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mercer wrote:

Sephyr wrote:Agreed. Purifiers + Psyrifledreads are really all that is required to counter absolutely every Eldar list, from what I have seen in my group.

Hanging back? They have greater range, accuracy and durability. You can't even stun or shake them to lessen the incoming fire.

Going forward? Even if you crack the vehicles, you'll be murdered by massed psycannons.

Really, the only strategy is reserving everything and hope it all comes in during turn 5, at which point the game ends.

Yeah, like everything is going to come in turn 5 . Keeping everything in reserve will just make the slaughter easier

Even if I make whatever is on the board run and hide like an abject, pants-wetting coward? I'm yet to see that strategy fail, kind sir!

Well, it's good for -moral- victories, at least....

This is a list Hulksmash helped provide in an extensive WWP/Grot list. Several of us have been play testing with similar lists and with glowing results so far.

Lady Malys-130
2 Haemon w/WWP-170
10 Grots w/Aberration, Liquifier-370
15 Wyches w/Succ., Phantasm, Agoniser, Haywire-220
5 Warriors w/Blaster-60
5 Warriors w/Blaster-60
7 Wracks-70
6 Bikes w/AC, Agoniser, 2xHeat Lance-186
5 Scourges w/2xHeat Lance-134
Beast Pack w/5 BM’s, 10xKymerae, 6 Razorwing-270
Talos w/Chainflails, Heat Lance-110
Talos w/Chainflails, Heat Lance-110
Talos w/Chainflails, Heat Lance-110

2000


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It's only 14 kp, a huge reduction from most DE lists and it has all the tools and resiliency to TAC.

Like my Idol Cpt. Kirk, I don't believe in no win situations

calypso2ts wrote:There is a pretty extensive write up with battle reports on this Grotesque/Haemoculi setup here

http://synaps3.blogspot.com/p/dark-eldar-3rd-army.html

IMO GK builds with Coteaz, minimum size henchmen troops in vehicles and a few maxed vehicles sit head and shoulders abover other armys. The other builds, while good, do not have the same power level.

I am not so sure about that. I think a Crowe-Purifier build can be just as good as a henchmen build. Henchmen builds rely on, besides a sh*tload of shooting, 2 cheap hammer units in the form of battle conclaves. Purifiers are an everyman-unit that can do everything well. The reason why I don't think Purifiers have achieved the same kind of success as the other builds is that many of the successful tournament players prefer to run Draigowing or Coteaz-henchmen instead. But if you really know how to run purifiers (like, ahem, yours truly), I think they will give any GK build a run for their money.

Darklight wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Ok so the biggest thing I don't get while reading this is this: the purifiers aren't in range to start with so why shoot the rhinos? I know they need to go but it looks like the psyrifleman dreads were definently the higher target priority. Even a weapon destroyed raises your chances of survivng next turn. Vect also seemed like a lot when the points could have been spent on reavers or scourges with heat lances. If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list. Shock Prows, haywires, and PGLs also seemed to be a waste. I mean you already have offensive grenades and against this heavy of a shooty list defensive won't help. Haywires will struggle against GK with fortitude, and why tank shock with an almost guaranteed S7 hit coming?

"If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list."

That's the trick, isn't it. The problem is, the dreads are extremely difficult to destroy if the GK player knows what he is doing.
Fortitude is the biggest issue. You can't stun or shake them. If you do manage to get lucky and blow one up, you may reroll if it is venerable.

If they are deployed correctly, it is extremely difficult to get to them with Haywire grenades.

I get that but first off they aren't venerable...at least according to the lists at the top they aren't. Even with cover that doesn't mean he will pass them. Statistically he should pass half but the only way for that to be true is to roll to infinity, so it is possible to pass or fail them all!

