Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Battle report from www.imperiusdominatus.com

Got a game with Dave aka Blood and Slaughter over the weekend. Dave is a experienced wargamer with a level head and has some interesting thoughts on tactics. He's using D.E, which he hasn't had for long, though he's got 28 games so quite few games to date, so I don't feel too bad about using G.K, plus I did ask if that was cool.

Grey Knights 'Purifier Order' - 2,000 points


HQ


Castellan Crowe

Troops


5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - Justicar w/ nemesis halberd
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - Justicar w/ nemesis halberd
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - Justicar w/ nemesis halberd
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - Justicar w/ nemesis halberd
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - Justicar w/ nemesis halberd
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - Justicar w/ nemesis halberd

Fast Attack


10 x Interceptors - 2 x psycannons & psybolt ammo - Justicar w/ nemesis daemon hammer

Heavy Support


Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannons & psybolt ammo
Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannons & psybolt ammo
Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannons & psybolt ammo

Dark Eldar - 2,000 points


HQ


Adsrubael Vect
2 x Haemonculus - 2 x liquefier guns

Elite


4 x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Venom - 4 x blasters - Venom w/ splinter cannon
4 x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Venom - 4 x blasters - Venom w/ splinter cannon
4 x Kabalite Trueborn w/ Venom - 4 x blasters - Venom w/ splinter cannon

Troops


7 x Wyches w/ Raider - haywire grenades Hekatrix w/ agoniser & phantasm grenade launcher - Raider w/ flickerfield & shock prow
7 x Wyches w/ Raider - haywire grenades Hekatrix w/ agoniser & phantasm grenade launcher - Raider w/ flickerfield & shock prow
5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon
5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon
5 x Kabalite Warriors w/ Venom - blaster - Venom w/ splinter cannon

Heavy Support


Ravager - flickerfield
Ravager - flickerfield
Ravager - flickerfield

Pre-Game Analysis


Ok, being a Dark Eldar player I should know what I need to do. Dave should also have enough experience as he's had 28 games with D.E, which is a lot, I think that's probably more than I've had with mine! lol.

The lances from Ravagers and Trueborn will be a issue, they can pop my Rhinos easily and tackle my Dreadnoughts in time. If I can nail these units first not only will I be taking out anti tank but also splinter cannons too, which will be gunning for the Interceptors.

The Wyches will tarpit my units in close combat, the key to beating Wyches is to shoot their ride down before they make combat. Then gun the little bitches down. If there's only a few of them left then you should deal with them in assault.

Game: Seize Ground + Spearhead

Deployment


Objectives have been placed with one on top of the shrine ruin, one top right corner, one in the centre right and the other centre of the board, basically the objectives go around in 'U' shape.

Dave wins the roll off and takes the top right corner. This corner gives him the best cover, though puts him away from the bulk of objectives, however with his speed he can easily reach them. He puts all his units behind the shrine ruin apart from one or two, so if I did seize then there's not a lot I can shoot at.

I deploy in the bottom right corner and use my slow rhino 2x3 formation, Dreadnoughts go behind with the Interceptor unit on the hill far back. Crowe takes cover in a LOS blocking ruin.








* Tactical Notes


Ok, three objectives are pretty close to me, all are really within 12"-15" so in this game I can afford to stay static as long as I can to get maximum fire power and then move out in the latter turns, also this will keep me out of range of blasters for a limited time.


If I can nail the Ravagers first turn with Dreadnoughts and psycannon the Wych Raiders to pieces I'll be happy.


Turn 1


Dave moves everything flat out except the Ravagers, he spreads his army out so Vect's Raider is near my board edge supported by a Trueborn Venom and Ravager, which the two are hanging back by the shrine ruin. Up in my face hiding behind a tower ruin is a Warrior and Trueborn Venom, both are supported by the two Ravagers. Two Venoms and the Wych Raider zoom down Dave's table edge while one hangs back in the shrine ruin.

Shooting; Ravagers fire and open up two Rhinos; both go goom, squad nearest Vect loses a Grey Knights while the squad nearest the Wyches loses two Grey Knights. That's it for D.E, not a bad start.

I hold position with all my units, excepts the Interceptors which bound out along my table edge moving behind the ruin, they can blast Vect and his bitches.

Shooting; unit of Purifiers on the back row of Rhinos blasts the Wyches Raider, though flickerfield makes the saves, the three man squad on foot has a go and the Raider goes boom, the Wyches then get blasted by psycannon fire and only two remain - they pass morale. Dreadnoughts open fire and take out the two Ravagers in my face and stun the one hanging back. Unit of four Grey Knights dakka dakka Vect's Raider and it goes boom, Vect and his bitches get shot by psycannons and psybolts from the Interceptors - squad passes pinning test.







