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This is just a suggestion, it is not a dogma. I don't take this incredibly seriously. Please stop acting like I'm carving a policy in stone.

This is something that's been at me for awhile, and similar stuff always comes up in German I level classes. I'm also wondering if there's anyone else who gets bothered by this.

I know a lot of people like to make German armies, and that's generally fine (depending on your motivation). However, please do not write sentences or phases in German if you don't know the language. You don't need to have mastered it, but at least have a year of learning experience. Single words and such are fine for names, but sentences for titles are where I see things start to deteriorate into oblivion.

Before I go any farther, I want to mention that I used to have the same problem, so I've been there and know the feeling and the temptation. (and it's been a huge annoyance to correct stuff i've written) I'm also now using pseudo German BTW.

Despite the overwhelming linguistic similarities and structure, there are enormous differences in the grammar, word choice, and word order. Even though it might seem like defeating the problems of translation to use a dictionary for each word rather than using Google Translate, you'll still run into massive errors with case, word order, conjugation, and word choice if you don't have even a basic understanding of the language. In fact, I would say that you're better off just using Google Translate if you don't know German (or any language for that matter) since it will at least have an understanding of case and grammar. I came across a story title (that I corrected) called Stahl Wachter die Sturm. It was a good story, but (please let me know if you feel this way too, or if you agree) the title looked awful and took away from the story. I corrected it to Stähler Wächter des Sturm.

Another thing that you should really consider in the 40k universe is not making your titles and names actually be in German, but have a pseudo Germanic language. For example, here's the Fliegenova Festeskaya that I wrote, adding fake Russian endings to the words "Fliegende Festung" to give an appropriate feel.

Mahtamori wrote:Also, I believe that what we can bring with us from this thread is that when butchering a language you better do it intentionally with regularity and severity or comically - or risk embarrassing situations, for you and/or your would be critic.

I.e. if you do it intentionally most would consider it OK, but if you throw it around as a badge of your ignorance... well...

One thing that I really encourage a lot of people who want to build German armies is to really think deeply and ask yourself why you want to build a German army. You're only asking yourself, and thinking it alone, so you are safe to be totally honest; it will only benefit you to do so. If your desire has anything at all to do with WWII, I (in my own personal opinion (well, supported by some other 40k players too)) strongly recommend that you pick another theme to go with; I would also strongly recommend against trying to modify your interest/motivation in the army to something else. Even if your interest is "historical" and (my favorite buzzword) "nonpolitical," as an amateur historian of the Eastern Front and someone who was part of the WWII gaming culture, I strongly recommend that you chose a different army. A good test that I would recommend that you try if you "pass" my question, is to make a list of every fact that you know about German history and culture that is not related to WWII. It might help to write this down, and you can put it in the fireplace when you're done if you want; it only needs to be with you, if you want. You should try to come up with at least ten facts about German history, crossing out anything related to beer or girls. (seriously) If you know at least ten facts about German history that are completely unrelated to WWII, than I would say you have a good, legitimate interest in German history. If you cannot do this, then I strongly suggest that you go back to reflecting on why you want to make German army.

My advice is intended to the general public, particularly based on by experience with German I students and the whole Germanic military craze. There are plenty of historically interested people out there who totally legitimately want to make a grimdark WWI German army for 40k, and who have no need to question their reasons for doing it. Although, I would say that even if you don't think you need to ask yourself, you should do it anyway.

For those who do make a German army, I again very strongly not "toe the line" with what you can acceptably do, and even if there's something that is totally "just a German thing," you should refrain from using it if it's going to generally have negative associations. For example, my experience is that most people seem to thing the red, white, and black flag is a creation of WWII, so I will refrain from using it despite the fact that it completely predates the war by decades.

One good thing that you can do (and I definitely encourage this if you make your own words) is to talk to someone who is well educated about German history and culture about your themes and army. I did this, though mainly it was to make sure that Scharzenkommandoinnen doesn't mean "dump taking commandos." ...And I really hope I didn't mess up on that last word after my little lecture. It is supposed to be "scharzen."

Brother SRM wrote:To be fair I find Nazi armies in a non-WW2/Weird War 2 game to generally be jarring and in bad taste...

SkaerKrow wrote:The fact that we have someone defending Nazis in this thread gives far more credibility to Ehrenstein's point than anything that he could have said himself. Chesh, do some actual research before you try to call other people's points into question.

