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Brother Ramses wrote:A TWM can join a unit of TWC with a jump pack chaplain, because the TWM isn't joining the chaplain, he is joining the TWC unit.

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with a bike mounted IC, because the TWm isn't joining the bike mounted IC, he is joining the TWC unit.

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with Ragnar, because the TWM isn't joining Ragnar, he is joining the TWC unit

I can't find anywhere in the rules that says these aren't allowed.

It's obviously allowed as brother Ramses is the only person saying it can't. I checked also and can't see where he is coming up with his view on the rule. Thankfully my group sees the way it should be. Keep rolling dice everyone.

grendel083 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:A TWM can join a unit of TWC with a jump pack chaplain, because the TWM isn't joining the chaplain, he is joining the TWC unit.

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with a bike mounted IC, because the TWm isn't joining the bike mounted IC, he is joining the TWC unit.

A TWM can join a unit of TWC with Ragnar, because the TWM isn't joining Ragnar, he is joining the TWC unit

I can't find anywhere in the rules that says these aren't allowed.

There is nothing that stops them happening other then they are almost exclusively terrible choices to make in a game and nobody makes those units.

I'm leaning to agree with Brother Ramses.

Using the Hive Commander ability to outflank with a Troops unit you cannot attach a Tyranid Prime to the unit as it is no longer just a troops unit, its a Troops + HQ Unit. It's the same princible here, it's no longer just a TWC, Its a TWC with a TWM unit.

Yonush wrote:I'm leaning to agree with Brother Ramses.

Using the Hive Commander ability to outflank with a Troops unit you cannot attach a Tyranid Prime to the unit as it is no longer just a troops unit, its a Troops + HQ Unit. It's the same princible here, it's no longer just a TWC, Its a TWC with a TWM unit.

The rules say that Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit. so it is still just a unit of TWC.

BGB pg49 wrote: Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may nor be picked out as targets.

BGB pg49 wrote: If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too as it is part of the unit.

So by that logic DeathReaper, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors can use the Hive Commanders Outflank ability.

Yonush wrote:So by that logic DeathReaper, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors can use the Hive Commanders Outflank ability.

As long as the Tyranid Prime is an IC and the warriors are troops then the IC is 'considered part of that unit'

So the rules allow for that to happen.

Edit: Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere.

It wouldn't be the firs time that a GW FAQ blatantly disregarded the actual rules in order to give the Tyranid codex a solid shafting.

I'll have to do an additional FAQ review. I remember it being discussed here that it was not allowed for the above reasoning, not a specific FAQ shafting. But if the concensus is that it CAN join now, all the better for me, I'm good with it either way, just as long as it's consistant (as it can be with GW)

@Yonush: I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember a dumb FAQ ruling that prevented a 'Prime from joining a Brood that was entering play by a Mycetic Spore, but I could be mistaken.

Yep, that was and still there.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yonush wrote:So by that logic DeathReaper, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors can use the Hive Commanders Outflank ability.

As long as the Tyranid Prime is an IC and the warriors are troops then the IC is 'considered part of that unit'

So the rules allow for that to happen.

Edit: Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere.

No FAQ, but here are the two sides:
1) the way you are arguing
2) Hive Commander gives Outflank to a Troops unit. The HQ does not gain the ability because (surprise) he's not a Troop.
You can't outflank an unit unless it completely has Outflank.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Yonush wrote:So by that logic DeathReaper, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors can use the Hive Commanders Outflank ability.

As long as the Tyranid Prime is an IC and the warriors are troops then the IC is 'considered part of that unit'

So the rules allow for that to happen.

Edit: Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere.

No FAQ, but here are the two sides:
1) the way you are arguing
2) Hive Commander gives Outflank to a Troops unit. The HQ does not gain the ability because (surprise) he's not a Troop.
You can't outflank an unit unless it completely has Outflank.

Good point.

If the unit has the scout or Infiltrate special rules then they can outflank, but scout and Infiltrate are lost when an IC joins the unit.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Yonush wrote:So by that logic DeathReaper, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors can use the Hive Commanders Outflank ability.

As long as the Tyranid Prime is an IC and the warriors are troops then the IC is 'considered part of that unit'

So the rules allow for that to happen.

Edit: Unless I missed a FAQ somewhere.

No FAQ, but here are the two sides:
1) the way you are arguing
2) Hive Commander gives Outflank to a Troops unit. The HQ does not gain the ability because (surprise) he's not a Troop.
You can't outflank an unit unless it completely has Outflank.

Good point.

If the unit has the scout or Infiltrate special rules then they can outflank, but scout and Infiltrate are lost when an IC joins the unit.

Again, different Hive Commander bestows the ability to Outflank - it does not bestow Scout or Infiltrate.

there is no "outflank" ability, just permission to do so for a unit of troops. If an ic changes the unit to be more than troops then Brother Ramses is correct.

Actually the Outflank rules are on P.94 of the BRB.

it says that units with 'scout' or 'Infiltrate' special rules can outflank.(It is not a USR, but it is deployment that units with 'scout' or 'Infiltrate' special rules can declare.)

Then it describes the process of outflanking.

Right - HC makes the Warriors outflank. IC joins Warriors. Can Warriors (plus IC) still outflank?