Even then having a higher target priority doesn't mean that every lance gets pointed at them. Shoot the rhinos in the way with raiders, then unload with ravagers and blasterborn, there is no cover that way. Fortitude can be failed (and often at the least opportune time for the GK player) so even it isn't a lock. I obviously have the advantage of hind sight here and I clearly was an ocean away at the time the game was being played so I can see what happened and know it didn't work while you didn't have that info. My point is next time you play a GK list like this (maybe even the next time you play mercer!) try focusing on the dreads first. I would never rely on haywires to do much against GK but you can get lucky.

mercer wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:
I don't agree actually. While Purifiers and dreadnoughts are a tough match, I think I should have played more aggressively on turn one (with a more aggressive set up), aiming to destroy 5 Rhinos on turn one with lance and blaster fire and eliminating 2 squads with the venoms. In return I'd have taken heavier casualties - probably all the ravagers and trueborn, likely both raiders too. But if I'd moved the raiders up and assaulted wiuth wyches I could have removed all his troop mobility and probably most of his troops.

Dave, that's exactly what I would have done.

As mentioned to you at the end of the game, I would have moved everything along your table edge and used the tower ruin to block LOS. Truborn bail out and with the Ravagers lance the crap out of the front Rhinos and also Dreadnoughts, each unit firing lance weaponry should hit three shots and score a pen and glance on a Rhino. With luck you should take out all front three Rhinos as you have six lance units firing, splinters then go to work on the Purifiers. I would have kept the Wyches in reserve when playing spearhead, you could have brought them down from your board edge and probably get a assault with them from when they come in, possibly tie up Dreadnoughts in assault as well.

I think doing the above would definitely increase your chances of causing more damage and taking less damage in return, at least it's possible that three Rhinos and the squad inside could have been taken out and maybe a Dreadnought.

Killing the mobility didn't seem to matter that much. If most of the objectives are already close to him then the mobility isn't needed. Rather merecer just had to deal with your mobility. Bringing the wyches from reserve could be nasty if you can charge the dreads as that shuts them down, but by then you have probably already lost most of the things they would target, and then you are in range of the psycannons.

mercer wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:
That's really your problem that you fun face first into a bad match up. Venom spam gets rocked by IG, space wolves, and even shooty necrons, thats most of the 'online' meta so maybe you should stop throwing paper airplanes into the fire and find a hose.

Never had a problem against Space Wolves, beaten typical Wolf Razor-Fang lists several times, though going first with D.E does help, though splinters waste Long Fangs pretty quickly and lances tear through Rhino chassis. Necrons I would say it's about even, I've played against Venom spam with my Necrons and played against Necrons with my Venom spam, it's a equal match up and pretty tough. Though you're totally right about mech I.G, they are evil.

See I've never had much of a problem with wolves. Yeah the longfangs can be annoying, but with first turn they die pretty quickly. Going second without some amazing terrain set up reserve. Yeah you run the risk of coming in piecemeal, but better than being shot to pieces. Necrons aren't bad with one or two dedicated CC units. Hit the annihilation barges first and then work your way down. IG...yeah so mean. Almost squeeked one out...out of about 20 matches.

mercer wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Ok so the biggest thing I don't get while reading this is this: the purifiers aren't in range to start with so why shoot the rhinos? I know they need to go but it looks like the psyrifleman dreads were definently the higher target priority. Even a weapon destroyed raises your chances of survivng next turn. Vect also seemed like a lot when the points could have been spent on reavers or scourges with heat lances. If you destroy the dreads it isn't that bad to deal with the rest of the GK with a venom spam list. Shock Prows, haywires, and PGLs also seemed to be a waste. I mean you already have offensive grenades and against this heavy of a shooty list defensive won't help. Haywires will struggle against GK with fortitude, and why tank shock with an almost guaranteed S7 hit coming?

The Purifiers were in range turn 1, once Dave moved everything towards me. When taking the Rhinos out, he could have splinter'd the G.K if he hadn't moved everything flat out. I would have bailed out the Trueborn and used them to dakka the Dreadnoughts while the Ravagers go for the Rhinos, then splinter cannons waste the Purifiers. I do agree with other things you said i.e phantasm grenade launcher, shock prow etc.

