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I think the rules are clear that TW Lords can only join units of TWC and fenrisian wolves. What else may be joined to that unit is up to the owning player, another 3 TW Lords a rune preist or something else that prevents you charging 12".

I think it's clear that as many IC's as you want can join a unit, I don't have a rulebook to hand but I assume an IC can't join an IC to form a unit.

When you get your hands on a rulebook re-read about IC, it clearly states that IC's can join other IC's.

They can - explicitly mentioned in the rules.

Well that is interesting, I don't run anything that would ever be something I'd try but I have an idea for a funny as hell unit to field next time I use my BA army.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well that is interesting, I don't run anything that would ever be something I'd try but I have an idea for a funny as hell unit to field next time I use my BA army.

Yea you could have 6 Sang Priests, 1 Chaplain, and 2 Librarians all in the same unit, and the opponent would have to attack each model separately.

I was thinking more Dante, Astorath, Lemartes and 2 grunt DC with a priest to buff the rest for a fun game but your death star sounds broken and I'd like to try it.

As a fighting beast, Dante sucks. He is better for harassment, using his deathmask to weaken an eny CC beast like Draigo or Lysander. He is also best paired with The Sanguinor, and.pick the same.target. Use the Avenging Angel to take out a WS 6, W3, A3, Int 5 Draigo, rerolling hits and wounds, is no laughing matter. For him.


If you want a real CC deathstar, try Astorath, Lemartes, a Libby with Might of Heroes (+D3 attacks to unit I believe) and Shield of Sanguinius, along with a bunch of PW/Fist/Hammer and JP Death Company, and use a bunch of Priests to support the VV running up behind.

Dante is decent in CC but he is best used to drop hot melta death into the enemy. How much fun would you have with 5 melta weapons coming your way?

Edit: Forgot mephiston is a loner for good.

Mephiston can't have friends. He's not an IC.

I forgot that.

Dante is also good for suicding tanks. Either alone or with a Meltagun toting Assault Squad with Infernus Pistol Sgt.Personally I prefer him alone. He can guarentee to be in range of the extra dice, but at that range you might end up with a Marine within 1" of an enemy, in which case its a mishap. Also, DoA can get an Assault Squad close enough to Melta though and with less risk.

imweasel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:It has absolutely nothing to do with joining another IC, it is the fact that the TWM entry specifically prohibits any other unit, besides TWC or Fenrisian wolves. Is an IC on a TWM either TWC or Fenrisian wolves? Is an IC on a TWM listed as part of the unit composition for either TWC or Fenrisian wolves?

Go ahead and try and get around either of those questions asking for a rule that doesn't say you can't so you can. However, that is not how the rules are written.

I still see no relevant rules arguments that by simply having an IC join a unit, it changes the unit. What comprises a unit in the rules is very loose. I don't see how trying to apply the tmount rules to actually change the definition of what a unit is, is applicable here.

It's still a unit of tcav. Simply joining an IC to it doesn't change that 'game state'. If the rules stated that a tmounted IC can join a unit of models only containing tcav or fen wolves, then this would be applicable.

Open up the SW codex and read the unit composition for TWC and/or Fenrisian wolves. That is your relevant rules argument.

It is impossible to say that a unit of 5 TWC is the same unit as a unit of TWC with an attached IC on a TWM. Willingly just ignoring that an IC on a TWM is part of the unit, and trying to say that another IC on the TWM is only joining the TWC element of the combined unit is ludicrous. That doesn't even stand up under the rules for unit coherency or IC joining a unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:It is impossible to say that a unit of 5 TWC is the same unit as a unit of TWC with an attached IC on a TWM.

Please show me in the tmount rule where it states that you can only join a unit of tcav that is only comprised of tcav models. It doesn't say that. It says it can join a tcav unit. Are you honestly saying that it's no longer a tcav unit? Really?