Here's my list of German knowledge/interests:

Weimar Republic 1919-1933
German Empire 1971-1918
German scientist, including:
Albert Einstein, Fritz Haber
Von Braun, designer of the Saturn V, also an important American
The current flag was also the flag of the German Confederation and the Weimar Republic
The Weimar military flag was the same as the German Empire flag, but with the Weimar flag in the upper left corner.
Turkish-German culture
Aschkenaz
DDR and FRG

I, for one, Love the mid 40's German era. The Tanks and Airplanes are fascinating. The Panzer VII, was one of the best looking tanks, and the Messerschmitt and Stuka are two of the most aesthetically pleasing aircraft of the WWII Era IMO.

They are my models and i will write whatever I want on them.

Why do you care exactly?

DeathReaper wrote:
Why do you care exactly?

Ditto

Does this mean we are also not advised to play the Germans in Flames of War, either?

You're taking the piss right?

If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

+1 with death reaper, I'll put whatever I wish on my models and do so. I usually choose words that look or sound cool and don't worry about what it actually means.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Does this mean we are also not advised to play the Germans in Flames of War, either?

No. That is a historical game. I have no problem with people playing a Wehrmacht or SS army in a game that is about WWII. 40k is not about WWII, so it makes it more likely that someone would be offended.

However, I would be suspicious someone who played a Wehrmacht FoW army who only seemed to be into it because it had Nazis.

I was only give an advice, you are right, you can do whatever you want.


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Magpie wrote:You're taking the piss right?

If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

+1 with death reaper, I'll put whatever I wish on my models and do so. I usually choose words that look or sound cool and don't worry about what it actually means.

I'm not issuing a ban, only advice. The words Scharzenkommando, Fliegenova, and Festeskaya are all completely made up, goofy words. They are fun. The only time I have a problem is when someone tries to write in actual German when they clearly have no idea how to do it.

I'm not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure that Englander, or the German equivalent is the term that is used.

Magpie wrote:
If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

So does that mean all those bits in the Commando comics where the German soldiers say, "Die Tommy!!!!! AARRRGHHHHHH!" *BOOM* as they get strafed by a Spitfire are also incorrect?!?!

Why are you so obsessed with armies not being based on WW2 germans when you have an entire wiki that's dedicated to fluff clearly based on WW2 germans? Some kind of self-hate?

To the main topic at hand, I actually find that the best way to take german names is to mix them with english into an imaginary word that sounds cool. F.ex: Jagd Lion sounds cooler than Jagd Löwe (which I believe is the german word for lion) IMO
Using pure german unless you are a german is kind of silly in this setting IMO.

So where's your problem with GW butchering latin for "high gothic"?

For reference, I'm kinda multilingual. I speak Latin, German, Japanese, and Persian fluently, and I'm "tourist-fluent" in a smattering of others.

I don't really see the point. You even mentioned in your post that "it only benefits [them]", so why are you raging on it?

I believe it should be enforced that Eldar Players not fluent in Sanscrit may no longer field an Avatar.

I think you are sitting very much in a glass house over there.

While I can understand your sentiment, as I do love words and actually made correcting mistakes my profession for a while, you don't seem to be really close enough to fluent in German to be telling others who are not fluent not to use it. For example, while "Stählerner Wächter des Sturm" is closer to correct than the version you corrected, it is still wrong: "des Sturms" would be correct. And the word choices themselves are actually very good, creating an emotional title - so the guy who wrote the original may not be fluent grammatically, but he already has a knack for style.

On the whole, I think it is a lot more forgiveable (and thus enjoyable) to see German used completely incorrectly as a way to have a few funny names than to see someone try to make up good, correct German names and fail.

Your own "Sturmkrieg" and "Anonymafräulein" are more like examples of the former - they look funky, but as a German I can tell you that they do not make much sense at all. "Sturmkrieg", while a grammatically acceptable combination of nouns, does not really seem to say anything - if it were "Kriegssturm", it would make a lot more sense. That would basically mean "storm of war". But "Sturmkrieg" could at most be used to describe a weather anomaly where two storms, maybe hurricanes, meet and create even more disaster all round. Nobody would actually think it had anything to do with actual war.

Let's not go into what "Anonymafräulein" could mean, aside from being grammatically dubious. And "Scharzenkommandoinnen" isn't even close to being correct. "Scharzen" is no word. Maybe you meant "Schanzen" (=battlements). "Kommando" means command (noun), but the ending "innen" cannot be applied to it.

So if you want to be a German grammar nazi, shoot yourself first, please.

Skylifter wrote:So if you want to be a German grammar nazi, shoot yourself first, please.

Have my babies?

Since you obviously care about those things, it's Stählerner Wächter des Sturms, there is no female version of "Kommando", "scharzen" is not a word and I'm not sure how Aschkenaz is related to the other things you mentioned.

