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So, this happened at a recent tournament, where a BA opponent went first, used his scout move with his Baals and declared he was popping smoke in case I seized. Fine and dandy, in his own turn, he proceeded to shoot, again fine because he went first and I had thought smoke no longer applied, but then in his own turn he claimed a smoke cover save. The TO reviewed the rules and reluctantly agreed that, per RAW, this was allowable, though he didn't like it.

The reasoning appears to be thus: Smoke affects the opponents next shooting phase, smoke is popped in movement and cannot shoot *that* turn, but the FAQ says scout moves count as preceding turn's movement phase. Thus there is not shooting phase in the "scout" move to miss out on, and the effect does not take place until the opponents turn, leaving them free to shoot as normal in their own turn.

Now, I see the logic in this, but I feel it's basically abusing an unintended and unforseen loophole that the core rules did not foresee (as nobody anticipated AV13 battle tanks with Smoke Launchers getting Scout moves...)

It is "basically abusing an unintended and unforseen loophole that the core rules did not foresee"

as a TO I would handle it one of two ways.

#1 vehicles can not shoot whilst they have a smoke cover save.

#2 if you get the first turn popping smoke in the scout move does noting.

I am inclined to go with #1

Although it is RAW, I play it as a cost of doing business.

I blow smoke during scout move? I don't count it on the first turn if I get first turn. It is basically an insurance policy that I don't get seized against or that I don't seize.

I don't think I have ever counted it into my part of the turn, however.

DeathReaper wrote:It is "basically abusing an unintended and unforseen loophole that the core rules did not foresee"

as a TO I would handle it one of two ways.

#1 vehicles can not shoot whilst they have a smoke cover save.

#2 if you get the first turn popping smoke in the scout move does noting.

I am inclined to go with #1

This.

That's basically what I was feeling, though personally I'd lead more towards #2 myself, but I'd be fine with either way, just wanted to see if I was the only one who thought that was a wee bit too gamey or not.

The freaking FAQ says you can, and the rulebook says you can. Sorry, you can pull this nonsense.

Not sure why it's a problem, after all a close vehicle is normally a soon to be dead one.

juraigamer wrote:The freaking FAQ says you can, and the rulebook says you can. Sorry, you can pull this nonsense.

Didn't say you couldn't, just said it felt like an abuse/loophole of the rules that was never intended, just like back in 3E when people claimed Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear, or saying a Leman Russ can fire it's turret weapon even if stunned due to Lumbering Behemoth.

Not sure why it's a problem, after all a close vehicle is normally a soon to be dead one.

Because A: The vehicle doesn't need to be close and B: it's negating the balance mechanic trade-off that Smoke Launchers impose for their utility, allowing them to move around to get choice shots without regard to their own positioning and facing no drawback whatsoever. One will notice that Scouting Valkyries and Vendettas, while mechanically similar, cannot scout and shoot and still claim to be in cover either.

It's also not something that GW typically would allow, or that would even occur to the vast majority of players to even try.

Vaktathi wrote: Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear,

Chaos Space Marine Obliteratiors do not list armor in their wargear either, yet they have a 2+ armor save.

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear,

Chaos Space Marine Obliteratiors do not list armor in their wargear either, yet they have a 2+ armor save.

Right, but Oblits don't actually have Terminator armor either, they just have pretty much every special rule that goes along with it given to them separately. 3E Terminators also had their 2+sv, but without Terminator Armor listed as a wargear item people would argue that they then didn't get the other benefits attendant as well (e.g. 5+ invul, etc).

Remember SOB immolaters with a squad of dominions can do the same trick. (its quite useful)

i think IG with creed on like a chimera or something could do the same thing

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear,

Chaos Space Marine Obliteratiors do not list armor in their wargear either, yet they have a 2+ armor save.

Right, but Oblits don't actually have Terminator armor either, they just have pretty much every special rule that goes along with it given to them separately. 3E Terminators also had their 2+sv, but without Terminator Armor listed as a wargear item people would argue that they then didn't get the other benefits attendant as well (e.g. 5+ invul, etc).

Obliterators get some benefits of terminator armor, relentless, deepstrike, 5+, but I don't think they can use teleport homers? (icons)

Chaos terminators are another story in that they aren't really relentless. They get some of the special rules of relentless like assaulting after shooting, but I believe can not always fire their bolters as if stationary, so no move and shoot 24".