* Tactical Notes


Ok, I think I've got off to a very good start. Two Ravagers are down and the other is stunned, this will buy me some time from lance fire. Both Wyche units are down and as long as I keep firing at them they won't have any significant impact in close combat, plus where they are positioned means they have to cross open ground to reach my lines.


Dave hasn't started off too bad. He's opened up two Rhinos, which with the craters make cause issues with terrain tests. He can also splinter cannon them later, shame he cannot capitalise on that this turn as it would have done him a great deal of good. I do feel that he has spread his units out too much which is going to let me easily pick them off.


Next turn I'll take out that single Ravager, even if I stop it shooting I'll be happy. Trueborn inside the tower ruin will be gunned down with psycannons and storm bolters while the Trueborn near the Wyches by Dave's table edge will be gunned down as will the other unit hanging back.


Turn 2


Trueborn behind the tower bail out their Venom and move into the base of the tower, their Venom shoots off to support the remaining Ravager. The Warrior Venom moves 12" to also support the Venom while a Warrior Venom which was supporting the Wyches' Raider moves flat out and hides behind the shrine ruin. Haemonculus splits from the Wyches and leaves his pain token with them, he moves and runs down into the closest Ravager crater. Vect and the Wyches moves into the ruin right by the crater. I am not sure if Dave didn't move the remaining Trueborn Venoms on purpose or forgot too, both of them in their current position do not offer any benefits.

Shooting; Trueborn blast the remaining Rhino on the front line and it's shaken. Splinter cannons open up from the Venoms and the Interceptors are down to three men; squad passes morale. Splinter cannons fire into the four man unit in the crater, only the Justicar survives. Remaining splinter cannons fire into the three Purifier squad and they are wiped out.

Grey Knight's turn; Interceptors hold position so they can get maximum psycannon shots off on Vect's unit. The single Justicar moves into terrain next to Crowe or else he's Venom bait. One Dreadnought breaks formation and comes behind the Interceptors so it can get better LOS on the Trueborn Venom down the board. One Rhino from the back moves through the ruin where Crowe is so can get better LOS.

Shooting; Dreadnought blasts the Trueborn Venom and it goes boom, one Trueborn dies and the squad fails morale and falls back 3". Another Dreadnought fires and the last Ravager is wrecked. The last Dreadnought fires at the Trueborn Venom up by Dave's table edge and it goes boom, three Trueborn die and the survivor passes morale. Psycannons dakka the Haemonculus and he dies, the Trueborn in the tower with storm bolter support and they are dead, the Warrior Venom behind the ruin which goes boom, three survive after psycannon fire. Psycannons blast into Vect's unit, the Wyches take another morale test and pass.



* Tactical Notes


Ok, another good turn for me. Dark Eldar are dropping like flies at the moment and I am getting the slight hint of guilt, only a hint though. Dave did say it was cool, and it won't hurt him to take some of his own medicine as he's a G.K player . So, game wise, two units of Trueborn have been virtually dealt with while the other is stuck at the back of the board. The last Ravager is also smoked. All I need to do now is focus on the remaining Venoms to stop Dave's mobility.


Dave hasn't done too bad himself this turn, though not close to the Grey Knight destruction equal to Dark Eldar death. He has depleted the Interceptors, which no doubt will probably die next turn. I've also lost a Purifier unit and just the Justicar remains from the other.


Next turn I'll blast the four remaining Venoms, this should drop down Dave's mobility and also decrease his splinter cannons, which means my infantry and also objectives will be safe.


Turn 3


The falling Trueborn regroup and move back into the crater they just come from. The empty Trueborn Venom moves flat out so it hides behind the shrine ruin. Warriors bail out their Venom and climb the shrine ruin and claim the objective, while their Venom moves forward to blast the Interceptors. The last Venom moves so it's between the shrine ruin and tower so I cannot draw LOS to it very well, though it can easily see my Interceptors.

Shooting; the empty Venom near Vect blasts the Interceptors along with the Venom between the two ruins and wipes out the squad. I think that's about it.

Dreadnoughts move about a little bit while two Rhinos move 12" through terrain towards the objectives which spread out to Dave's table edge, both Rhinos pop smoke.

Shooting; Dreadnought blasts the empty Venom and scores immobilised and weapon destroyed, as there's nothing for psycannons to really fire at they blast it and it's wrecked. Dreadnought behind the ruin fires at the Venom between the tower and shrine ruin, it's immobilised and weapon destroyed. Psycannons blast into Vect's unit and claim move Wyches - squad passes morale test. Remaining Dreadnought blasts the squad on the objective in the shrine ruin, squad goes to ground and only one fails cover save.



* Tactical Notes


Ok, nearly all of Dave's mobility has been taken care of. There's one operational Venom left and that's behind the shrine ruin, though I can blast that later if the Venom comes out to play. Other than that the turn went well.