Then what do you call a troop GH unit that is joined by an IC? No longer a troop unit or a GH unit? Really?

imweasel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:It is impossible to say that a unit of 5 TWC is the same unit as a unit of TWC with an attached IC on a TWM.

Please show me in the tmount rule where it states that you can only join a unit of tcav that is only comprised of tcav models. It doesn't say that. It says it can join a tcav unit. Are you honestly saying that it's no longer a tcav unit? Really?

Then what do you call a troop GH unit that is joined by an IC? No longer a troop unit or a GH unit? Really?

This sums it up pretty decisively. A unit does not cease being the unit it was prior because it is joined by an IC, that is simply not the case. BA assault squads remain assault squads when joined by a sang priest, a terminator squad remains a terminator squad when joined by Vulkan or Lysander. There is absolutely no rules basis for what you are attempting to assert. The twc are twc and will always be twc, until they are removed from play.

As defined by the codex,

Thunderwolf Cavalry Unit Composition:

1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry

Fenrisian Wolf Pack

5-15 Fenrisian Wolves.

Incorporating the above into the Thunderwolf Mountentry:

"However, he may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry(1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry) or Fenrisian Wolves(5-15 Fenrisian Wolves) - anything else is asking for trouble!"

At not time am I saying that an IC on a TWM joining a TWC unit makes them NOT TWC. They are however a TWC unit with an IC on a TWM. They are no longer eligible to be joined by an IC on a TWM, because they are now composed of something different then is eligible to be joined by an IC on a TWM.

Now, some of you have said the second IC on a TWM is joining the "unit" as if that somehow suddenly makes the existing IC on a TWM invisible or some crap, yet even if you try to break it down like that you still fail due to the rules for an IC joining a unit.

How do you join an IC on a TWM to a unit of TWC with an existing IC on a TWM? As soon as you move into coherency and join the TWC unit, you are by virtue also moving into coherency and joining the existing IC on a TWM, which you are specifically prohibited from doing per the RAW of the TWM rule.

So, instead of making outrageously stupid analogies, explain how you can join an IC on a TWM to a TWC unit with an existing IC on a TWM, WITHOUT also joining said existing IC on a TWM. I would also ask you to point out where yiu are given permission to ignore the existing IC on a TWM?

Remember, "the rules don't say I can't, so I can" is not a valid argument since the rule in question actually restricts you specifically to what units you can join.

If you deploy all 4 IC's in coherency with the TWC unit, they will all simultaneously join the TWC unit.

Problem Solved.

DeathReaper wrote:If you deploy all 4 IC's in coherency with the TWC unit, they will all simultaneously join the TWC unit.

Problem Solved.

And when you move said unit on your first turn, you would have to move them so will not be in coherency at the end of your movement phase. Good job on a useless loophole.

Brother Ramses wrote:As defined by the codex,

Thunderwolf Cavalry Unit Composition:

1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry

Fenrisian Wolf Pack

5-15 Fenrisian Wolves.

Incorporating the above into the Thunderwolf Mountentry:

"However, he may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry(1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry) or Fenrisian Wolves(5-15 Fenrisian Wolves) - anything else is asking for trouble!"

At not time am I saying that an IC on a TWM joining a TWC unit makes them NOT TWC. They are however a TWC unit with an IC on a TWM. They are no longer eligible to be joined by an IC on a TWM, because they are now composed of something different then is eligible to be joined by an IC on a TWM.

Now, some of you have said the second IC on a TWM is joining the "unit" as if that somehow suddenly makes the existing IC on a TWM invisible or some crap, yet even if you try to break it down like that you still fail due to the rules for an IC joining a unit.

How do you join an IC on a TWM to a unit of TWC with an existing IC on a TWM? As soon as you move into coherency and join the TWC unit, you are by virtue also moving into coherency and joining the existing IC on a TWM, which you are specifically prohibited from doing per the RAW of the TWM rule.

