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blood reaper wrote:To the OP.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Never, ever, in the existence of ever, shall I never, ever positively never not use German themed stuff in 40k.

Once again, there is nowhere where I established any sort of prohibition on German symbolism. You all are the only ones getting worked up about this, not me.


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Skriker wrote:I do love when people get on their high horse over silly things. It is one thing to create a 40k army covered in swastikas that will offend plenty of people are are sensitive to things like that. It is completely different to create a 40k army using German WWII vehicles and colorings with swastikas. For another thing people are REALLY offended by any kind of WWII related imagery really won't care if the game is "historical" or not if they swastikas represented on the minis. Many in the world are completely offended by seeing a swastika represented anywhere for whatever purpose. Even though the basic symbol has been around for millennia, the nazis "broke" it.

As for the german language issues you are having, why do you care what other people put on their minis? Who cares if they are massacreing a language that is not their own to put some cool looking/sounding slogans on their banners and the like. Get over it and you'll be happier. I actually know Japanese and the Kanji alphabet, but I am not really going out of my way for grammatical correctness on a new 40k rengades army I am building that uses a bunch of WWII Japanese and US vehicles/tanks and has them marked in chaos symbols and various Kanji symbols. If it looks cool I use it whether the grammar is "correct" or not.

Those things said my first 40k Imperial Guard army had a german Wermacht theme to it. The troops were painted in a similar grey/green color with histori colors used on belts, straps and accutrements. The armored vehicles were all 1/35 scale german model kits. PZIII and IV for Leman Russ tanks, PZIIs and pZ38ts for use as chimera, a hornisse SP '88 for a basilisk, a converted braumbar as a Griffon, and even a StuG III converted to be a hellhound. The army was well painted and historically done. I've long been an amateur WWII historian and had modeled WWII tanks, vehicles and troops in 1/35 scale for most of my life. This was a way for me to combine two parts of my hobby since the 1/35 scale armor kits are just a much bigger joy to build and much more highly detailed than GW vehicle kits are. No one got offended by my army or said anything negative about it ever. I eventually sold it off in pieces to raise cash to build a different army.

My current chaos renegades army is using WWII Japanese and US tank and vehicle kits in 1/35 as the basis for the armored part of the force. Should I panic about using those too, as someone might be offended by then or is it only "german" themed armies that are negative and bad?

Yes covering your army in swastikas is going to bother some people, but that doesn't mean we all need a lecture in using a "german theme" in our armies outside of historical games...

As an amateur historian of WWII, I think that making a WWII based army is alright. Generally, I would prefer that it not be a carbon copy of a real army since it is fantasy, but it doesn't really matter to me. People can do whatever they want. I have a friend who planned to make armies with themes that were entirely humorous. I thought it was funny and didn't nerd rage over the fact that it's not grimdark.


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Skriker wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I would only say that it does that in the sense that you get a lot of kiddies who think it's cool to play on the Nazi team, but Call of Duty, especially World at War, I think does a decent job of showing the brutality of the Germans.

I've studied psychology, and the thing I worry about with people who play as the Wehrmacht who also don't have a good historical understanding of them is the self justification that they go through. Basically, we need to feel good about ourselves, and we need to feel that we are good and in the right. When something challenges that, we end up with cognative dissonance. To restore our "good feeling" about ourselves, we must justify why we are in the right. It's much easier to adapt our reality than it is to admit we are in the wrong, or to adapt our schema.

So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

This is the thought process I see happening. If anyone else has a background in social psychology, please add your thoughts.

I play a Wehrmacht army
The Wehrmacht is bad
I am bad
I am not bad
How is it that I am not bad
The Wehrmacht must not be bad

I'm also not going to generalize and say that everyone does this, and I am sure that there are people who have an understanding of the Wehrmacht who play such armies, and who do not worry about what it says about themselves. Maybe my concern is false, but it's just something I see as potential.

The simple fact is that there are *NO* good guys in war. ALL sides do horrible things in the name of nationalistic furvor, orders or just plain trying to survive the war. Your crazy psychology is pretty off base too. If a person is establishing their worth as a human being on an army of little metal and plastic miniatures they have more significant problems that trying to justify that the wermacht were a bunch of nice guys.