Things don't seem to be going well for Dave at the moment. He has lost his mobility and his Wych units are pinned down due to the gap of open ground between my Grey Knights and them. Though he's not out the game yet, he's keeping the Wyches at bay so they can move out and contest objectives nearby later.


Next turn I'll gun down the Warrior unit on the shrine ruin, I doubt I can see the Wych unit by Dave's table edge, though I can blast Vect's units to bits.


Turn 4


I don't think there's a lot or any movement from Dave this turn, he wisely keeps the operational Venom out of sight behind the shrine ruin.

Shooting; the solo Trueborn in the ruin by Dave's table edge blasts one of the oncoming Rhinos and wrecks it. The Warrior in the immobilised Venom fire with the blaster at the other Rhino, though smoke makes the save. That's about it.

My fourth turn; Dreadnought behind the ruin where Crowe and the Justicar are taking cover moves out so can do some dakka dakka, the Rhino which is in the centre at the front moves 6" so I can get the objective which is in the centre by my deployment zone, but also so I blast the Warriors on the shrine objective. Purifiers on foot hold position and are ready to give that single Trueborn a full dose of dakka.

Shooting; Purifiers waste the Trueborn. Purifiers in the Rhino which just moved blast the Warriors on the shrine ruin along with Dreadnought support, only two remain and they pass morale. I become aware that the Haemonculus isn't part of Vect's unit, he gets instagibbed by autocannons. I fire at the immobilised Venom with psycannons, but I am out of range.



* Tactical Notes


Not a lot going on this turn, just moping up units that I can really see. I've got most objectives in my hands now, though there's two Wyches which could stop me by Dave's table edge, though two Wyches aren't really a problem. There's also Vect by the centre objective by my table edge, Vect will be a issue.


Dave still has some chance in this game. While I do not expect the two Wyches to do anything, the operational Venom can move flat out and contest and Vect can also also too, which will make the game a draw.


Next turn I'll try my best to get LOS on the operational Venom and take it out. I'll move Crowe out depending if Dave moves Vect out, I suspect he will so he can get the objective close by. The two Wyches shouldn't be too hard for me to deal with.


Turn 5


The two Wyches move out of terrain and run down towards my Purifiers who killed the single Trueborn. Vect and his Wyches come out to play, though Vect splits off the Wyches run towards the objective, though they fall short. The last Venom peers around the shrine ruin and gets ready to dakka dakka some Space Marines.

Shooting; the last Venom fires into the Purifiers and kills one. That's it!

Assault; Wyches charge the Purifiers, I cast cleansing flame hoping to kill them giving me that extra edge, I kill one and then smash the other with nemesis daemon hammer.

The closest Rhino towards the shrine moves 6" and claims the centre objective while the other Rhino moves up 12", the Purifiers bail out ready to dakka Vect. Crowe comes out to play, though it's going to be very close if he's in assault range. Dreadnoughts shift about and move out while the Rhino by the Purifiers on foot moves on the axis to blast the last Venom. Purifiers on foot move up and claim the objective by Dave's table edge.

Shooting; psycannons blast the empty last Venom and it's wrecked. Autocannons blast the Warriors on the shrine objective, only one survives and passes morale. Psycannons blast the Wyches and they are destroyed, psycannons and storm bolters blast Vect, he fails a armour save and now has three wounds left, it's touch and go whether Crowe will reach him in assault so the close by Dreadnought instagibs Vect.

We roll for the game as Dave is hardcore and wants to continue, mercifully the games ends as Dave only has three Trueborn left and a single Warrior.

Grey Knights win claiming three objectives and Dark Eldar one.









Summary


A good game that one and nice to play someone new, not to sound cocky, the game went as I expected, though I did take a fair bit of damage; I lost half my Rhinos, Interceptor Squad and almost two Purifier Squads.


At the start of the game I was thinking of combat squading the Interceptors, though Dave would easily gun them down. I could have left them in reserve, but leaving 300+ points in reserve is a lot. Plus there's only one objective which would have been a problem taking and that was the shrine one.


I know Dave has 28 games under his belt, though we did discuss before hand about splitting the D.E army and keeping it together. Dave said he usually keeps it together and attacks as one force. With the skimmers spread about I could easily pick my targets and take apart his army piece by piece, the Ravagers should have stayed back because they have range and all Trueborn should have come forward 12" and then bailed out and fired, this would have put pressure on me with 12 blasters in my face. Also the entire army would have been better going along Dave's table edge and using the tower ruin for cover, only two Rhinos would have spotted him and I would have had to move out. If Dave would have done this, then perhaps three Rhinos may have been taken out first turn and almost two squads destroyed via splinter cannons.

GK are a really tough matchup for GK as is, and I think your analysis of a better strategy for him is spot on. I might have also left one Wych squad in reserve to flatout onto an objective later in the game as well, but I understand the desired to put them into the Purifiers.