It should also be GDR and FRG(English abbreviations) or DDR and BRD (German abbreviations).

Wernher Von Braun also invented the V2 rocket and didn't exactly stop being a German after the US cleared his file of all his crimes and put him on their NASA projects

Our current flag was also used by the revolutionaries in the German revolution 1848, which, unlike the French revolution, failed miserably because they were basically all shot dead by government troops.

See, I didn't even notice he wrote "Stähler" instead of "Stählerner", too. I was just too occupied with disbelief.

Wow, this thread is getting entertaining now. To the OP, you should not poke your nose into others business like that.

Pacific wrote:

Magpie wrote:
If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

So does that mean all those bits in the Commando comics where the German soldiers say, "Die Tommy!!!!! AARRRGHHHHHH!" *BOOM* as they get strafed by a Spitfire are also incorrect?!?!

No No I'm certain they actually did talk like that, I mean Commando comics don't lie ...... do they?

I was just shirty that "we" are Australians not Englanders

I'd just like to make it crystal clear as well that if I go to one more Tourny and see "gerday" or "kudday" or heaven for bid "good day" written on a Stormraven, instead of the established Australian "G'day" there is going to be BIG trouble.

You trying to tell me that Australia isn't just a British penal colony anymore?

Pull the other one, it stretches..

Zweischneid wrote:I believe it should be enforced that Eldar Players not fluent in Sanscrit may no longer field an Avatar.

No Eldar entirely unless they are fluent in the language of gems, nor Wood Elves unless they know the language of the flowers or IoM unless they are able to scry the skulls for meaning.

There's actually a fairly comprehensive Eldar dictionary around somewhere, and it's got decent grammar rules to the language as well.

Aha, 30 seconds on google found the dictionary: http://thefallenprinces.blogspot.com/2010/08/eldar-dictionary.html

Also, just like high gothic butchers Latin, Eldar kinda butchers Gaelic (something I tried to learn via "language learning tapes" back when I was a celtophile, but only remember enough of now to impress people).

Yeh, I had actually edited that out of my post before posting it as the language didn't appear on the models in that fashion.

A lot more depth to it than the one I had a link to before. But has a couple of extra sentences like "Nil ann ach cleasai, agus tá an iomad measa aige air féin." and "Elthir corannir rhiantha en.". Of course it doesn't go much further than painting the old alchemical symbols on tanks.

For example sulfur.


Phosphorus

Chesh wrote:You trying to tell me that Australia isn't just a British penal colony anymore?

Pull the other one, it stretches..

Hey you lot started as a penal colony too don't forget Amerikana !

Only the minority of the 13 colonies were penal colonies.

Hey...that was only ah...Georgia? What I find amusing is that the Russians in WWII loved to write stuff on their armor. So one time I break out this book with Russian armor slang pictures with some Russian friends and they look at it and say "untranslatable ". I reply WTF. They said that many of the names were probably combinations of names of the crew, or even assembly crew in some cases. They also went on about the level of literacy of the people that did the writing, suggesting spelling errors on some of the more translatable ones. Some were probably some version of onomatopoeia. Mostly they were " made up names" they said. They also could have been pulling my leg. In short, if Russian army soldiers couldn't translate crap their grandfathers scribbled on real tanks, I see no reason why my scifi tanks can not have butchered English, German, Australian, or Fandar.

Otto von Bismarck, Frederick William the Great Elector, Frederick the Great, Helmuth von Moltke, Martin Luther, Gottfried Liebnitz, Max Planck --

Did I pass yet, darling?

When's the German history exam?

Jesus Christ.

Honestly, using "spotty" German (or any other language) in 40k is probably a bit more fluff-accurate than using perfect German . Do we really believe that language will not change in the next 38,000 years? That individual worlds will not display variations on dialect, form or conjugation? The fact that 40k isn't littered with a ton of new slang and common use English language words probably has more to do with the writers wanting to keep the books accessible than it does any sensible creative decision.

As for the suitability of 1940's German era armies in 40k, why not? Warhammer 40k has a space Red Army (an army that committed atrocities in the real world) and space Mongols (an army that committed atrocities in the real world), so the setting clearly isn't shy about drawing inspiration from less savory characters in military history. If someone was to model their entire army as goose-stepping, swastika wearing SS men with bolters, or write army fluff about how their army herds up Eldar and forces them into gas showers, then yes, that person is basically playing Nazis in space and is probably a dodgy sort of character who is going to offend a lot of reasonable people. But equipment patterns like the Stahlhelm and Panzer tank have entered the cultural conscience as something separate from the Holocaust and its perpetrators, perhaps because of their (over)exposure in popular films and video games. Being someone that plays a German-inspired 40k army, I can tell you that my army attracts a lot of attention at the FLGS, and not once has anyone expressed offense by my choice in models, nor has anyone made any sort of Nazi-related comments about my force.