So, instead of making outrageously stupid analogies, explain how you can join an IC on a TWM to a TWC unit with an existing IC on a TWM, WITHOUT also joining said existing IC on a TWM.

Remember, "the rules don't say I can't, so I can" is not a valid argument since the rule in question actually restricts you specifically to what units you can join.

Ok. It's hard to debate someone that ignores his own inconsistencies. First you state that it is a twc unit, then turn around and state that it's not really just a twc unit, but a twc unit that has an IC joined to it. So which one is it? Is it a tcav unit or is it a different 'unit' i.e. a tcav unit with an IC joined. You don't get it both ways.

Please show me in the rules where it states that an IC mounted on a tw mount can only join a unit that is comprised ONLY of a unit composed of tcav models?

The rule doesn't say that. The rule states that it may join a tcav unit, not a unit only comprised of tcav models. You are actually using this rule to define what a unit is. That's a major reach.

It states that I may join a tcav unit. Nothing you have stated has changed the fact that it is a tcav unit. I have the permission I need to join the unit.

imweasel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:As defined by the codex,

Thunderwolf Cavalry Unit Composition:

1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry

Fenrisian Wolf Pack

5-15 Fenrisian Wolves.

Incorporating the above into the Thunderwolf Mountentry:

"However, he may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry(1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry) or Fenrisian Wolves(5-15 Fenrisian Wolves) - anything else is asking for trouble!"

At not time am I saying that an IC on a TWM joining a TWC unit makes them NOT TWC. They are however a TWC unit with an IC on a TWM. They are no longer eligible to be joined by an IC on a TWM, because they are now composed of something different then is eligible to be joined by an IC on a TWM.

Now, some of you have said the second IC on a TWM is joining the "unit" as if that somehow suddenly makes the existing IC on a TWM invisible or some crap, yet even if you try to break it down like that you still fail due to the rules for an IC joining a unit.

How do you join an IC on a TWM to a unit of TWC with an existing IC on a TWM? As soon as you move into coherency and join the TWC unit, you are by virtue also moving into coherency and joining the existing IC on a TWM, which you are specifically prohibited from doing per the RAW of the TWM rule.

So, instead of making outrageously stupid analogies, explain how you can join an IC on a TWM to a TWC unit with an existing IC on a TWM, WITHOUT also joining said existing IC on a TWM.

Remember, "the rules don't say I can't, so I can" is not a valid argument since the rule in question actually restricts you specifically to what units you can join.

Ok. It's hard to debate someone that ignores his own inconsistencies. First you state that it is a twc unit, then turn around and state that it's not really just a twc unit, but a twc unit that has an IC joined to it. So which one is it? Is it a tcav unit or is it a different 'unit' i.e. a tcav unit with an IC joined. You don't get it both ways.

Please show me in the rules where it states that an IC mounted on a tw mount can only join a unit that is comprised ONLY of a unit composed of tcav models?

The rule doesn't say that. The rule states that it may join a tcav unit, not a unit only comprised of tcav models. You are actually using this rule to define what a unit is. That's a major reach.

It states that I may join a tcav unit. Nothing you have stated has changed the fact that it is a tcav unit. I have the permission I need to join the unit.

Do you own a SW codex? If you don't, you can see where I listed the unit composition for a TWC unit above. When you are told a TWM can only join a TWC unit, a TWC unit is comprised of what the codex defines as a TWC unit. Does that definition include an IC on a TWM? So you keep saying that it does not say ONLY a unit of TWC, but by virtue of the very definition of a TWC unit, it does not include an IC on a TWM.

And I am not talking out of both sides of my mouth. A TWC unit with a TWM is no longer the defined unit, per the RAW of the TWM entry, as an eligible unit.

So again, where is your permission to join a TWM to a unit of TWC without also joining the existing TWM joined to that unit? Where is your permission to suddenly make a TWM invisible?

So now you admit that an IC joining a unit, by your count, is no longer a twc 'defined' unit.