Good game mercer. Not a lot of strategy here but then again who needs it when your opponents rush your 24" threat zone every time lol.

calypso2ts wrote:GK are a really tough matchup for GK as is, and I think your analysis of a better strategy for him is spot on. I might have also left one Wych squad in reserve to flatout onto an objective later in the game as well, but I understand the desired to put them into the Purifiers.

Yeah they are a tough match up, that's why I asked him before hand if that's ok, reason I wanted to play G.K as I was testing a new list other wise I would have taken Razor-Angels.

Leaving a Wych squad in reserve is a good idea. Could have come on where the objectives were and hidden behind the ruin at the top, and Wyches bail out. Then the Raider zoom down and ram a Rhino.

Red Corsair wrote:Good game mercer. Not a lot of strategy here but then again who needs it when your opponents rush your 24" threat zone every time lol.

Thanks about the game. Yup, can't say I used a lot of tactics in this game, just sit there and shoot . It's like I said in another report, why move out when there's no need too? I'm not going to rush out putting myself into range of the opponent's guns

I think I did forget to move one trueborn venom on turn two. With hindsight I actually think my initial thought, which was to move on turn one in such a way that you'd be out of range even moving, was probably the thing to do - as you had more firepower then me denying one turn of it would have been better. Then I should have 'suicided' my trueborn up to wreck more of your rhinos. In the game I havered in the first turn between denial and attack and paid the penalty...

But your slow formation is pretty strong really. Approaching to within blaster range means suffering lots of psycannon shots.

I was thinking that instead of the 10 man interceptor squad at 300+ points, you could maybe buy a stormraven and some more Purifiers so Crowe could have a Rhino to pinch and you'd have a scoring assaulty unit to go in the 'raven. Just another option to throw into the mix...

You mean my slow formation?

I wouldn't take a single Stormraven as that's begging for trouble. I could get more Purifiers, but only via combat squads.

I think I am going to leave the list alone. In capture and control games I just need to be more mobile instead of staying static, even moving out turn 3 will get me three turns to reach enemy objectives. Or I could go Vindicare and naked Interceptor squad, the Interceptors stay in reserve.

What's this 'slow' that Dakka has substituted? is the other word regarded as unecessarily offensive in Americanese? In which case I'd like to take this opportunity to object to the US use of 'spaz'.

I'm not certain the 'raven (reserved empty if you are going second) is a worse bet than interceptors though usually a single raven is kind of weak, I agree. But it, like the interceptors, gives extra mobility. As you say though, just moving out of 'slow' formation would do.

Aye, moving out would be fine. I could also go Vindicare and naked Interceptors.

I have always liked your battle reports, regardless of the comments that some of the others have posted on some of the previous threads.

Great batrep! keep them coming!

Nice battle report. I often field identicle armies; both GK and DE.

It is a bad matchup for DE, no two ways about it. DE has no good answer for Psyriflemen Dread Spam, and Wyches are not a good answer to Purifiers.

I was playing in a league a month ago or so, and was scheduled to play a GK player. He had never played DE before, so as a good sport I shared some tactics. We agreed not to tailor lists. I show up for the game and he is running
4 Psyrfilemen Dreads @ 2,000 points; 2 of them are venerable. He had not run Psyrifllemen Dreads in the league before that point. I refused to play him, and won't play him ever again.

I would have murdered him if he didn't have the Psyriflemen Dreads.

Budda 09 wrote:I have always liked your battle reports, regardless of the comments that some of the others have posted on some of the previous threads.

Great batrep! keep them coming!

Thanks, dude

Darklight wrote:Nice battle report. I often field identicle armies; both GK and DE.

It is a bad matchup for DE, no two ways about it. DE has no good answer for Psyriflemen Dread Spam, and Wyches are not a good answer to Purifiers.

I was playing in a league a month ago or so, and was scheduled to play a GK player. He had never played DE before, so as a good sport I shared some tactics. We agreed not to tailor lists. I show up for the game and he is running
4 Psyrfilemen Dreads @ 2,000 points; 2 of them are venerable. He had not run Psyrifllemen Dreads in the league before that point. I refused to play him, and won't play him ever again.

I would have murdered him if he didn't have the Psyriflemen Dreads.

Yes, G.K isn't the best match up for D.E and precisely why I asked Dave if he's cool me using G.K. If not I would have used something else..

In a variation of this list I have run 4 Dreadnoughts, two Venerables.

Why did you refuse to play him? Seems a bit harsh. What was his list before?

mercer wrote:

Budda 09 wrote:I have always liked your battle reports, regardless of the comments that some of the others have posted on some of the previous threads.

Great batrep! keep them coming!

Thanks, dude

Darklight wrote:Nice battle report. I often field identicle armies; both GK and DE.

It is a bad matchup for DE, no two ways about it. DE has no good answer for Psyriflemen Dread Spam, and Wyches are not a good answer to Purifiers.

