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I know I posted this question a long while ago, but I feel like I didn't get much of an answer. The whole thread kind of degenerated into people talking about ridiculous units.

So here's the situation: my Space Wolves army has a sort of centerpiece of four Wolf Lords on Thunderwolf Mounts, all decked out in wargear to be a unit of absolute doom (that very few people have managed to kill so far). However, the issue has come up twice now that I might be running it illegally - I typically run them together in a single unit of 4 models, and the codex explicitly states that no model on a Thunderwolf Mount may join anything but Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves.

There's a note in the FAQ on rending and special weapons that seems to imply that TWC = TWM, but I'm not totally convinced. Can anyone give me a straight answer? Can I run four Thunderwolf Lords together as one unit, or do I need a sort of "glue" unit to stick them together (such as a unit of Fenries or TWC)? And if I do need that "glue," what happens if all the glue runs out? Do they just break off into four separate units immediately?

IC's on Thunderwolves should be able to join other IC's on Thunderwolves.

Clearly they should. But Locclo is asking a RAW question because a model on a Thunderwolf Mount "may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves units." A Wolf Lord is a Wolf Lord unit.

There are other rules where the intent is absolutely clear but some will still insist on playing by the RAW (rage.) So I suppose someone could be a total jerk and object to two ICs mounted on Thunderwolves joining.

RAW you cannot. I stopped playing a dual Thunderlord list because of the rule as written.

So if 2 Wolf Lords are attached to a TWC unit, and all the TWC models are killed, the 2 Wolf Lords would not be able to be attached together?

So just add in 5 wolves or 1 TWC model and you can join the 4 lords to that unit then they can stay together the rest of the game.

If the TWC or wolves die and you separate the IC's they could not join back together 9RAW)

I don't agree with either case above at all.

Once you have one Thunderlord joined to a unit of TWC or Fenrisian wolves, it is not longer only TWC or Fenrisian Wolves and thus any additional Thunderlords are prohibited from joining due to being mounted on thunderwolf mounts.

It is still a unit of TWC, it just has an IC attached.

Same goes for the wolves.

DeathReaper wrote:It is still a unit of TWC, it just has an IC attached.

Same goes for the wolves.

This is exactly right. Nothing in the rules indicates that a unit is considered "something else" simply by joining an IC to it.

Brother Ramses wrote:I don't agree with either case above at all.

Once you have one Thunderlord joined to a unit of TWC or Fenrisian wolves, it is not longer only TWC or Fenrisian Wolves and thus any additional Thunderlords are prohibited from joining due to being mounted on thunderwolf mounts.

No. The squad does not become something else because an ic has attached to it. If you want to assert that it does please cite relevant rules, faqs, and/or precedent.

Is it a unit of TWC or is it a unit of TWC AND a wolf lord on a thunderwolf mount? Now, attach an additional wolf lord to the unit without violating the rule for TWM only be able to join units of TWC or Fenrisian wolves.

Check the unit composition of a TWC unit and a Fenrisian wolves unit. Is wolf lord on a TWM in either of those compositions?

By that line of reasoning a unit of Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached no longer score, because there is nothing in the Troops section called "Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached."

If you join four TWL to a single TWC pack, there should be no problem until the TWC is killed.

End of Line

Saldiven wrote:By that line of reasoning a unit of Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached no longer score, because there is nothing in the Troops section called "Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached."

This isn't about requirements for scoring units, this about the restrictions listed for units that a TWM can join. Even if you disregard the combined unit, how exactly do you justify an additional TWM joining the TWC without also joining the existing TWM which as pointed out violates the rules for which units a TWM can join.

BR, hypothetical situation for you.
Hive Tyrant is joined to a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyranid Prime (IC) joins the squad.
Tyrant Guard are wiped out.
You now have an IC attached to a unit that only ever consists of 1 model.

I see this as a similar situation.

Brother Ramses wrote:Is it a unit of TWC or is it a unit of TWC AND a wolf lord on a thunderwolf mount?

It's both. There is nothing in the TWM rules that say the joined unit cannot have an IC joined to it when the character on TWM joins. The only restriction is that the unit being joined by the mounted character be either TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. If that restriction is satisfied then the character may join.

Happyjew wrote:BR, hypothetical situation for you.
Hive Tyrant is joined to a unit of Tyrant Guard.
Tyranid Prime (IC) joins the squad.
Tyrant Guard are wiped out.
You now have an IC attached to a unit that only ever consists of 1 model.

I see this as a similar situation.

The bolded section is debatable. Some claim that since a Tyrant can join guard, it is not a unit that can only ever consist of one model.

IOW - bad example to use.

Lordhat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Is it a unit of TWC or is it a unit of TWC AND a wolf lord on a thunderwolf mount?

It's both. There is nothing in the TWM rules that say the joined unit cannot have an IC joined to it when the character on TWM joins. The only restriction is that the unit being joined by the mounted character be either TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. If that restriction is satisfied then the character may join.

And there is no rule about an IC being part of the unit, there is a rule however if what kind of units a TWM can join. Other TWM is is not part of that restricted list. So even if you say it is both, you are allowed to join the TWC, but not allowed to join the TWM.

Good thing you're not Joining the other character, you're joining the TWC unit. Just because there's another mounted character in the unit is irrelevant.

If you look at it from a fluff perspective, SW lords are fiercely individual and probably wouldn't run around.as.an almighty hero deathstar.