The real thought process of a rational person:
I play a Wermacht army
It is a game
I am not a representative of the wermacht
It is a game.
Let's play!

Your psychology is pretty over dramatized and as I said would more likely come from someone who has some real mental issues that ultimately have nothing to do with their playing of a wermacht army in the first place. Yes *some* people play and paint their forces in wermacht or SS colors because they are deluded and misguided and think they are awesome. Most, though, do it to bring an historical aspect into their fantasy gaming and I see it no different than painting up your marines in offwhite with red crusader crosses and markings all over them. Not everyone is doing it and it could just look really cool when all completely and painted.

Skriker

I think you're probably right. I probably did get (I'm not quite sure for the word) over simplified and a bit of an extreme scenario. It's also really quite theoretical. It's also a problem of the hammer seeing every problem as a nail.

If I were to play against someone who plays a Wehrmacht army, I probably won't care, as you say. I just don't condone it. Especially someone who is actually interested in the historical aspects of the Wehrmacht is playing. The group of people I'm only looking out for are the kids who don't give a bolter about history and think that they're really cool and bad*** because they play a Nazi army. I wouldn't give those people a second thought; I just think they should be aware of the social consequences of their actions.


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I have a friend who wants to do a carbon copy of the Soviet Union BTW. Yes, I let him know it doesn't really fit into a futuristic fantasy world, but I still think it's fun and I don't nerd rage over it. It's actually coming really well.

That's pretty much my thought on historical carbon copy armies. I wouldn't make an exact copy of an army from one time period, but I don't have anything against people who do.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I think you're probably right. I probably did get (I'm not quite sure for the word) over simplified and a bit of an extreme scenario. It's also really quite theoretical. It's also a problem of the hammer seeing every problem as a nail.

If I were to play against someone who plays a Wehrmacht army, I probably won't care, as you say. I just don't condone it. Especially someone who is actually interested in the historical aspects of the Wehrmacht is playing. The group of people I'm only looking out for are the kids who don't give a bolter about history and think that they're really cool and bad*** because they play a Nazi army. I wouldn't give those people a second thought; I just think they should be aware of the social consequences of their actions.

Wow how many posts can one person quote in a single response message??

Yeah the kids who do it because they think it makes them cool are dumb for sure, but probably aren't the audience you are reaching here, hence all the responses you've gotten. If they don't understand the ramifications of nazifying their army *before* they do it, it is highly likely that they will feel the pain *after* they do it. Either way it will be a learning experience for them. With luck they are just being stupid and aren't actually little neo-nazis in training and will eventually learn that shock value really doesn't have any value at all...

Skriker

Yeah, they were "automatically appended." It's better than constant multi posts and getting yelled at by the mods...

Yeah, that's definitely the case. Hopefully it means that the people here aren't the kind of people who I'm addressing.

I would say that they probably would learn, eventually at least. I was never really in that stage, but I understand where they're coming from. I always had the sense (and I never really wanted to anyway) to not make Sturmkrieg a Nazi army. It has changed somewhat though; the original Scharzenkommando uniforms (to the German who nerd raged, I [b[said in the OP[/i] that the word Scharzenkommando was made up, and specifically ensured that it was made up) have changed a lot within the past four years.

I think becoming a complete pariah would definitely show them that people don't exactly take well to arbitrarily Nazified armies. To that end, I think GW store communities would be a lot more rejecting than FLGS, where people commonly play historical games. In a GW, they'd stand out way more. I'm pretty sure that all GW stores have a prohibition on the swastika too.

I generally don't worry about whether people are actually Nazis, as long as their army is blatantly a Nazi army. Sounds strange, but if it's obvious, it's probably just some high school kiddie who's in the "Nazis had cool weapons and uniforms phase" whereas an actual Neo Nazi probably would go for something more Neo Nazish.

To give an example, I put this army down to immaturity,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

Whereas I have serious political concerns about this guy who build this army:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

The fact that it isn't a WWII army, has constant Nordic symbolism, and interspersed vague Nazi themes is what causes the alarm for me.

And your reasons for starting this tread, except stepping on the toes of gamers? How someone paint & moddel their army is none of your concern really.

So to make it short, Mind your own damned buisnins boy!

@Inquisitor Ehrenstein- Your obviously too sensitive to people's Wehrmacht paint schemes, you obviously are annoyed by the fact someone could think the uniform of a force considered evil was 'cool' is wrong.