Very similar situation in that if the Warriors cannot outflank, then the IC changed the status of the unit. If that IC joining changed the status of the unit, then a TWM joining a TWC unit changes the status of the TWC unit (as would any IC).

If it doesn't, you're also saying that a Prime joining a Warrior unit does not change the status of that unit, and they can therefore outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually the Outflank rules are on P.94 of the BRB.

it says that units with 'scout' or 'Infiltrate' special rules can outflank.(It is not a USR, but it is deployment that units with 'scout' or 'Infiltrate' special rules can declare.)

Then it describes the process of outflanking.

Correct.
But HC doesn't bestow a USR. It just allows the unit to outflank - the HC ability being more specific than the description under Outflank about what units are allowed to do so.

As I said earlier; another example of a GW FAQ giving the Tyranid codex a digital rectal exam with a telephone pole.

It would seem that the warriors can outflank. since the rules for joining IC's to units is done when you put them into reserve.

and that is when you use the Hive Commander ability.

so the unit of warriors with an IC should be able to outflank.

Saldiven wrote:As I said earlier; another example of a GW FAQ giving the Tyranid codex a digital rectal exam with a telephone pole.

There is no FAQ covering this situation.

I believe he is referring to the Prime and Mycetic Spore question.

Oh rigeld, I noticed, that the question about the Spre Cloud asks about Venomthropes and "frindly" units. Good things my other units are more than "frindly", they're "friendly" (with the "e" added in).

Happyjew wrote:I believe he is referring to the Prime and Mycetic Spore question.

Possibly, but this has little/nothing to do with that.

Oh rigeld, I noticed, that the question about the Spre Cloud asks about Venomthropes and "frindly" units. Good things my other units are more than "frindly", they're "friendly" (with the "e" added in).

Yeah - you can tell that question either got slipped in at the last second or the FAQ update had zero editing overall.

Not the spore issue. That's explicit. Solely outflank. If the Warriors with Prime can outflank with Hive Commander, then Ramses is wrong. If Prime Cannot outflank with Warriors then Ramses is correct.

The general consensus prior was they could not. If that has changed all the better for me

Edit for typo.

I have thought about this and I think the designation makes a difference in the case of the Hive Commander upgrade.

Hive Commander gives a unit of troops the ability to outflank. In Dawn of war if you deploy a unit of warriors with a Prime, you have deployed 1 Troop unit, AND 1 HQ unit even though they are all 1 unit.

Had it said "Hive Commander gives a unit of Genestealers the ability to outflank." Then you could join an IC to them and outflank with them.

With the TWM restriction it only says they are allowed to join a unit of TWC.

If it had said they can only join a Fast Attack choice then you could not have any IC's attached.

It can't work both ways. TWC with a char is deployed as HQ + Troops also in DoW so by thay couldn't have 2 ICs as it changes the unit classification.

Yonush wrote:It can't work both ways. TWC with a char is deployed as HQ + Troops also in DoW so by thay couldn't have 2 ICs as it changes the unit classification.

It can since the restrictions are not related.

Dawn of war also includes "dedicated transports" as "troops", I would not consider them as an actual "troop". You could still run a unit with two ICs, but they could not be deployed and would have to walk on or be reserved.

I think some clarification that would help is that the IC, in this case the Wolf Lords, are not part of the unit, but rather attached.

This would mean that the first wolf lord attaches to the Thunderwolf Cavalry, but is not an inherent part of it. The second wolf lord then joins the Thunderwolf Cavalry, that has a wolf lord already attached, but not part of the core unit.

Ghawhaar wrote:Dawn of war also includes "dedicated transports" as "troops", I would not consider them as an actual "troop". You could still run a unit with two ICs, but they could not be deployed and would have to walk on or be reserved.

I think some clarification that would help is that the IC, in this case the Wolf Lords, are not part of the unit, but rather attached.

This would mean that the first wolf lord attaches to the Thunderwolf Cavalry, but is not an inherent part of it. The second wolf lord then joins the Thunderwolf Cavalry, that has a wolf lord already attached, but not part of the core unit.

Sorry been away, but busy with other things.

Are we just making things up now? Where do we find the rules about IC being parts of units, but not inherent to them? By the very unit description we know that an IC on a TWM is not normally part of a TWC unit. So where are we given permission to ignore the existing IC on a TWM when joining the unit with another IC on a TWM?

I am catching up, but did anyone actually give an explanation as to when joining the TWC, by virtue of the rules for unit coherency and IC joining units, the new TWM is also joining the existing IC on a TWM which is expressly forbidden?

Interesting point regarding the Hive Commander/Warriors and the DoW point regarding deployment.

Because he is not joining a unit of TWM Lord. He is joining a unit of TWC.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Are we just making things up now? Where do we find the rules about IC being parts of units, but not inherent to them? By the very unit description we know that an IC on a TWM is not normally part of a TWC unit. So where are we given permission to ignore the existing IC on a TWM when joining the unit with another IC on a TWM?

Doesn't matter.

The rules for IC's state that when an IC joins a unit, it is considered part of that unit. There is no TWC unit with a TWM/Lord joined, it is merely a TWC unit by definition.

The rules in question are cited above.