I was playing in a league a month ago or so, and was scheduled to play a GK player. He had never played DE before, so as a good sport I shared some tactics. We agreed not to tailor lists. I show up for the game and he is running
4 Psyrfilemen Dreads @ 2,000 points; 2 of them are venerable. He had not run Psyrifllemen Dreads in the league before that point. I refused to play him, and won't play him ever again.

I would have murdered him if he didn't have the Psyriflemen Dreads.

Yes, G.K isn't the best match up for D.E and precisely why I asked Dave if he's cool me using G.K. If not I would have used something else..

In a variation of this list I have run 4 Dreadnoughts, two Venerables.

Why did you refuse to play him? Seems a bit harsh. What was his list before?

I refused to play him because we both agreed not to tailor our lists. He had know idea how to fight DE with GK, and had been using Dreadknights for his heavies up until that point.
Next week when he is scheduled to play me in the league, he is magically fielding 4 Psyriflemen. If he could have fielded 5-6, I am sure he would have.

He is the worst example of TFG I have ever seen. A WAAC GK tailoring cheese head, that has a reputation for cheating and being an all around douche.

Let's just say this about that. If you're Dark Eldar and you see 4 Rifleman Dreadnoughts across the table from you, you can go ahead and pack up because with that much power, he'll reduce your At to nil by turn 1 and let you walk into range of his army the rest of the game.

I don't agree actually. While Purifiers and dreadnoughts are a tough match, I think I should have played more aggressively on turn one (with a more aggressive set up), aiming to destroy 5 Rhinos on turn one with lance and blaster fire and eliminating 2 squads with the venoms. In return I'd have taken heavier casualties - probably all the ravagers and trueborn, likely both raiders too. But if I'd moved the raiders up and assaulted wiuth wyches I could have removed all his troop mobility and probably most of his troops.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Let's just say this about that. If you're Dark Eldar and you see 4 Rifleman Dreadnoughts across the table from you, you can go ahead and pack up because with that much power, he'll reduce your At to nil by turn 1 and let you walk into range of his army the rest of the game.

Depends on the list really. Not everyone playing DE uses venom spam.

What I like to do is either try to take pot shots with DLs from 36" out to force the rhinos to move up. With Night shields only the Psirifleman can hit you,
or
Rush forward with blasterborn, shooting trying to kill as much as possible. I then Run a unit or wracks, or fleet a unit of wyches in front of the blasterborn to give them a cover save.
If I can get cover on the wracks, they take forever to gun down, most people just shoot the blasterborn, but with cover it takes twice as many shots, so usually some survive.

Red Corsair wrote:

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Let's just say this about that. If you're Dark Eldar and you see 4 Rifleman Dreadnoughts across the table from you, you can go ahead and pack up because with that much power, he'll reduce your At to nil by turn 1 and let you walk into range of his army the rest of the game.

Depends on the list really. Not everyone playing DE uses venom spam.

Doesn't really matter. You still have to get to him to do anything. The dreads have a range of 48". He can sit back on the table edge and shoot, with the rhinos slightly forward in a T formation.
You will have to come to him to do anything. If you are using a WWP list, you still need to get to midfield to drop it, and that usually involves at least 1-2 venoms.

By the time you get to him, your skimmers and T3 troops are blown apart from the dreads alone. Add in 48 Psycannon shots on top of it, and it is a done deal 99% of the time. If he goes first, I would put the GK victory
percentage at around 99.9%. Everytime one of the dreads fires, it will drop a skimmer, or decimate a unit.

Even if you get to him in assault, Wyches & Incubi fail miserably against Purifiers.

It is the worst matchup for DE in the current meta, bar none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:What I like to do is either try to take pot shots with DLs from 36" out to force the rhinos to move up. With Night shields only the Psirifleman can hit you,
or
Rush forward with blasterborn, shooting trying to kill as much as possible. I then Run a unit or wracks, or fleet a unit of wyches in front of the blasterborn to give them a cover save.
If I can get cover on the wracks, they take forever to gun down, most people just shoot the blasterborn, but with cover it takes twice as many shots, so usually some survive.

"With Night shields only the Psirifleman can hit you, "

But that's is all he needs dude. He can sit back and blast you with the Psyrifleman, and you will not win a shooting match against it with darklances. You HAVE to move forward to
do anything, and barring some really bad roles, you won't win when you get there.

Agreed. Purifiers + Psyrifledreads are really all that is required to counter absolutely every Eldar list, from what I have seen in my group.

Hanging back? They have greater range, accuracy and durability. You can't even stun or shake them to lessen the incoming fire.

Going forward? Even if you crack the vehicles, you'll be murdered by massed psycannons.

Really, the only strategy is reserving everything and hope it all comes in during turn 5, at which point the game ends.