The fact is, if they plastered swastikas, anti Jewish, etc. then they're is a sense of immorality. However, basing an army of a period of time is not wrong, and your criticism is overly sensitive.

CrashCanuck wrote:

Prime example Adeptus Astartes isn't actually latin, just sounds like latin, isn't hard to pronounce and sounds like it might mean space marine.

Actually, Adeptus is a real Latin word. It's the perfect participle of adipīscor and means overtaken or obtained.

If nothing else you could always go to the outrageously Holy Roman Empire-inspired Empire army from WHFB.

Landschneckt, anyone?

As someone who speaks german as a native language and had latin for about 5 years in school I get to see
fethed up names, titles and slogans all the time. Do I care? Nope.
But with the whole WWII Theme I really got a problem. I mean.. Isn't the whole Empire thing with it's xenophobic
attitude allready enough "nazi" to work with?

I personaly hate war, violence and stupid ideas like Rassentrennung in real life, so I don't want my games ruined by that too.
(Fictional war and violance against fictonal orks is ok so )

For the pseudo-german:
Feel free to write me a pn for translation, I can prevent mistakes like OPs if desired

TedNugent wrote:If nothing else you could always go to the outrageously Holy Roman Empire-inspired Empire army from WHFB.

Landschneckt, anyone?

You mean Landsknecht. "Landschneckt" isn't a word, but if I were to translate it to English, it would look like this: [he/she/it is] landsnailing. Because Schnecke is German for snail and the t at the end could be third person singular present tense or present progressive.

So in short: funny!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page
Wow now that was some awesome painting.

Sure if your easilly offended the imagary on some of those could be troubling but serious political concern?

Its all a matter of opinion, I have a napoleonic British theme, based on an army that over time carved out an empire in a pretty brutal way. Some could take offense to it, im not going to stop but I can appreciate the opinion. The post just seems a little pointless, as it seems to be simply saying I dont like Nazi related armies and bad German grammer.

As to the German army and SS I would have no issue with them, I believe as both an historical and sci fi gamer one can appreciate the fighting skills and look of an army whilst not agreeing with its actions or political views.

lampy wrote:

Its all a matter of opinion, I have a napoleonic British theme, based on an army that over time carved out an empire in a pretty brutal way. Some could take offense to it, im not going to stop but I can appreciate the opinion.
As to the German army and SS I would have no issue with them, I believe as both an historical and sci fi gamer one can appreciate the fighting skills and look of an army whilst not agreeing with its actions or political views.

It´s a difference! I am sure no ones grandparents got murdered by Napoleon.
Maybe in the US it´s different, but when I would be to play against an literal SS army, I would hit that player in the face.

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

The point im making is that themed armies may offend someone whatever the era the British army of the 1800's and onwards carried out some very bloody wars in India,Africa. Burma etc some people in those areas find reminders of that era offensive. Im actually British but for some reason says US. As it happens Members of my family fought and died in both wars against Germany but i still wouldnt have a problem as long as the player didnt start spouting Nazi ideals at me over the table!
Personally id find someone punching a guy in the face for the paint job on his army more offensive than anything he puts on his models, I don't have to play him and can just walk away.

Ventusgermany wrote:

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

Ventusgermany wrote:As someone who speaks german as a native language and had latin for about 5 years in school I get to see
fethed up names, titles and slogans all the time. Do I care? Nope.
But with the whole WWII Theme I really got a problem. I mean.. Isn't the whole Empire thing with it's xenophobic
attitude allready enough "nazi" to work with?

I personaly hate war, violence and stupid ideas like Rassentrennung in real life, so I don't want my games ruined by that too.
(Fictional war and violance against fictonal orks is ok so )

For the pseudo-german:
Feel free to write me a pn for translation, I can prevent mistakes like OPs if desired

Thanks. Some of the differences I might leave, but anything that's clearly a mistake, I would want to correct.


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Skylifter wrote:

Ventusgermany wrote:

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

He has an exact copy of the Nazi eagle on one of the Bulldozer, only without the swastika.

Skylifter wrote:
Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

Thor, and the whole nordish mythology as a whole, were used and the ideas behind it where corrupted back then. Thor himself has nothing to do with it, thats right, but when he is on the same tank, that has a red flag, with a white circle, and a black cross on it, it´s clearly shown, that the theme of that army isn´t nordish pagans, but nazis.

