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TedNugent wrote:Jesus Christ.

Wasn't he Nazarean ? Certainly not German.

He was Jewish, and thus hated by the ostensibly Christian Adolf. Which is kind of ironic, if you think about it.

Well, the Nazareans tried to toss him off a cliff, so I think it's more like how George Handel was an.... Englander.

Jewish is a religion not a nationality.

When did JC get chucked off a cliff?

Jewish is a nationality. Judaism is the religion.

dude i think this thread can be summed up very simply

Kümmere dich um deine eigenen Angelegenheiten (mind your own buisness)

if i butchered the german please forgive me. I only get to practice with my brother.

Simply put if its not offensive let them do what they want.

Magpie wrote:When did JC get chucked off a cliff?

At the end of Tekken, after Kazuya won the King of Iron Fist tournament.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

captain collius wrote:dude i think this thread can be summed up very simply

Kümmere dich um deine eigenen Angelegenheiten (mind your own buisness)

if i butchered the german please forgive me. I only get to practice with my brother.

Simply put if its not offensive let them do what they want.

Don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you. I'm not trying to invade anyone's hobby, just trying to give advice. My word is not absolute, and I don't pretend it to be.

I believe a nation is required for a nationality and that the word you're looking for is "ethnicity".

Also, I believe that what we can bring with us from this thread is that when butchering a language you better do it intentionally with regularity and severity or comically - or risk embarrassing situations, for you and/or your would be critic.

I.e. if you do it intentionally most would consider it OK, but if you throw it around as a badge of your ignorance... well...

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

The Jews are a nation, even if they don't have a "homeland" that's uncontested.

Hell, I had a big long post typed up, but Wikipedia explains it better than I can:

Wikipedia wrote:A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, and/or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.[2][3] In international relations, nation can refer to a country or sovereign state.[1] The word nation can more specifically refer to people of North American Indians, such as the Cherokee Nation that prefer this term over the contested term tribe.

The Jewish people are all of the above: an ethnicity, a nation, and a religion.

I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

Hunterindarkness wrote: I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

Hunterindarkness fabricates a heroic sentimental. I am agreement shoelace.

Hunterindarkness wrote: I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

You're very limited in how you can mess it up. Knowing it as a native language makes it hard, and the nature of the language makes it harder. For one thing, there is only "the" and no other forms of it, meaning that whatever case or (in very rare cases) gender you have, "the" is always the same.

I have no problem with people using made up words that sound German. GW uses it's own pseudo-latin in place of High Gothic for the game, why can't we use our own pseudo languages?

Prime example Adeptus Astartes isn't actually latin, just sounds like latin, isn't hard to pronounce and sounds like it might mean space marine.

As long as I am not speaking to Germans and trying to hold a conversation (Unlike my poor Spanish my wife has forbidden me from trying to use) I really do not see an issue.
I use German models, not that I am using German words but if I do, eh so what? who is to say German is the same in 40k anyhow, its not like English is the same it was in the 15 or 1600's anyhow. Things change and in the end its a hobby and I am not a linguist.

Does it really mater if its, German, psudo-german or mangled German if you and the guys you play with are not German speakers?


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Hunterindarkness wrote:As long as I am not speaking to Germans and trying to hold a conversation (Unlike my poor Spanish my wife has forbidden me from trying to use) I really do not see an issue.I use German models, not that I am using German words but if I do, eh so what? who is to say German is the same in 40k anyhow, its not like English is the same it was in the 15 or 1600's anyhow. Things change and in the end its a hobby and I am not a linguist.

Does it really mater if its, German, psudo-german or mangled German if you and the guys you play with are not German speakers?

CrashCanuck wrote:I have no problem with people using made up words that sound German. GW uses it's own pseudo-latin in place of High Gothic for the game, why can't we use our own pseudo languages?

Prime example Adeptus Astartes isn't actually latin, just sounds like latin, isn't hard to pronounce and sounds like it might mean space marine.

YES!

This is what I support!


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Hunterindarkness wrote:As long as I am not speaking to Germans and trying to hold a conversation (Unlike my poor Spanish my wife has forbidden me from trying to use) I really do not see an issue.
I use German models, not that I am using German words but if I do, eh so what? who is to say German is the same in 40k anyhow, its not like English is the same it was in the 15 or 1600's anyhow. Things change and in the end its a hobby and I am not a linguist.

Does it really mater if its, German, psudo-german or mangled German if you and the guys you play with are not German speakers?

I guess in that case it doesn't but cut and paste dictionary direct translations stand out to anyone from the most basic level German class. It's probably really not a big deal. You guys seem to think I'm making a way bigger deal about this than I am.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
This is the thought process I see happening. If anyone else has a background in social psychology, please add your thoughts.

I play a Wehrmacht army
The Wehrmacht is bad
I am bad
I am not bad
How is it that I am not bad
The Wehrmacht must not be bad

I'm also not going to generalize and say that everyone does this, and I am sure that there are people who have an understanding of the Wehrmacht who play such armies, and who do not worry about what it says about themselves. Maybe my concern is false, but it's just something I see as potential.