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear,

Chaos Space Marine Obliteratiors do not list armor in their wargear either, yet they have a 2+ armor save.

Right, but Oblits don't actually have Terminator armor either, they just have pretty much every special rule that goes along with it given to them separately. 3E Terminators also had their 2+sv, but without Terminator Armor listed as a wargear item people would argue that they then didn't get the other benefits attendant as well (e.g. 5+ invul, etc).

So where is the 2+ save coming from? Artificer armor LOL!

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear,

Chaos Space Marine Obliteratiors do not list armor in their wargear either, yet they have a 2+ armor save.

Right, but Oblits don't actually have Terminator armor either, they just have pretty much every special rule that goes along with it given to them separately. 3E Terminators also had their 2+sv, but without Terminator Armor listed as a wargear item people would argue that they then didn't get the other benefits attendant as well (e.g. 5+ invul, etc).

So where is the 2+ save coming from? Artificer armor LOL!

The statline.

There's no requirement for wargear to be present to modify a statline.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Terminators technically didn't have Terminator armor since it wasn't listed in their wargear,

Chaos Space Marine Obliteratiors do not list armor in their wargear either, yet they have a 2+ armor save.

Right, but Oblits don't actually have Terminator armor either, they just have pretty much every special rule that goes along with it given to them separately. 3E Terminators also had their 2+sv, but without Terminator Armor listed as a wargear item people would argue that they then didn't get the other benefits attendant as well (e.g. 5+ invul, etc).

So where is the 2+ save coming from? Artificer armor LOL!

The statline.

There's no requirement for wargear to be present to modify a statline.

QFT

Agreed, Heck, technically, only Harlequins, Warlocks, and Farseers have armour in the Eldar codex, and it doesn't even provide an armour save.

Vaktathi wrote: Didn't say you couldn't, just said it felt like an abuse/loophole of the rules that was never intended,

I know man, I'm just saying what the books say. Wound allocation tricks are abuse/loopholes, and there are many others that people use as part of standard play. Doing the scout smoke trick is just one other thing.

rigeld2 wrote:The statline.

There's no requirement for wargear to be present to modify a statline.

So going by that you could model naked Oblits with a 2+ armor save?

The statline represents the model.

The wargear tells us what weapons and armor the models have.

Oblits have no armor, yet they have an armor save.

Not sure why they did not list armor for the Oblits, as plague Marines and others have power armor listed in their entries.

It honestly never occurred to me that obliterators were in terminator armour.

I always just assumed it was crazy metal demon armour hybrid mojo that gave them their saves etc...

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The statline.

There's no requirement for wargear to be present to modify a statline.

So going by that you could model naked Oblits with a 2+ armor save?

Sure. Why not?

The statline represents the model.

The statline or Characteristic Profile has nothing to do with wargear.

The wargear tells us what weapons and armor the models have

Correct. And neither have anything to do with the statline.

Not sure why they did not list armor for the Oblits, as plague Marines and others have power armor listed in their entries.

No idea. Doesn't really matter though - the power armor listing is irrelevant anyway.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The statline.

There's no requirement for wargear to be present to modify a statline.

So going by that you could model naked Oblits with a 2+ armor save?

They could be slaanesh worshippers?

rigeld2 wrote:The statline or Characteristic Profile has nothing to do with wargear.

With the Caveat that the armor save, on a CSM, comes from something outside the model, while the other characteristics are intrinsic to the model itself.

Since the Model is a representation of an actual Chaos Space Marine if we believe the fluff.

These guys are running around somewhere in a galaxy far far away...

Also if you read P.7 under Armor Save, it tells us that most creatures have an armor save based on what kind of armor they are wearing. Which is surely the case for Space Marines.

juraigamer wrote:The freaking FAQ says you can, and the rulebook says you can. Sorry, you can pull this nonsense.

Not sure why it's a problem, after all a close vehicle is normally a soon to be dead one.

Neither of them explicitly state that you can still shoot in your own turn if you've popped smoke during scout, don't make things up.
I'd be inclined to say that vehicles can't shoot while smoke is "popped".

You can use smoke launchers in your Scout move, that's fine. However...