Nazi zombies is a different story, I agree with you there, and is something that I find very funny too.

So, you want to limit peoples right to paint the army in a paint scheme of their liking as well as tell them what to write and what not to write? Im failry sure that there exists a political ideology that strives to do just that...whats it called again? Yeah, thats right, fascism.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:

Ventusgermany wrote:

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

He has an exact copy of the Nazi eagle on one of the Bulldozer, only without the swastika.

Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:To give an example, I put this army down to immaturity,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

Whereas I have serious political concerns about this guy who build this army:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

The fact that it isn't a WWII army, has constant Nordic symbolism, and interspersed vague Nazi themes is what causes the alarm for me.

Not sure I share much concern of either of those. The 2nd army especially is themed on a number of different things spelled out by the creator: WFB Empire (which is heavily germanic in its feel), WWII german forces and thor. So I am unsurprised by the nordic symbolism in the least. Also you can see the WW2 influence, without it being a slap in the face to anyone who looks at it by covering things in swastikas. Methinks you are reading a lot more into it than is intended. I look at it and see a dedicated modeller who went with a combined theme and carried it through with some amazing conversions added into the mix. I guess I just look at it as an army for a sci-fi game and don't try to put any further weight to the imagery than that. I will say that some of the banners do look like WWII recruitment and propaganda posters, but all sides used similar kind of imagery in the posters of the period.

Either way I do think you are worried about nothing here, just my opinion.

Skriker


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Ventusgermany wrote:It´s a difference! I am sure no ones grandparents got murdered by Napoleon.
Maybe in the US it´s different, but when I would be to play against an literal SS army, I would hit that player in the face.

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Noble space marine army? Really? They wipe out entire planetary populations because they don't want to support the emperor. Nothing noble about that in the least. Space Marines are just another evil in the 40k universe of expanding shades of gray.

As for grandparents being killed by Napoleon, I am sure plenty were killed in the Napoleonic wars and their families mourned for them. The point wasn't about Napoleon, though, it was about the british empire. The british, through multiple centuries, established an empire around the world, subjugating and abusing native peoples and taking the profits of their hard work and efforts all in the name of "civilizing them". In fact African tribes, to this day, are killing each other over tribal separations imposed on them by colonial powers like the British to keep them from unifying against them and it is *still* working and *still* impacts the lives of millions every day.

The Nazis were truly and fully in power in Germany for less than 20 years. They did some horrible things and started a war that killed millions during that time and the history of those actions is still pretty fresh in people's minds, but 20 years of nastieness compared to *centuries* of questionable colonial policies, subjugation and wars just doesn't even come close in my mind. We have failed as humans when the appearance of a swastika somwhere generates 1000000% more concern and outrage than the actual ethnic cleansing that still happens every day in the world.

Yes a space marine with waving swastikas would be a no-go in Germany, but given that the symbol is completely illegal to be shown on German soil that really isn't a surprise either.

Skriker

Skylifter wrote:
Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference. There's a lot of German words that are forbidden, or at least strange to use. I wish people would stop using IG names like "69th Sturmpanzergenadierregiment." The main issue is that it's too overused, and is completely unoriginal. But I don't really care too much anyway. It does get back to my "Why are they building a German army" question.


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Skriker wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:To give an example, I put this army down to immaturity,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

Whereas I have serious political concerns about this guy who build this army:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

The fact that it isn't a WWII army, has constant Nordic symbolism, and interspersed vague Nazi themes is what causes the alarm for me.

Not sure I share much concern of either of those. The 2nd army especially is themed on a number of different things spelled out by the creator: WFB Empire (which is heavily germanic in its feel), WWII german forces and thor. So I am unsurprised by the nordic symbolism in the least. Also you can see the WW2 influence, without it being a slap in the face to anyone who looks at it by covering things in swastikas. Methinks you are reading a lot more into it than is intended. I look at it and see a dedicated modeller who went with a combined theme and carried it through with some amazing conversions added into the mix. I guess I just look at it as an army for a sci-fi game and don't try to put any further weight to the imagery than that. I will say that some of the banners do look like WWII recruitment and propaganda posters, but all sides used similar kind of imagery in the posters of the period.