I doubt you need a background in social psychology to add thoughts to your post.

As its pretty way off, because those games, especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.
Plus no army itself is bad, its always the members of it and you shouldn't claim such high horse of "studies" if all you got as possible thought process is your theory of people completly identifiying themselves with the army they play.
They don't usually.
There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

Hunterindarkness wrote: I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

Not special, but a international forum like dakka could provide help if you are interested to have something corrected.
Feel free to butcher , tough.

1hadhq wrote:

Feel free to butcher , tough.

I always do, it is far less butchered when typing as it is kinda hard to totally mangle pronunciation while typing, possible but harder to do. But it is a talent I seem to have.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

You just quoted yourself and answered like it was somebody else, is there more than one person controlling the Ehrenstein user?

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

Again, you have a wiki that is clearly taking inspiration from WW2 germans...

1hadhq wrote:
especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.

There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

I understand that someone has to play "that army" in historical games. I have no problem with it. 40k is not not a historical game.

And it doesn't bother me. The only thing that "bothers" me is seeing someone doing something potentially self sabotaging, like playing a Nazi army is a game of the 41st millennium. If the people at the hobby store think it's alright, than by all means, do it. I'm just giving advice for how to avoid socially sabotaging yourself to people who might need it.


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Illumini wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

You just quoted yourself and answered like it was somebody else, is there more than one person controlling the Ehrenstein user?

That was a glitch in the forum. Someone else posted that. Sorry.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

Again, you have a wiki that is clearly taking inspiration from WW2 germans...

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.

There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

I understand that someone has to play "that army" in historical games. I have no problem with it. 40k is not not a historical game.

And it doesn't bother me. The only thing that "bothers" me is seeing someone doing something potentially self sabotaging, like playing a Nazi army is a game of the 41st millennium. If the people at the hobby store think it's alright, than by all means, do it. I'm just giving advice for how to avoid socially sabotaging yourself to people who might need it.

So, all i want to know is, can i play zhe 8. Imperial Ausrotterregiment under Colonel Kriegsfreude from the planet Blitzkrieg?

Actually Ludwig/Ludvig is Germanic for Louis. Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, heck even Icelandic are Germanic languages. I'm a bit skeptical though about a guy with little experience with the German language making fluff about a Germanic Sektor though.

KingDeath wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.

There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

I understand that someone has to play "that army" in historical games. I have no problem with it. 40k is not not a historical game.

And it doesn't bother me. The only thing that "bothers" me is seeing someone doing something potentially self sabotaging, like playing a Nazi army is a game of the 41st millennium. If the people at the hobby store think it's alright, than by all means, do it. I'm just giving advice for how to avoid socially sabotaging yourself to people who might need it.

So, all i want to know is, can i play zhe 8. Imperial Ausrotterregiment under Colonel Kriegsfreude from the planet Blitzkrieg?

Why are you asking me? I don't decide these things.

Being from the small german town of Dachau (yes its a town) and moving to amercia when I was alot young it took time to learn english so we dealt with this. The fact of the matter is that some people think of germany as nazis even in the year 2012 as well as look at the nazis in awe at the military stature that they displayed in the war. You just have to know that you will see this alot. I painting "iron within iron without" in latin on my iron warriors. Just get used to misspelling my still do with english. If they think you are a nazi for using german just call them a bigot or redneck :p I recommend the first of the two.


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captain collius wrote:dude i think this thread can be summed up very simply

Kümmere dich um deine eigenen Angelegenheiten (mind your own buisness)

if i butchered the german please forgive me. I only get to practice with my brother.

Simply put if its not offensive let them do what they want.

Not bad t all how long have you been learning? Cn you pronounce out loud correctly is the big question.

I would personally prefer the Sturmkrieg Sektor to focus on Germany anno 1918, not anything else. Then again I'm quite critical of the whole shablang as of now, but that has been made clear to the author.

If I were to decide the Sektor should use Germanized English. Like Jawohl, heil, jah, nein, aufweiderstien and such. Too much and you need a bloody dictionary.

I do love when people get on their high horse over silly things. It is one thing to create a 40k army covered in swastikas that will offend plenty of people are are sensitive to things like that. It is completely different to create a 40k army using German WWII vehicles and colorings with swastikas. For another thing people are REALLY offended by any kind of WWII related imagery really won't care if the game is "historical" or not if they swastikas represented on the minis. Many in the world are completely offended by seeing a swastika represented anywhere for whatever purpose. Even though the basic symbol has been around for millennia, the nazis "broke" it.

As for the german language issues you are having, why do you care what other people put on their minis? Who cares if they are massacreing a language that is not their own to put some cool looking/sounding slogans on their banners and the like. Get over it and you'll be happier. I actually know Japanese and the Kanji alphabet, but I am not really going out of my way for grammatical correctness on a new 40k rengades army I am building that uses a bunch of WWII Japanese and US vehicles/tanks and has them marked in chaos symbols and various Kanji symbols. If it looks cool I use it whether the grammar is "correct" or not.