So following that logic, an IC joining any unit no longer makes that unit what it was 'defined'.

This is not limited by the fact of the 'raw' of the twm entry.

So, just to follow your new definition of a unit, when an IC joins a unit, whether it's on a twm or not, the unit is no longer the unit as 'defined' in the codex.

Interesting that you play your games that when an IC joins a unit defined from its troops allowance, it's no longer the same unit as it now is comprised of models, as 'defined' in the codex.

Very interesting point of view. One that I don't think you will have anyone siding with you on, but interesting none the less...

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If you deploy all 4 IC's in coherency with the TWC unit, they will all simultaneously join the TWC unit.

Problem Solved.

And when you move said unit on your first turn, you would have to move them so will not be in coherency at the end of your movement phase. Good job on a useless loophole.

Not at all. they can stay together, according to you they can not join a unit of TWC +IC, but if they are already joined up they do not have to part ways.

that is all moot because they are allowed to join a TWC unit even if other IC's are attached.

@ Brother Ramses

You need a rule telling us that a status-change occurs for said change to occur.
That is how the rules work.

If such a rule cannot be shown to exist, then no change happens.

Can you quote such a rule?

Brother Ramses wrote:As defined by the codex,

Thunderwolf Cavalry Unit Composition:

1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry

Fenrisian Wolf Pack

5-15 Fenrisian Wolves.

Incorporating the above into the Thunderwolf Mountentry:

"However, he may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry(1-5 Thunderwolf Cavalry) or Fenrisian Wolves(5-15 Fenrisian Wolves) - anything else is asking for trouble!"

This would be right had the restriction stated the unit be 'composed of TWC only'. The restriction is not on the composition of the unit, only the inclusion of the unit itself. A TWC unit with joined IC is still a TWC unit. No restriction on composition is EVER mentioned in the TWM rules.

You do understand that under your standard,

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with a jump pack chaplain, because the TWM isn't joining the chaplain, he is joining the TWC unit.

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with a bike mounted IC, because the TWm isn't joining the bike mounted IC, he is joining the TWC unit.

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with Ragnar, because the TWM isn't joining Ragnar, he is joining the TWC unit.

That premise goes against all the rules for unit composition, the TWM entry, and the rules for an IC joining a unit.

Every single one of you is either ignoring the RAW that defines the composition of a TWC unit and the situation of a TWM joining a unit of TWC, but somehow NOT also joining the existing TWM. Not a single one of you has cited or referenced a rules source that gives you permission to ignore the already attached TWM.

So again, anyone, please cite the page number or source that gives you permission to join the TWC but willfully ignore the already attached TWM and join the TWM. I have shown you what defines a TWC unit which is called for in the TWM rule entry. I have shown you the rules for an IC joining a unit. So basically anyone show me where you have permission for a TWM to join a TWM, because that is what you are trying to do.

IC's are given permission to join other units in the BGB. There are several restrictions given to this permission:
1. The target unit may not be a vehicle, or a group of vehicles.
2.The unit may not be one that always consists of a single model.
3. The IC must move to within 2" of the 'target' unit, or be deployed in coherency with the target unit.

The TWM rules list 1 additional restriction for a character trying to join another unit. This restriction is that the 'target' unit be either TWC, or Fenrisian Wolves.

Brother Ramses wrote: So basically anyone show me where you have permission for a TWM to join a TWM, because that is what you are trying to do.

The onus is on you to find additional restrictions, in print and not simply inferred, other than those posted above. As I said in an earlier post, I agree that having an infantry model in this same unit is probably against RAI, but is not at all against RAW. Joining a TWM to an otherwise eligible unit that already has a TWM joined is also neither breaking the RAW, or IMHO, the RAI.

BR, you appear to be confusing the composition of what can be bought in a unit with what can be attached to the unit.

A unit of thunderwolves is a unit of thunderwolves, and its codex entry shows what can be purchased in said unit. It doesn't stop being a unit of thunderwolves because an IC joins it.