I'm not sure what your beef is, Ehrenstein, but it seems odd that you, who plays an army of Space Germans, would take so much offense at other people playing Space Germans themselves.

Everyone knows that in the grim darkness of the future, everyone has a British accent.

I just thought I'd come into a thread to see someone telling folks not to make Nazi armies. What I got was so much more. To be fair I find Nazi armies in a non-WW2/Weird War 2 game to generally be jarring and in bad taste, but the OP's smugness and Dakka reaction in this thread are solid gold.

TedNugent wrote:Everyone knows that in the grim darkness of the future, everyone has a British accent.

LOL



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Brother SRM wrote:I just thought I'd come into a thread to see someone telling folks not to make Nazi armies. What I got was so much more. To be fair I find Nazi armies in a non-WW2/Weird War 2 game to generally be jarring and in bad taste, but the OP's smugness and Dakka reaction in this thread are solid gold.

Where do you think I went wrong?

Actually, Genghis Khan, and his successor Kublai Kahn weren't as brutal as they've been built up to sound. Most of their "conquests" were diplomatic ones, and Genghis was quite the poet.

Some of his accomplishments:
- Founded a rudimentary postal network
- Introduced paper currency (to my knowledge, other than "military scrip" this was the first actual valued paper currency)
- Fostered religious tolerance in his empire
- Set up a "privilege tax" system, where scientists, doctors, and teachers were tax free
- Followed the example of Alexander the Great and allowed conquered nations to self-govern
- Eliminated starvation and most corruption throughout his empire, leading to China's "golden age"

The "millions upon millions of innocents" thing is a bit of propaganda that's simply taken as fact due to the lack of most evidence to the contrary. While he did defeat countries militarily, that's a far cry from the idea of total war that was espoused by Europeans much later. He was a brilliant military tactician, and his victories on the field were often so decisive that entire nations would surrender without a fight, and that's likely the source of the idea that he was a vicious conqueror that had a throne made of infant skulls and a bag full of heads or something.

Not gonna argue the soviet thing though - Stalin was a horrible, horrible person; although I do caution against judging an entire country based on the actions of one evil leader. If the Cold War hadn't Been A Thing, the USSR wouldn't have collapsed. There was such a drive toward "winning" that war for the soviets that it allowed corruption to flourish in the government, which lead to not only economic collapse, but also mass secession of most of the outer soviet states.

SkaerKrow wrote:Honestly, using "spotty" German (or any other language) in 40k is probably a bit more fluff-accurate than using perfect German . Do we really believe that language will not change in the next 38,000 years? That individual worlds will not display variations on dialect, form or conjugation? The fact that 40k isn't littered with a ton of new slang and common use English language words probably has more to do with the writers wanting to keep the books accessible than it does any sensible creative decision.

I made a distinction in the OP between deliberately modified, incorrect, and goofy German that is designed to be a new language, as opposed to people actually trying to write correctly and being unsuccessful at it. I realize I'm not perfect, but it just seems off to me when someone tries to write a sentence or so in an attempted full translation. Even if they got it perfect, I would prefer they make up words for 40k, but I don't feel strongly either way.

SkaerKrow wrote:As for the suitability of 1940's German era armies in 40k, why not? Warhammer 40k has a space Red Army (an army that committed atrocities in the real world) and space Mongols (an army that committed atrocities in the real world), so the setting clearly isn't shy about drawing inspiration from less savory characters in military history. If someone was to model their entire army as goose-stepping, swastika wearing SS men with bolters, or write army fluff about how their army herds up Eldar and forces them into gas showers, then yes, that person is basically playing Nazis in space and is probably a dodgy sort of character who is going to offend a lot of reasonable people. But equipment patterns like the Stahlhelm and Panzer tank have entered the cultural conscience as something separate from the Holocaust and its perpetrators, perhaps because of their (over)exposure in popular films and video games. Being someone that plays a German-inspired 40k army, I can tell you that my army attracts a lot of attention at the FLGS, and not once has anyone expressed offense by my choice in models, nor has anyone made any sort of Nazi-related comments about my force.

The thing is that those armies aren't offensive in western culture. i agree with the points you mentioned above. The only thing I really have an issue with is when people come out and deliberately make a Wehrmacht, as opposed to generic German armies.

SkaerKrow wrote:I'm not sure what your beef is, Ehrenstein, but it seems odd that you, who plays an army of Space Germans, would take so much offense at other people playing Space Germans themselves.

The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.