Obviously neither of you were list tailoring as I've seen you run this list before, and it was an uphill battle for him. It just seems that you can wait a turn to deal with the rhinos and purifiers until the more immediate threats are gone. Then just play keep away and bleed one squad at a time. Moving flat out turn one really hurt since it shut down a lot of the shooting for you turn one. Maybe it's just me that I don't like rushing forward and I'd rather bait my opponent into coming forward, but using the sacrificial trueborn and ravagers/raiders, should have been enough to take out three dreads. It felt like having first turn he should have taken the side with more objectives and use screening techniques in case you steal the intiative, but it would have made you move up preventing the castle.

The ability to max out all 6 troop slots for around 350 points (with Razorbacks or Chimeras) is a huge asset. Even that DCA killer squad comes in at around 150 points (so all troops for 450) and leaves behind a huge number of points to bring really killy other options.

While they might not score, you could bring along 3 maxed purifier squads of your own that you can just throw away while the other 6 troops sit on objectives (or sit in reserve safely to drive onto objective).

Focusing on the dreadnoughts first will likely remove one of them. The problem is that doing so then exposes each of the 3 trueborn squads and 3 venoms to the shooting of two static psycannon plus all the interceptors' fire (I assume that the dreadnoughts target two of the ravagers and that the Purifiers cannot do so as they are out of range). That results, reliably, in every Trueborn model dead and 3 venoms destroyed. Given that also two ravagers will be shot down or at least made useless for a turn, That's a much worse trade short and long term than targeting the rhinos which would allow the venoms to cut down Purifiers.

If the dreadnoughts had no cover then yes, targeting them first would make sense as the ravagers could do so and the rest of the army stay out of range. As I said above, I think I'd have been better retreating on turn one so as to deny both of us a turn's shooting. Given the GK were superior in both range and firepower, reducing the number of turns of shooting available would have made some sense. Then striking at his Rhinos so as to concentrate for two turns on eradicating his scoring units whilst holding 3 of mine (the warriors) back would have made it closer in the endgame.

Falling back is a different strategy. One I definently didn't think of. Taking the opposite side of the battlefield would have made it pretty solid. Then he not only has to come to you but now you dictate when the shooting begins.

Ah well I couldn't take the opposite side for 'logistical' reasons. But I do think spending the first turn running away out of range and hiding the Trueborn venoms so they could still move 12" and unload in turn two would have been the way to go. It was in fact my initial thought and I changed my mind for no solid reason (which is always a mistake, I find).

Even with a turn's less shooting and suiciding up the trueborn and targeting the Rhinos, it would have been a tough match up -- a lot would have depended on what Mercer would have done in response.

I didn't have time to read the report in detail, but it appears just as well written as your others. Also, it's gratifying to see you've taken into consideration the suggestions made in your previous thread. I'd still advocate adding something unique to your army though. At the cost of a little competitive redundancy, you might actually find the game more enjoyable by fielding an army with more personality

An eversor assasin would be my suggestion. He's underused and can be very rewarding in the hands of a skilled player. He's also pretty cool and it would be easy to supplement your army with him. But it's just a thought

Red Corsair wrote:This is a list Hulksmash helped provide in an extensive WWP/Grot list. Several of us have been play testing with similar lists and with glowing results so far.

Lady Malys-130
2 Haemon w/WWP-170
10 Grots w/Aberration, Liquifier-370
15 Wyches w/Succ., Phantasm, Agoniser, Haywire-220
5 Warriors w/Blaster-60
5 Warriors w/Blaster-60
7 Wracks-70
6 Bikes w/AC, Agoniser, 2xHeat Lance-186
5 Scourges w/2xHeat Lance-134
Beast Pack w/5 BM’s, 10xKymerae, 6 Razorwing-270
Talos w/Chainflails, Heat Lance-110
Talos w/Chainflails, Heat Lance-110
Talos w/Chainflails, Heat Lance-110

2000


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's only 14 kp, a huge reduction from most DE lists and it has all the tools and resiliency to TAC.

Like my Idol Cpt. Kirk, I don't believe in no win situations

Very interesting. Not the typical list I have seen or played.

Any thoughts on going with 2x 10 Grot squads? You would need to remove a talos, bikes, scourges, and reduce the Wych squad size.