Darklight wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Let's just say this about that. If you're Dark Eldar and you see 4 Rifleman Dreadnoughts across the table from you, you can go ahead and pack up because with that much power, he'll reduce your At to nil by turn 1 and let you walk into range of his army the rest of the game.

Depends on the list really. Not everyone playing DE uses venom spam.

Doesn't really matter. You still have to get to him to do anything. The dreads have a range of 48". He can sit back on the table edge and shoot, with the rhinos slightly forward in a T formation.
You will have to come to him to do anything. If you are using a WWP list, you still need to get to midfield to drop it, and that usually involves at least 1-2 venoms.

By the time you get to him, your skimmers and T3 troops are blown apart from the dreads alone. Add in 48 Psycannon shots on top of it, and it is a done deal 99% of the time. If he goes first, I would put the GK victory
percentage at around 99.9%. Everytime one of the dreads fires, it will drop a skimmer, or decimate a unit.

Even if you get to him in assault, Wyches & Incubi fail miserably against Purifiers.

It is the worst matchup for DE in the current meta, bar none.

You can run a successful DE WWP list with no vehicles actually. 10 grotesques with 2 heamonculi carry the portals. With wound allocation shenanigans there whole army can fire and you shouldn't lose more then one grot if you find them cover. Add Lady malice to the mob and now they are immune to NFW. Get creative, don't just refute every other post with the same banter. I get it, you run venom heavy lists like 90% of all other DE players. That's really your problem that you fun face first into a bad match up. Venom spam gets rocked by IG, space wolves, and even shooty necrons, thats most of the 'online' meta so maybe you should stop throwing paper airplanes into the fire and find a hose.

Red Corsair wrote:

Darklight wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Let's just say this about that. If you're Dark Eldar and you see 4 Rifleman Dreadnoughts across the table from you, you can go ahead and pack up because with that much power, he'll reduce your At to nil by turn 1 and let you walk into range of his army the rest of the game.

Depends on the list really. Not everyone playing DE uses venom spam.

Doesn't really matter. You still have to get to him to do anything. The dreads have a range of 48". He can sit back on the table edge and shoot, with the rhinos slightly forward in a T formation.
You will have to come to him to do anything. If you are using a WWP list, you still need to get to midfield to drop it, and that usually involves at least 1-2 venoms.

By the time you get to him, your skimmers and T3 troops are blown apart from the dreads alone. Add in 48 Psycannon shots on top of it, and it is a done deal 99% of the time. If he goes first, I would put the GK victory
percentage at around 99.9%. Everytime one of the dreads fires, it will drop a skimmer, or decimate a unit.

Even if you get to him in assault, Wyches & Incubi fail miserably against Purifiers.

It is the worst matchup for DE in the current meta, bar none.

You can run a successful DE WWP list with no vehicles actually. 10 grotesques with 2 heamonculi carry the portals. With wound allocation shenanigans there whole army can fire and you shouldn't lose more then one grot if you find them cover. Add Lady malice to the mob and now they are immune to NFW. Get creative, don't just refute every other post with the same banter. I get it, you run venom heavy lists like 90% of all other DE players. That's really your problem that you fun face first into a bad match up. Venom spam gets rocked by IG, space wolves, and even shooty necrons, thats most of the 'online' meta so maybe you should stop throwing paper airplanes into the fire and find a hose.

The 10 Grotesques and 2 Haemonculi WWP list wouldn't work against a good player running Grey Knight Purifier Spam. Even with wound allocation, they would get shot up before they even made it into assault. They don't get a save
against the shooting, which is all wounding on 2's. And if you are keeping them in cover the whole time, they aren't advancing very far. You can only differentiate 2 of them + Haemonculi in a squad; 1 with wargear and 1 Aberration. It is highly likely that the
entire 10 Grotesques and Haemonculi would be wiped out in a single turn or two of focused shooting. On top of all of this, you are encouraging marching them across the table into the GK killzone.

Once in assault, what is left of them would be easily cleared by the Purifiers. Additionally, a DE Grotesque list is far inferior to Venom Spam as an "all comers list". Dark Eldar are all about speed, and lightning fast alpha strikes. Not using the army to these strengths, is not optimal IMO.
With this being said, please feel free to post a battle report. It would be interesting to analyze.

I haven't had any problems with Space Wolves using Venom Spam. Long Fangs go down really easily to massed splinter cannons. Necrons have been extremely easy to slaughter. They are slow, barring a couple of units, and almost all of their shooting is 24". The only Necron list I fear is Scythe Spam. Granted I use a modified Venom Spam list with assault elements.

Grots march up, drop 2 WWP's, there's your cover. 3 pain tokens means FnP. Do the math, 3 dreads will hit 10 times and wound 8-9 after FnP that's 4-5 which in the three wound groups doesn't kill one and that was not factoring cover. Now my beast packs and taloi can hop out of the WWP's and pop tanks and multi assault. Fairly simple to grasp.