Either way I do think you are worried about nothing here, just my opinion.

Skriker

That is a possibility that should be kept open, but as someone who has studied Nazis, then and now, I have to say it is very unlikely. Someone in the original discussion also pointed it out. I highly doubt that someone would "accidentally" build up a perfectly themed neo Nazi army. Although, we should keep a mind open to your idea.

So. Much. Overreaction.

Seriously guys, how about we ask the Hindus how they feel about the issue? The swastika was stolen from their religion. It's a symbolic representation of the god Ganesha, and associated with success and good luck.

And if you have a problem with eagle iconography, well, HEY THE OFFICIAL BIRD OF THE UNITED STATES IS A FETHING EAGLE.

I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good for their country - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.

Vehemently.

It's like you're making it out to be some famous sports star or something whose jersey has been retired, and nobody will ever wear that number for that team again. Eventually we're going to have to start printing jersey numbers really really tiny in order to fit all the zeroes on it once we run out of numbers between 1 and 100.

Just like the swastika was stolen from the Hindu religion, iconography has been stolen, recycled, "updated" and "modernized" since pretty much the beginning of time. Are we going to say that all the nordic art featuring lightning bolts and thunder is off-limits just because the insignia for the Schutzstaffel used lightning bolts?

The iron eagle is a pretty cool image on its own merits. Just leave it at that and stop assigning significance to it - in the grand scheme of things it really IS insignificant.

Chesh wrote:So. Much. Overreaction.

Seriously guys, how about we ask the Hindus how they feel about the issue? The swastika was stolen from their religion. It's a symbolic representation of the god Ganesha, and associated with success and good luck.

And if you have a problem with eagle iconography, well, HEY THE OFFICIAL BIRD OF THE UNITED STATES IS A FETHING EAGLE.

I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good for their country - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.

Vehemently.

It's like you're making it out to be some famous sports star or something whose jersey has been retired, and nobody will ever wear that number for that team again. Eventually we're going to have to start printing jersey numbers really really tiny in order to fit all the zeroes on it once we run out of numbers between 1 and 100.

Just like the swastika was stolen from the Hindu religion, iconography has been stolen, recycled, "updated" and "modernized" since pretty much the beginning of time. Are we going to say that all the nordic art featuring lightning bolts and thunder is off-limits just because the insignia for the Schutzstaffel used lightning bolts?

The iron eagle is a pretty cool image on its own merits. Just leave it at that and stop assigning significance to it - in the grand scheme of things it really IS insignificant.

I'm not saying it's off limits. If you want to use it go ahead. Don't complain when no one plays against you. If people at your store don't care, that fine. It doesn't matter to us.

Oh, and here's an example of the "great service" that the Nazis did for their country:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1175&bih=636&q=bombing+of+dresden&gbv=2&oq=bombing+of+dresden&aq=f&aqi=g8g-ms1g-m1&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l8j0i5i10j0i5.1128l5886l0l6214l22l22l1l3l3l0l107l1057l15j1l16l0.frgbld.


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I also doubt that actively assisting the Red Army in committing mass rape and murder against Germans as punishment for losing the war, and as a way of "motivating" the people in the unoccupied regions to fight harder is really "good for their country."

Nazi armies in games outside of WWII settings is pretty stupid and in bad taste imo. The same would apply to a KKK style army or the like as well. GW already has German militaristic culture reflected in Krieg and Armageddon, there's really no need to take it further.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:
Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference. There's a lot of German words that are forbidden, or at least strange to use. I wish people would stop using IG names like "69th Sturmpanzergenadierregiment." The main issue is that it's too overused, and is completely unoriginal. But I don't really care too much anyway. It does get back to my "Why are they building a German army" question.

You mean that symbol which looks almost identical to the imperial aquila except for the latter having two heads? Or even like the IG skull eagle? Well, feth, I'm not going to use that on my models then if I ever travel to america...

Seriously, you made a fool of yourself, first by telling others not to use false German when you cannot do it any better, then by trying to row back and saying how you were doing it wrong on purpose, now you try to argue that there were hard and fast rules about what symbols you can or can not use when that is clearly a matter of personal opinion.*

I am not saying you were a fool, but you should just stop trying to argue this. You will not convince anyone. I will have a much easier time trying to respect you if you can at least admit defeat instead of childishly repeating that everyone else were wrong.