I'm personally a fan of WWP lists. We have a local DE vet who is moving away from mech DE since it is just so vulnerable to GK/ IG/ a long range shooty army who win first turn against them. With WWP you are guaranteed an alpha whether you get first or second turn, unless your opponent reserves everything in which case you are given complete control of the table. The mobility of a well made WWP list is also scary. Beasts, Reavers, Hellions and Scourge can all do their thing the turn they come on the board.

Regarding the Purifiers VS Coteaz debate I lean very heavily towards Coteaz being the better build. Consider:

Coteaz

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Halberd
Rhino w/ searchlight

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer, 2x Halberd
Rhino w/ searchlight

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Warding Stave, 2x Halberd
Rhino w/ searchlight

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Psyfleman

Comes to 1850. You get the counter-assault element in the form of Purifiers (not as many though) and you get better shooting since you have melta and lascannons. Possibly worth exchanging 1 unit of Henchmen and their ride for power armour on all the other Henchmen. They tend to just evaporate when their ride goes. At 2k I hate to think what brutal toys you could add.

@darklight- Yea it is super entertaining and really screws with the current meta lists. I have tried Urien, and two 8 man blobs of grots but you need the two WWP heamis and I find that Malys is really needed or at least really good in this list because she prevents the killer grots from being lashed, NFW, doomed.... the list goes on. Her redeploy is also money. I'd suggest to any DE player to give it a go and mix it up. There aren't a lot of strong builds in DE that are low in KP's, I feel this build is the exception.


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Test that 2x10 though by all means and PM me or post the results, I'd love to hear how your take fairs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lukus83 wrote:I'm personally a fan of WWP lists. We have a local DE vet who is moving away from mech DE since it is just so vulnerable to GK/ IG/ a long range shooty army who win first turn against them. With WWP you are guaranteed an alpha whether you get first or second turn, unless your opponent reserves everything in which case you are given complete control of the table. The mobility of a well made WWP list is also scary. Beasts, Reavers, Hellions and Scourge can all do their thing the turn they come on the board.

Regarding the Purifiers VS Coteaz debate I lean very heavily towards Coteaz being the better build. Consider:

Coteaz

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Halberd
Rhino w/ searchlight

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer, 2x Halberd
Rhino w/ searchlight

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Warding Stave, 2x Halberd
Rhino w/ searchlight

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Henchmen w/ melta
TLLC Razorback

3x Psyfleman

Comes to 1850. You get the counter-assault element in the form of Purifiers (not as many though) and you get better shooting since you have melta and lascannons. Possibly worth exchanging 1 unit of Henchmen and their ride for power armour on all the other Henchmen. They tend to just evaporate when their ride goes. At 2k I hate to think what brutal toys you could add.

I actually agree, I feel like henchmen just do it way more efficiently. That's not to say purifiers can't beat the crap out of henchmen, but rather that overall I feel they will play better more consistently against a wider array of mission types and match-ups do to the fact that their scoring units are so cheap yet lethal AND you can splash purifiers that have the freedom of being let off their chain do to their expandability. Queue Stallone in space film

darklight wrote:
Killing the mobility didn't seem to matter that much. If most of the objectives are already close to him then the mobility isn't needed. Rather merecer just had to deal with your mobility. Bringing the wyches from reserve could be nasty if you can charge the dreads as that shuts them down, but by then you have probably already lost most of the things they would target, and then you are in range of the psycannons.

You're right about the mobility, taking it out wouldn't matter, but D.E have a lot of poison weapons and my high rate of fire comes from the Purifiers when they are static. Once those Rhinos are blown open, then splinter cannons could waste the Purifiers inside and good bye psycannons. If Trueborn would have gone on a suicide run with the Ravagers, then I suspect I would have lost probably all three Rhinos on the front and maybe a Dreadnought or too, then whatever Purifiers from splinter death, lets say two units. That's a massive crippling first turn blow. It then would mean I would have to deal with the Trueborn, Ravagers and now empty Venoms practically sitting on my door step.

You're right about his mobility, shut it down like I did and the objectives are mine.