Using Malys allows me to redeploy which will allow me to counter the limited range of the psycanons. Forcing them to move will cut their ability in half. Again, 24 shots, 16 hits, 13 wounds 6-7 FnP. 6-7 wounds that keep in mind are from 6 sources which allows me to reuse wound groups. This time with 2 more groups using the haemonculi that would have died to the Dreads. Trust me, they will lose 2 grots total from the whole ordeal on average.

Anyway, I am not trying to argue "well then I would do this" scenarios, rather stating that there are other unique builds that handle match up problems differently. WWP lists are very viable they are often overlooked because V-spam is "the build" according to most people. I play both, and find either build viable. In the GK match up I think my WWP build has the edge over Venoms.

PS. Try that Grot mob sometime if you don't believe me. The amount of flack it can weather is comical. With FA they can tear light transports to pieces and batter anything left out intro pulp.

Red Corsair wrote:Grots march up, drop 2 WWP's, there's your cover. 3 pain tokens means FnP. Do the math, 3 dreads will hit 10 times and wound 8-9 after FnP that's 4-5 which in the three wound groups doesn't kill one and that was not factoring cover. Now my beast packs and taloi can hop out of the WWP's and pop tanks and multi assault. Fairly simple to grasp.

Using Malys allows me to redeploy which will allow me to counter the limited range of the psycanons. Forcing them to move will cut their ability in half. Again, 24 shots, 16 hits, 13 wounds 6-7 FnP. 6-7 wounds that keep in mind are from 6 sources which allows me to reuse wound groups. This time with 2 more groups using the haemonculi that would have died to the Dreads. Trust me, they will lose 2 grots total from the whole ordeal on average.

Anyway, I am not trying to argue "well then I would do this" scenarios, rather stating that there are other unique builds that handle match up problems differently. WWP lists are very viable they are often overlooked because V-spam is "the build" according to most people. I play both, and find either build viable. In the GK match up I think my WWP build has the edge over Venoms.

PS. Try that Grot mob sometime if you don't believe me. The amount of flack it can weather is comical. With FA they can tear light transports to pieces and batter anything left out intro pulp.

Can you post a 2,000 point list that you would typically run with this build? If you are taking it to counter GK's, what do you do if your opponent is running Draigo Wing? Draigo+Librarian in a block of 10 Paladins will destroy all 10 grots, and anything that comes thru the WWP, without breaking too much of a sweat.

Darklight wrote:
Can you post a 2,000 point list that you would typically run with this build? If you are taking it to counter GK's, what do you do if your opponent is running Draigo Wing? Draigo+Librarian in a block of 10 Paladins will destroy all 10 grots, and anything that comes thru the WWP, without breaking too much of a sweat.

Against Draigowing, just feed them a sacrificial unit to keep them occupied and go after the rest of the army. You may lose in annihilation (not many armies will beat them in KP's anyways), but you have a decent chance to take them in objectives by exploiting one of the greatest weaknesses - lack of mobility or what I call trying-to-be-in-2-places-at-once.

The more I read about GK the more ridiculous they seem.

There is a pretty extensive write up with battle reports on this Grotesque/Haemoculi setup here

http://synaps3.blogspot.com/p/dark-eldar-3rd-army.html

IMO GK builds with Coteaz, minimum size henchmen troops in vehicles and a few maxed vehicles sit head and shoulders abover other armys. The other builds, while good, do not have the same power level.

Ok so the biggest thing I don't get while reading this is this: the purifiers aren't in range to start with so why shoot the rhinos? I know they need to go but it looks like the psyrifleman dreads were definently the higher target priority. Even a weapon destroyed raises your chances of survivng next turn. Vect also seemed like a lot when the points could have been spent on reavers or scourges with heat lances. If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list. Shock Prows, haywires, and PGLs also seemed to be a waste. I mean you already have offensive grenades and against this heavy of a shooty list defensive won't help. Haywires will struggle against GK with fortitude, and why tank shock with an almost guaranteed S7 hit coming?

The dreadnoughts had 4+ cover. Assuming deployment that would allow all trueborn to unload within 18" of the dreadnoughts and keeping the ravagers beyond 30", then I'd have had 21 blaster and lance shots. 14 hits. 5 pens (assuming a wee bit of luck), 2 destroyed results (assuming a wee bit more luck) and one cover save made. One dead dreadnought.

Next turn he'd likely destroy or disable two ravagers and the trueborn and their venoms would be obliterated by fire from purifiers.

That would not really have helped much.

As I say, my mistake was not targeting the rhino's enough on turn one. With his scoring troops in the open, they'd be easy meat for venoms. Even then it'd have been tough but going for the dreadnoughts would have actually been worse.