Main rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

There's a pretty good basis there for saying that since that scout move counts as the preceding movement movement phase during the first game turn, if the BA player goes first, the fact that he has (functionally) popped smoke in his preceding movement phase would preclude him from shooting in the first turn with that vehicle.

DeathReaper wrote:It is "basically abusing an unintended and unforseen loophole that the core rules did not foresee"

as a TO I would handle it one of two ways.

#1 vehicles can not shoot whilst they have a smoke cover save.

#2 if you get the first turn popping smoke in the scout move does noting.

#3 Show TFG the exit and ban him from all future events for being a tool.

I am inclined to go with #1

Fixed that for you.

I'm inclined to go with #3

In our group we used the #2 by DeathReaper.
So if BA player has first turn, popping smoke does nothing.
If he goes second, he gains one turn of 4+ cover save for no side effects.

This is completely acceptable for us, because it is comparable to flat-out or turb-boost scout move.

Yes, we know by RAW it should give only advantages...

As pointed out, while this is fine in the rules, the only thing definitively allowing the use of smoke launchers during scout also tells you it counts as the preceding movement phase - meaning that, if you go first, you have 2 back to back movement phases (functionally) and you HAVE popped smoke in the preceding movement phase, meaning you cannot shoot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:the only thing definitively allowing the use of smoke launchers during scout also tells you it counts as the preceding movement phase - meaning that, if you go first, you have 2 back to back movement phases (functionally) and you HAVE popped smoke in the preceding movement phase, meaning you cannot shoot.

RAW you popped smoke in the movement phase before your preceding movement phase, not in your preceding movement phase. If you wanted to interpret it that a movement phase in what the FAQ tells us is considered a seperate turn is counted as a movement phase in the next turn then if you pop smoke in turn 1 I can claim you cannot fire for the rest of the game as you popped smoke in a preceding movement phase.

RAI - no you probably shouldn't do this, it'll be frowned upon in a casual game. RAW - perfectly legal

This is YMDC right? the RAW is clear. How you play it is something entirely different.

Mannahnin wrote:You can use smoke launchers in your Scout move, that's fine. However...

Main rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

There's a pretty good basis there for saying that since that scout move counts as the preceding movement movement phase during the first game turn, if the BA player goes first, the fact that he has (functionally) popped smoke in his preceding movement phase would preclude him from shooting in the first turn with that vehicle.

Smoke says you can not fire in that turn. the Scout Turn. As that is the Preceding movement phase. now Game turn 1 if your opponent goes first you get a 4+ cover save all hunky dory. but if you go first there is no Restriction to you moving and firing in your first Game turn. And as the Wording in Smoke say it stays in effect till the end of your opponents shooting phase, you still have your 4+ cover save.

Also the BA player (or SOB) did not Pop smoke in there Preceding movement phase of Game turn one. they popped smoke in the Scout turn.(phase) which then lifts all restriction of firing when it becomes there turn 1. the FAQ clearly states the scout phase as the preceding phase and you can not shoot that turn. next phase is movement and you have not popped smoke which will not preclude you to the restriction of not firing. (even though you are under the effects of it due to Smoke Launchers wording)

this is RAW not RAI

Compel wrote:It honestly never occurred to me that obliterators were in terminator armour.

I always just assumed it was crazy metal demon armour hybrid mojo that gave them their saves etc...

If memory serves mem correct... Obliterators in the former Chaos Codex has the Demonic Armor which was a demonic gift, Slow and purposeful Rule, and the Demonic Aura also a demonic gift which granted them the 2+/5+ save, along with the ability to fire on the move. They never had terminator armor at any point in the past.

Joey wrote:

juraigamer wrote:The freaking FAQ says you can, and the rulebook says you can. Sorry, you can pull this nonsense.

Not sure why it's a problem, after all a close vehicle is normally a soon to be dead one.

Neither of them explicitly state that you can still shoot in your own turn if you've popped smoke during scout, don't make things up.
I'd be inclined to say that vehicles can't shoot while smoke is "popped".

The rulebook says you can't shoot the turn you pop smoke, and scout moves is a different turn than first turn. Not said, implies.

It's still a manner thing to do, but the book says so, and if I was a BA assault army playing against GK, I'd take everything I could get.