* The exception being actual laws. In Germany, you may not display a swastika openly, unless it is absolutely obvious from the context that it is intended for educational purposes, or, in fact, actually used as a religious symbol. But I doubt that there is a law in the US that you cannot use that eagle you linked to. And neither is there in Germany, and for good reason.

Chesh wrote:I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good for their country - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.

The fact that we have someone defending Nazis in this thread gives far more credibility to Ehrenstein's point than anything that he could have said himself. Chesh, do some actual research before you try to call other people's points into question.

Chesh wrote:
I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good [i]for their country[/i] - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.
.

You, Sir, please leave my internet. That was the most stupid most I EVER read. Don´t come me with the damn Autobahn. A highway can´t compensate millions of life. Please, do the research you told me to do first.

Mhmm. You mean things like:

- Supporting the growth of small businesses
- Removing a lot of the classism and putting a lot of power in the hands of the people who were being abused by the "nobility"
- Being responsible for most of the industrial growth that modernized Germany and caught the nation up to the countries that got a jumpstart on the industrial revolution throughout Europe
- Preventing Germany from becoming a communist nation, which would have completely shattered the economy and eventually lead to a peasant revolt
- Supporting scientific research, such as the development of the X-Ray machine, along with many other HUGE developments in the fields of medicine and engineering
- Implemented sweeping social reforms that made life better for the poor

Etc...

Don't mistake the party with the army. Sure, they (the party) were xenophobic aryans that were anti-capitalist, anti-semitic, anti-a lot of things, but they did a lot of good for the country. Then Hitler wrecked it all by being a charismatic embodiment of pure evil that took over the country just when the nationalist feelings were running the highest, thanks to the nazi party instilling a sense of national pride in "just being German" after being soundly defeated during WWI.

You also have to view the issue in the context of the times.

Germany had, thanks to Kaiser WIlhelm II removing Otto von Bismarck from the office of Chancellor, broken every treaty it ever participated in that stabilized Europe after the formation of the country a quarter-century prior to WWI (not exactly "broken" in the sense that hostilities broke out, but rather just let the treaties lapse due to non-interest and a certain will to power on Wilhelm II's part). That lead directly to WWI, then Germany got their asses handed to them by nations that were still harboring resentment over how Bismarck's politicking and tactical brilliance carved the country of Germany out of a large part of Austria and France.

That's when the nazi party grew. Partly out of resentment (it always sucks to lose a war)...

To be continued, I have to run for a bit. But we can just let it stand at "I've done my fething research" if you'd rather.

You forgot the part where they persecuted any German citizen that didn't adhere to their beliefs, and then mired the country in a hopeless genocidal war that literally eradicated an entire generation of their own people (not to mention the lives lost by their Axis partners and the Allies that fought against them). Your facts are tremendously flawed because they're subjective in scope. If a mass murderer gives $100 to charity, he's still a mass murderer. If you look at the complete body of work of the Nazi party, "purely evil" does pretty much fit the bill.

This isn't a topic about whether or not Nazis are bad (they are, full stop), it's about the suitability of using a German theme in one's Warhammer 40k army.

If we're banning people from misconstruing verbiage, can we include the British people that try American Slang?

I swear, if I see another tank with the slogan 'Kicking arse and taking names', I'm gonna have a fit.

Skylifter wrote:

You mean that symbol which looks almost identical to the imperial aquila except for the latter having two heads? Or even like the IG skull eagle? Well, feth, I'm not going to use that on my models then if I ever travel to america...

Seriously, you made a fool of yourself, first by telling others not to use false German when you cannot do it any better, then by trying to row back and saying how you were doing it wrong on purpose, now you try to argue that there were hard and fast rules about what symbols you can or can not use when that is clearly a matter of personal opinion.*

I am not saying you were a fool, but you should just stop trying to argue this. You will not convince anyone. I will have a much easier time trying to respect you if you can at least admit defeat instead of childishly repeating that everyone else were wrong.


* The exception being actual laws. In Germany, you may not display a swastika openly, unless it is absolutely obvious from the context that it is intended for educational purposes, or, in fact, actually used as a religious symbol. But I doubt that there is a law in the US that you cannot use that eagle you linked to. And neither is there in Germany, and for good reason.