Those things said my first 40k Imperial Guard army had a german Wermacht theme to it. The troops were painted in a similar grey/green color with histori colors used on belts, straps and accutrements. The armored vehicles were all 1/35 scale german model kits. PZIII and IV for Leman Russ tanks, PZIIs and pZ38ts for use as chimera, a hornisse SP '88 for a basilisk, a converted braumbar as a Griffon, and even a StuG III converted to be a hellhound. The army was well painted and historically done. I've long been an amateur WWII historian and had modeled WWII tanks, vehicles and troops in 1/35 scale for most of my life. This was a way for me to combine two parts of my hobby since the 1/35 scale armor kits are just a much bigger joy to build and much more highly detailed than GW vehicle kits are. No one got offended by my army or said anything negative about it ever. I eventually sold it off in pieces to raise cash to build a different army.

My current chaos renegades army is using WWII Japanese and US tank and vehicle kits in 1/35 as the basis for the armored part of the force. Should I panic about using those too, as someone might be offended by then or is it only "german" themed armies that are negative and bad?

Yes covering your army in swastikas is going to bother some people, but that doesn't mean we all need a lecture in using a "german theme" in our armies outside of historical games...

Nurgle wrote:Being from the small german town of Dachau (yes its a town) and moving to amercia when I was alot young it took time to learn english so we dealt with this. The fact of the matter is that some people think of germany as nazis even in the year 2012 as well as look at the nazis in awe at the military stature that they displayed in the war. You just have to know that you will see this alot. I painting "iron within iron without" in latin on my iron warriors. Just get used to misspelling my still do with english. If they think you are a nazi for using german just call them a bigot or redneck :p I recommend the first of the two.

I agree. I've got **** from people who ignorantly say "dehr... that looks leik a Nazi armee... dehr!" It's clear that those people haven't even bothered to read it, so yeah, it would be accurate for me to call them bigoted and prejudiced, but I tend to step down from counter trolling and just ignore it.

I feel that German armies are fine, but deliberately creating a Nazi themed army is in poor taste. I will state that I can't stop anyone, and I won't even try to stop anyone. If your gaming community thinks that's ok, than you have nothing to worry about.


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Beaviz81 wrote:I would personally prefer the Sturmkrieg Sektor to focus on Germany anno 1918, not anything else. Then again I'm quite critical of the whole shablang as of now, but that has been made clear to the author.

If I were to decide the Sektor should use Germanized English. Like Jawohl, heil, jah, nein, aufweiderstien and such. Too much and you need a bloody dictionary.

I intend for the WWI German Empire theme to be predominant. However, and this is on the advice of a lot of other people, I'm going to have more diverse sub themes with many different sub themes on individual words to keep things interesting, and to give people an incentive to read about every world.

To the OP.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Never, ever, in the existence of ever, shall I never, ever positively never not use German themed stuff in 40k.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I would only say that it does that in the sense that you get a lot of kiddies who think it's cool to play on the Nazi team, but Call of Duty, especially World at War, I think does a decent job of showing the brutality of the Germans.

I've studied psychology, and the thing I worry about with people who play as the Wehrmacht who also don't have a good historical understanding of them is the self justification that they go through. Basically, we need to feel good about ourselves, and we need to feel that we are good and in the right. When something challenges that, we end up with cognative dissonance. To restore our "good feeling" about ourselves, we must justify why we are in the right. It's much easier to adapt our reality than it is to admit we are in the wrong, or to adapt our schema.

So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

This is the thought process I see happening. If anyone else has a background in social psychology, please add your thoughts.

I play a Wehrmacht army
The Wehrmacht is bad
I am bad
I am not bad
How is it that I am not bad
The Wehrmacht must not be bad

I'm also not going to generalize and say that everyone does this, and I am sure that there are people who have an understanding of the Wehrmacht who play such armies, and who do not worry about what it says about themselves. Maybe my concern is false, but it's just something I see as potential.

The simple fact is that there are *NO* good guys in war. ALL sides do horrible things in the name of nationalistic furvor, orders or just plain trying to survive the war. Your crazy psychology is pretty off base too. If a person is establishing their worth as a human being on an army of little metal and plastic miniatures they have more significant problems that trying to justify that the wermacht were a bunch of nice guys.

The real thought process of a rational person:
I play a Wermacht army
It is a game
I am not a representative of the wermacht
It is a game.
Let's play!

Your psychology is pretty over dramatized and as I said would more likely come from someone who has some real mental issues that ultimately have nothing to do with their playing of a wermacht army in the first place. Yes *some* people play and paint their forces in wermacht or SS colors because they are deluded and misguided and think they are awesome. Most, though, do it to bring an historical aspect into their fantasy gaming and I see it no different than painting up your marines in offwhite with red crusader crosses and markings all over them. Not everyone is doing it and it could just look really cool when all completely and painted.

Skriker