Akroma06 wrote:Ok so the biggest thing I don't get while reading this is this: the purifiers aren't in range to start with so why shoot the rhinos? I know they need to go but it looks like the psyrifleman dreads were definently the higher target priority. Even a weapon destroyed raises your chances of survivng next turn. Vect also seemed like a lot when the points could have been spent on reavers or scourges with heat lances. If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list. Shock Prows, haywires, and PGLs also seemed to be a waste. I mean you already have offensive grenades and against this heavy of a shooty list defensive won't help. Haywires will struggle against GK with fortitude, and why tank shock with an almost guaranteed S7 hit coming?

"If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list."

That's the trick, isn't it. The problem is, the dreads are extremely difficult to destroy if the GK player knows what he is doing.
Fortitude is the biggest issue. You can't stun or shake them. If you do manage to get lucky and blow one up, you may reroll if it is venerable.

If they are deployed correctly, it is extremely difficult to get to them with Haywire grenades.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:I don't agree actually. While Purifiers and dreadnoughts are a tough match, I think I should have played more aggressively on turn one (with a more aggressive set up), aiming to destroy 5 Rhinos on turn one with lance and blaster fire and eliminating 2 squads with the venoms. In return I'd have taken heavier casualties - probably all the ravagers and trueborn, likely both raiders too. But if I'd moved the raiders up and assaulted wiuth wyches I could have removed all his troop mobility and probably most of his troops.

Dave, that's exactly what I would have done.

As mentioned to you at the end of the game, I would have moved everything along your table edge and used the tower ruin to block LOS. Truborn bail out and with the Ravagers lance the crap out of the front Rhinos and also Dreadnoughts, each unit firing lance weaponry should hit three shots and score a pen and glance on a Rhino. With luck you should take out all front three Rhinos as you have six lance units firing, splinters then go to work on the Purifiers. I would have kept the Wyches in reserve when playing spearhead, you could have brought them down from your board edge and probably get a assault with them from when they come in, possibly tie up Dreadnoughts in assault as well.

I think doing the above would definitely increase your chances of causing more damage and taking less damage in return, at least it's possible that three Rhinos and the squad inside could have been taken out and maybe a Dreadnought.

Sephyr wrote:Agreed. Purifiers + Psyrifledreads are really all that is required to counter absolutely every Eldar list, from what I have seen in my group.

Hanging back? They have greater range, accuracy and durability. You can't even stun or shake them to lessen the incoming fire.

Going forward? Even if you crack the vehicles, you'll be murdered by massed psycannons.

Really, the only strategy is reserving everything and hope it all comes in during turn 5, at which point the game ends.

Yeah, like everything is going to come in turn 5 . Keeping everything in reserve will just make the slaughter easier

Red Corsair wrote:That's really your problem that you fun face first into a bad match up. Venom spam gets rocked by IG, space wolves, and even shooty necrons, thats most of the 'online' meta so maybe you should stop throwing paper airplanes into the fire and find a hose.

Never had a problem against Space Wolves, beaten typical Wolf Razor-Fang lists several times, though going first with D.E does help, though splinters waste Long Fangs pretty quickly and lances tear through Rhino chassis. Necrons I would say it's about even, I've played against Venom spam with my Necrons and played against Necrons with my Venom spam, it's a equal match up and pretty tough. Though you're totally right about mech I.G, they are evil.

Akroma06 wrote:Ok so the biggest thing I don't get while reading this is this: the purifiers aren't in range to start with so why shoot the rhinos? I know they need to go but it looks like the psyrifleman dreads were definently the higher target priority. Even a weapon destroyed raises your chances of survivng next turn. Vect also seemed like a lot when the points could have been spent on reavers or scourges with heat lances. If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list. Shock Prows, haywires, and PGLs also seemed to be a waste. I mean you already have offensive grenades and against this heavy of a shooty list defensive won't help. Haywires will struggle against GK with fortitude, and why tank shock with an almost guaranteed S7 hit coming?

The Purifiers were in range turn 1, once Dave moved everything towards me. When taking the Rhinos out, he could have splinter'd the G.K if he hadn't moved everything flat out. I would have bailed out the Trueborn and used them to dakka the Dreadnoughts while the Ravagers go for the Rhinos, then splinter cannons waste the Purifiers. I do agree with other things you said i.e phantasm grenade launcher, shock prow etc.

calypso2ts wrote:There is a pretty extensive write up with battle reports on this Grotesque/Haemoculi setup here

http://synaps3.blogspot.com/p/dark-eldar-3rd-army.html

IMO GK builds with Coteaz, minimum size henchmen troops in vehicles and a few maxed vehicles sit head and shoulders abover other armys. The other builds, while good, do not have the same power level.

I would disagree. I believe Purifier Spam > Coteaz Henchmen Spam. It is more resilient, and can do more damage. In tradeoff, you loose 3 transports in your elites section, but gain 1-2 venerable dreads.

Thanks for the link on the Grot list.