BR's problem is that he thinks you are joining two units, or that the unit you are joining is no longer a twc unit as 'defined' in the codex entry.

And he completely ignores the follow up to his logic, that if a unit truly is changed from it's 'definition', then simply having an IC join a troop unit would no longer make that a troop unit.

I am not sure this argument can go much further at this point. 40k is a permissive rules set. As such BR needs to find a rule stating that units change type when joined by an IC. He can't but continues to state that everyone else here is incorrect and that the burden is upon us to prove it is permitted when not stated clearly to be not permitted. That's not how a permissive rules set works.

Anyways I am going to bow out at this point since this appears to not be going anywhere.

At the OP to clarify: The all Thunderlord only unit is not legal as per the RAW and I have seen that interpretation enforced at tournaments. I have never seen BR assertion enforced, or even discussed in a legitimate manner, ever.

Lordhat wrote:IC's are given permission to join other units in the BGB. There are several restrictions given to this permission:
1. The target unit may not be a vehicle, or a group of vehicles.
2.The unit may not be one that always consists of a single model.
3. The IC must move to within 2" of the 'target' unit, or be deployed in coherency with the target unit.

The TWM rules list 1 additional restriction for a character trying to join another unit. This restriction is that the 'target' unit be either TWC, or Fenrisian Wolves.

Brother Ramses wrote: So basically anyone show me where you have permission for a TWM to join a TWM, because that is what you are trying to do.

The onus is on you to find additional restrictions, in print and not simply inferred, other than those posted above. As I said in an earlier post, I agree that having an infantry model in this same unit is probably against RAI, but is not at all against RAW. Joining a TWM to an otherwise eligible unit that already has a TWM joined is also neither breaking the RAW, or IMHO, the RAI.

The restriction by the TWM entry is that the target can ONLY be TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. There is no additional permission given beyond what constitutes a unit of TWC or a unit of Fenrisian Wolves. As I said, you are blatantly ignoring that an IC on a TWM is part of the TWC unit to allow another TWM to join except have zero permission to do that.

OverwatchCNC wrote:I am not sure this argument can go much further at this point. 40k is a permissive rules set. As such BR needs to find a rule stating that units change type when joined by an IC. He can't but continues to state that everyone else here is incorrect and that the burden is upon us to prove it is permitted when not stated clearly to be not permitted. That's not how a permissive rules set works.

Anyways I am going to bow out at this point since this appears to not be going anywhere.

At the OP to clarify: The all Thunderlord only unit is not legal as per the RAW and I have seen that interpretation enforced at tournaments. I have never seen BR assertion enforced, or even discussed in a legitimate manner, ever.

From the emboldened text above, it is obvious that you do not understand a permissive ruleset. With the above you have just stated,

"Nothing says I can't do it, so I can."

That is wrong. Until you can find a permission that allows you to join a TWM to the TWC, while ignoring the already attached TWM with the unit, then you cannot. That is a permissive ruleset.

An IC Joins a unit of TWC.

A different IC moves to within 2" of the TWC unit, he joins it as well, since they are still a unit of TWC even with a different IC attached.

To say they are not the same unit of TWC, simply because of an attached IC, is wrong as shown by the Shooting and assaulting example.

Brother Ramses wrote:

The restriction by the TWM entry is that the target can ONLY be TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.

This is incorrect. The rule says that the character can only join TWC or Fenrisian Wolves units. Nothing in the BRB, FAQ, or any codex states, infers, or implies that any unit ceases to be what it is by joining a character to it, independent or otherwise. As a matter of fact the opposite is true.

BGB pg49 wrote: Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may nor be picked out as targets.

BGB pg49 wrote: If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too as it is part of the unit.

Emphasis mine.

Everywhere the BGB mentions characters joined to a unit it is stated that the character is treated as part of the joined unit. Nowhere is it stated that the two become some sort of 'hybrid' unit.