minotaurs are made from the world eaters, hence their love of close combat (they did smash the Lamenters during the Babad war during a fleet action). The High Lords of Terra did do experiments during the founding trying to fix geneseed flaws and create super space marines. Could be that they found some traitor geneseed in storage from before the Heresy, knew that nothing was probably physically wrong with it (did any chapter suffer from geneseed mutations before the heresy?) and attempted to secretly bring back the former traitor legions.
I actualy think that is the most reasonable theory I have red so far. Beats the hell out of a company of thousand sons hiding for a couple of thousand years and suddenly popping out going TAAADAAA we are the blood ravens !
For some reason the lexicanum refuses to load in my browser right now... so I can't confirm the time period of the 21st founding.... Could someone please ? I believe the Blood Ravens have been around since 37k, yay? nay ? Again with the annoying lexicanum thing ...
At first I was like say whuuut?! when I read about the link, but I actually like the idea of there being a link !
Spoiler:
On a completly off topic side note, has any of the final possible endings of Dow been declared cannon ? Is angelos the chapter master or is he dead ?
Funny, I think that theory doesnt make much sense because it ignores several important hints about the Blood Ravens
Such as? IIRC their history only goes back to the early 37th millennium while the 21st founding was during the 36th millennium. Also, it would justify their spotty history, no one would want the Blood Ravens to know that they are descended from a traitor legion since it would breed more hate than their thieving ways. As for no one in the Imperium doing such a thing, they are confirmed to have experimented during the 21st founding, which lead to bizarre mutations (like bursting into flames for the love of god) so trying to use the functional geneseed of traitor legions doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
Edit: It would also help explain why they are so prone to falling to Chaos, a large number of Librarians, descended from a legion that had previously fallen to chaos might make easy prey for the Chaos gods.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/31 14:23:19
5.000 
2.000