I realize my claiming that the symbol was forbidden was totally over the top.

Yeah, I realize it was wrong of me to bring this up. As one of the other users mentioned, I was directing this at a group of people who aren't here.

I want to make it clear that I don't have an intention of setting a rule, I was only offering a suggestion. And at that, it was clearly unnecessary and totally ineffective.


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KplKeegan wrote:If we're banning people from misconstruing verbiage, can we include the British people that try American Slang?

I swear, if I see another tank with the slogan 'Kicking arse and taking names', I'm gonna have a fit.

I wasn't attempting in any way to "ban" people from doing stuff. I tried to make a suggestion, and it's clear it went to hell it would have been best if I hadn't.


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Chesh wrote:Mhmm. You mean things like:

- Supporting the growth of small businesses
- Removing a lot of the classism and putting a lot of power in the hands of the people who were being abused by the "nobility"
- Being responsible for most of the industrial growth that modernized Germany and caught the nation up to the countries that got a jumpstart on the industrial revolution throughout Europe
- Preventing Germany from becoming a communist nation, which would have completely shattered the economy and eventually lead to a peasant revolt
- Supporting scientific research, such as the development of the X-Ray machine, along with many other HUGE developments in the fields of medicine and engineering
- Implemented sweeping social reforms that made life better for the poor

Etc...

Don't mistake the party with the army. Sure, they (the party) were xenophobic aryans that were anti-capitalist, anti-semitic, anti-a lot of things, but they did a lot of good for the country. Then Hitler wrecked it all by being a charismatic embodiment of pure evil that took over the country just when the nationalist feelings were running the highest, thanks to the nazi party instilling a sense of national pride in "just being German" after being soundly defeated during WWI.

You also have to view the issue in the context of the times.

Germany had, thanks to Kaiser WIlhelm II removing Otto von Bismarck from the office of Chancellor, broken every treaty it ever participated in that stabilized Europe after the formation of the country a quarter-century prior to WWI (not exactly "broken" in the sense that hostilities broke out, but rather just let the treaties lapse due to non-interest and a certain will to power on Wilhelm II's part). That lead directly to WWI, then Germany got their asses handed to them by nations that were still harboring resentment over how Bismarck's politicking and tactical brilliance carved the country of Germany out of a large part of Austria and France.

That's when the nazi party grew. Partly out of resentment (it always sucks to lose a war)...

To be continued, I have to run for a bit. But we can just let it stand at "I've done my fething research" if you'd rather.

Just to let you know, trying to convince Germans, or anyone for that matter, that Hitler "did stuff for his country" is a fool's errand. I wouldn't waste long posts on it if I were you. I've been reading and rereading books on the end of the war, and one of the most constantly mentioned themes is the fact that the Germans were victimized by the Nazis, especially toward the end of the war. Please be aware that you are being extremely insensitive by making that claim. I think pretty much anyone in Europe would agree. Let's not forget the 240,000 Americans who also ended up dying needlessly to put a stop to the Nazis.

One of the things I didn't mention before was how the Nazi military police rounded up all men between ages 16 to 60, and forced them to fight, without training or effective weapons, against the Russians in near suicidal battles. How exactly is that "doing a service?"

Wow...just wow...

The Nazi's did good things for the people? Really? Wow...yes life did become better in Germany after the imminent economic collapse caused by the burden of the Treaty of Versailles had been lifted. The people were given their pride back in themselves and their nation, but it was all done as a prelude and a process toward declaring war on Germany's enemies and neighbors and enacting those aspects of Hitler's plans even worse than war. The good means do not excuse the evil ends anymore than evil means make good ends acceptable.

I think this thread is dead...it started talking about nazi symbolism, but now that someone has said the Nazis did good things I think that trumps all...

Skriker





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Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference.

And being considered an automatic Nazi reference in the US means what exactly? Someone could wear that on a shirt and while many will think the wearer is a tool, it is perfectly legal unless they try to use it to intimidate people going into a synagogue or something. Legally in the US it is not the symbol that is the problem, but what use it is put towards. Have it as a tattoo and you are a racist jack hole, but that is your choice and it is your right. Spray paint it on a synagogue or the front door of a jewish family's home and it is a hate crime.

Skriker