Deadshot wrote:If you look at it from a fluff perspective, SW lords are fiercely individual and probably wouldn't run around.as.an almighty hero deathstar.

I guess it is a good thing that Fluff /= Rules.

But all I am saying is it only takes 1 Demolisher Cannon to wipe that Herostar from the board. Dkn't put them all tjeir in the first placr.

If you give them 2 wolves and Stormshields you would need them clumped up real tight and the SW player would need to get very unlucky with rolls to kill all 4 with a Demo Cannon.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Saldiven wrote:By that line of reasoning a unit of Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached no longer score, because there is nothing in the Troops section called "Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached."

This isn't about requirements for scoring units, this about the restrictions listed for units that a TWM can join. Even if you disregard the combined unit, how exactly do you justify an additional TWM joining the TWC without also joining the existing TWM which as pointed out violates the rules for which units a TWM can join.

Um, because that doesn't matter.

There is no unit called "Thunder Wolf Cavalry with a Thunderwolf Mounted Lord in it."

You could have two dozen Lords on Thunder Wolves jointed to a TWC unit, and that doesn't change the fact that it is still a TWC unit. The rule does not say that the Lord in question may join a TWC unit unless there's already a Lord joined to that unit.

Saldiven wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Saldiven wrote:By that line of reasoning a unit of Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached no longer score, because there is nothing in the Troops section called "Tactical Marines with a Librarian attached."

This isn't about requirements for scoring units, this about the restrictions listed for units that a TWM can join. Even if you disregard the combined unit, how exactly do you justify an additional TWM joining the TWC without also joining the existing TWM which as pointed out violates the rules for which units a TWM can join.

Um, because that doesn't matter.

There is no unit called "Thunder Wolf Cavalry with a Thunderwolf Mounted Lord in it."

You could have two dozen Lords on Thunder Wolves jointed to a TWC unit, and that doesn't change the fact that it is still a TWC unit. The rule does not say that the Lord in question may join a TWC unit unless there's already a Lord joined to that unit.

And you continue to spout fail.

A unit of TWC with an attached wolf lord on a TWM is not just a unit of TWC. A TWM is ONLy allowed to join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian wolves. Zero permission is given to join anything more then those units.

Check the unit composition for TWC. Check the unit composition for Fenrisian wolves. Under either does it include a wolf lord on a TWM? No. You can only join a TWM to a unit of TWC or a unit of Fenrisian wolves, said units being defined by their unit composition in the codex.

Seriously, you would have a better argument with the FAQ implying the whole Fangir/Canis/Rending issue. On your current angle, you are just either lying to yourself or trying to cheat.

Brother Ramses wrote: On your current angle, you are just either lying to yourself or trying to cheat.

Either that, or you're the only one who can read the invisible print that GW used to restrict Characters mounted on T.wolves from joining units that already have another character joined to them. I see no language synonymous to "Consisting entirely of..." or These units may not contain....". I will concede that trying to join a unit of TWC containing an infantry character would seem to be against the spirit, if not the letter of the rule. However I see no language, RAI or RAW, in the rule that precludes more than one IC on TWM joining the same TWC or Fenrisian Wolf unit.

Lordhat wrote:Good thing you're not Joining the other character, you're joining the TWC unit. Just because there's another mounted character in the unit is irrelevant.

This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this:

Lordhat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote: On your current angle, you are just either lying to yourself or trying to cheat.

Either that, or you're the only one who can read the invisible print that GW used to restrict Characters mounted on T.wolves from joining units that already have another character joined to them. I see no language synonymous to "Consisting entirely of..." or These units may not contain....". I will concede that trying to join a unit of TWC containing an infantry character would seem to be against the spirit, if not the letter of the rule. However I see no language, RAI or RAW, in the rule that precludes more than one IC on TWM joining the same TWC or Fenrisian Wolf unit.

It has absolutely nothing to do with joining another IC, it is the fact that the TWM entry specifically prohibits any other unit, besides TWC or Fenrisian wolves. Is an IC on a TWM either TWC or Fenrisian wolves? Is an IC on a TWM listed as part of the unit composition for either TWC or Fenrisian wolves?

Go ahead and try and get around either of those questions asking for a rule that doesn't say you can't so you can. However, that is not how the rules are written.

Brother Ramses wrote:It has absolutely nothing to do with joining another IC, it is the fact that the TWM entry specifically prohibits any other unit, besides TWC or Fenrisian wolves. Is an IC on a TWM either TWC or Fenrisian wolves? Is an IC on a TWM listed as part of the unit composition for either TWC or Fenrisian wolves?

Go ahead and try and get around either of those questions asking for a rule that doesn't say you can't so you can. However, that is not how the rules are written.

I still see no relevant rules arguments that by simply having an IC join a unit, it changes the unit. What comprises a unit in the rules is very loose. I don't see how trying to apply the tmount rules to actually change the definition of what a unit is, is applicable here.

It's still a unit of tcav. Simply joining an IC to it doesn't change that 'game state'. If the rules stated that a tmounted IC can join a unit of models only containing tcav or fen wolves, then this would be applicable.

BR, there's another problem with your logic.
You have for example, a TWC unit with a Lord on a TWM attached.
I shoot them up, you roll poorly, and alas the Wolf Lord is killed.
According to your logic since the unit I shot was TWC with Wolf Lord on a TWM, I would not be able to assault the unit, since the unit is now just a TWC unit.