See I've never had much of a problem with wolves. Yeah the longfangs can be annoying, but with first turn they die pretty quickly. Going second without some amazing terrain set up reserve. Yeah you run the risk of coming in piecemeal, but better than being shot to pieces. Necrons aren't bad with one or two dedicated CC units. Hit the annihilation barges first and then work your way down. IG...yeah so mean. Almost squeeked one out...out of about 20 matches.

You've said it all, dude, my experience has been the same. With Space Wolves you can kill or seriously maul two Long Fang units in a single turn, even if D.E go second it's not too bad as Fangs tend to split fire.

Obviously neither of you were list tailoring as I've seen you run this list before, and it was an uphill battle for him. It just seems that you can wait a turn to deal with the rhinos and purifiers until the more immediate threats are gone. Then just play keep away and bleed one squad at a time. Moving flat out turn one really hurt since it shut down a lot of the shooting for you turn one. Maybe it's just me that I don't like rushing forward and I'd rather bait my opponent into coming forward, but using the sacrificial trueborn and ravagers/raiders, should have been enough to take out three dreads. It felt like having first turn he should have taken the side with more objectives and use screening techniques in case you steal the intiative, but it would have made you move up preventing the castle.

Moving flat out at first doesn't seem a bad idea, but with the amount of shots I can fire while my Purifiers remain static, then there's no way Dave is going to pass all those cover saves. He would have done better holding back and forcing me to move out, which would reduce my first power, or as mentioned suicide the Trueborn.

speedo wrote:I didn't have time to read the report in detail, but it appears just as well written as your others. Also, it's gratifying to see you've taken into consideration the suggestions made in your previous thread. I'd still advocate adding something unique to your army though. At the cost of a little competitive redundancy, you might actually find the game more enjoyable by fielding an army with more personality

An eversor assasin would be my suggestion. He's underused and can be very rewarding in the hands of a skilled player. He's also pretty cool and it would be easy to supplement your army with him. But it's just a thought

Thanks about the report, dude.

I keep flirting with Interceptors. I've looked at my other lists and they either have fast elements which can contest objectives or are fast armies altogether i.e Razor-Angels and DArk Eldar. I have considered the norm Vindicare, which would help with av14, but I know he will be gunned down pretty sharplish.

That is some awesome terrain! Great batrep!

Thanks, dude, glad you like the board. Glad you liked the bat rep too

Nice game.

Alot of Dark Eldar players dont understand what there doing. In order to play Dark Eldar, you need to TAKE OUT threats. His first turn of shooting he had an alpha strike opportunity, and he didnt take it but instead derped around and lost because of it.

It was spearhead. In order for him to win, he needed to keep his ravagers in cover in the backfield. He needed to move witches up and either get a turn 1 assault, or a turn 2 turbo boost assault with vect. He needed to move ALL of his warriors up, get out, and shoot into your dreds. Im not sure if your dreds were within 32", but I would be surprised if they werent.

After his turn 1 , your dreds needed to be gone or atleast damaged somewhat, he also needed to blow up 1 or 2 rhinos and either assault into the stuff or splinter cannon them.

I have no idea why he turbo boosted everything turn 1 except for the Ravagers. That is where he lost the game. He let you alpha strike him. Killing 2 Rhinos, for the first turn of 2000 point dark eldar is bad, and thats why he lost.

Dark Eldar players need to understand that there army needs to be aggressive and alpha strike, or they need to play space marines.

Thanks for the insight, Smitty, Sadly of course we've already gone through the variousoptions in the thread but as always your insight is unique and fascinating.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Thanks for the insight, Smitty, Sadly of course we've already gone through the variousoptions in the thread but as always your insight is unique and fascinating.

Was a turn 1 assault possible? If so why didnt you do it.

Were your blasters within range if you had moved 12 and got out? If so why did you choose to turbo?

No, turn 1 assault wasn't possible as I kept my slowed Rhino formation back, this was to stop turn 1 assault and keep things out of range.

Yes, his blasters would have been in range if he got out, though only against the front Rhinos, which wouldn't have been a bad option.

Just the weakness of V spam.