Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sportsmanship scores are for things like this.

Lol really sportsmen scores? I think they are there to make poor sports not win.

Low sportsman ship scores tend to come from the guy who lost.

Not really, it is from the guy who did not enjoy the game. If you enjoyed the game then you dont give low sportsmanship scores. Only a person who is vindictive would give low sportsmanship scores. However if I was playing, even if it didn't matter and he failed all his cover saves this type of rules exploit would really leave a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the game. Especially since it is the first encounter with this guy that I will most likely have had.

Hell I have given low sportsman ship scores when I win, because it was not a fun person to play against.

[quote=Leth
Hell I have given low sportsman ship scores when I win, because it was not a fun person to play against.

I've been doing this with my sisters - I had it done to me early on, learned the trick and never realized it was controversial. It seems a little odd that you get cover and shooting if you go second but not if you go first, but I see how firing while smoked is equally weird. I just always assumed it was an accepted exploit, like wound allocation shenanigans and the like. I'll have to consider whether or not to use it in the future.

It's not controvertial. It's 100% RAW, People just feel upset when they face something they were not prepared for. Something like fear of the unknown. Me I tell my opponent what I am doing before the game giving them the varied applicable rules so they are not surprised. That way they can adjust (or not).

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:It's not controvertial. People just feel upset when they face something they were not prepared for. Something like fear of the unknown.

No it's called being gamey and exploiting something that the original rules were not built for. Many people would not accept this exploit in a "friendly" game.

Joey wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:It's not controvertial. People just feel upset when they face something they were not prepared for. Something like fear of the unknown.

No it's called being gamey and exploiting something that the original rules were not built for. Many people would not accept this exploit in a "friendly" game.

When I pull out my sisters they have no complaints mainly due to the fact they think they are horrid. (i disagree by winning. )

FAQ 1.5 says a Scout move counts as the preceding Movement phase not turn. You have to give it to GW as the wording is quite clever "counts as preceding movement phase" and not previous movement Turn means the scouting unit gets an extra movement phase at the start of THAT turn. This keeps it in the same game turn for the cover effect to work without having to rewrite the rules to allow for a turn before turn 1. There is no turn before turn 1 so this is how GW fixed popping smoke and scouting vehicles. RAW in FAQ 1.5 does not allow this IMHO.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:It's not controvertial. It's 100% RAW, People just feel upset when they face something they were not prepared for. Something like fear of the unknown. Me I tell my opponent what I am doing before the game giving them the varied applicable rules so they are not surprised. That way they can adjust (or not).

It isnt RAW, for the reasons given. "Preceding movement phase" means that you HAVE popped smoke in the preceding movement phase, so may not shoot - its just there were two movement phases, meaning you are allowed to shoot and disallowed from shooting, and "cannot" trumps "may"

juraigamer wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Didn't say you couldn't, just said it felt like an abuse/loophole of the rules that was never intended,

I know man, I'm just saying what the books say. Wound allocation tricks are abuse/loopholes, and there are many others that people use as part of standard play. Doing the scout smoke trick is just one other thing.

Doesn't say I cannot punch my opponent in the face and steal his miniatures or use loaded dice.

He cannot have it both ways - either he gets insurance smoke, 1st turn smoke or can shoot, not all three

nosferatu1001 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:It's not controvertial. It's 100% RAW, People just feel upset when they face something they were not prepared for. Something like fear of the unknown. Me I tell my opponent what I am doing before the game giving them the varied applicable rules so they are not surprised. That way they can adjust (or not).

It isnt RAW, for the reasons given. "Preceding movement phase" means that you HAVE popped smoke in the preceding movement phase, so may not shoot - its just there were two movement phases, meaning you are allowed to shoot and disallowed from shooting, and "cannot" trumps "may"

In the FAQ "preceding movement phase" obviously means "previous movement phase" as it refers to Turbo-boosters which gain cover for the following enemy shooting phase. But do take into account that Smoke Launchers don't actually refer to movement phase at all.

"The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers but will count as obscured in the next enemy Shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save." (Brb, pg 62, Smoke Launchers, emphasis mine)

But as we're talking about Smoke Launchers, real question is: Are Scout moves done on Player Turn 1 (and thus Game Turn 1) or not. Answer is simple: No.

"Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves. Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn." (Brb pg 92, Pitched battle)
All other deployment options exactly same language stating that game Turn 1 begins only after deployment, including scout moves.

Because Scout moves are not done on Turn 1, by RAW there is no penalty for using Smoke Launchers during Scout move. You will not lose a turn of firing even if you have first turn (same as flat out skimmers and turbo boosting bikes) and the vehicle will count obscured no matter who goes first.

Our group doesn't play it like this though, but it is RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phototoxin wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Didn't say you couldn't, just said it felt like an abuse/loophole of the rules that was never intended,

I know man, I'm just saying what the books say. Wound allocation tricks are abuse/loopholes, and there are many others that people use as part of standard play. Doing the scout smoke trick is just one other thing.

Doesn't say I cannot punch my opponent in the face and steal his miniatures or use loaded dice.

He cannot have it both ways - either he gets insurance smoke, 1st turn smoke or can shoot, not all three

Unfortunately, by RAW he gets all three. See my previous post why.

http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/09/rulings-baal-predators-smoke-launchers-and-scout-moves/#more-583 food for thought.

Joey wrote:No it's called being gamey and exploiting something that the original rules were not built for. Many people would not accept this exploit in a "friendly" game.

Then simply play in friendly games. Just like I refuse to play in tournaments that follow the inat faq, one of the worst pieces of their own version of rules lawyering in the 40k universe.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:It's not controvertial. It's 100% RAW

That' doesn't always make it necessarily correct, what was intended, or what anyone wants to play against. RAW isn't always the way the game is meant to be played (again, as in 3E, Terminators not actually having Terminator armor by RAW), GW itself has said so. It's plainly obvious GW didn't intend vehicles to be able to claim the cover save and still shoot. Bypassing such a thing with a RAW loophole is what gets you dinged on Sports. If you ever have to fall back on "but it's RAAAAAW", you're having a sports issue. Using an FAQ loophole that was intended to allow movement-phase abilities to function in scout moves to side-stop that isn't likely what GW intended or how they would want people to play that. Yes, it's RAW, but not really GAP, it's not something most people would pick up on without having read it on an internet forum.


That whole "fear of the unknown" thing is silly, there's "I didn't know that" and then there are "loopholes". It's one thing to run up against an ability you've never seen before. "Wow, I didn't realize that Ravagers could move 12" and fire all 3 Darklances with their Aerial Assault Rule!" It's another when it's a loophole. "Wait...you're trying to claim a cover save in *my* turn after you popped smoke in a Scout move and then shot in your own turn? You're applying an FAQ to two different rules to sidestep a balancing mechanism by RAW?"


One will notice that moving Flat Out for skimmers or Turboboosting for bikes does not let them get the cover save and shoot. Similar mechanics meant to do the same thing but worded slightly differently (because GW can't write consistent rules) and this was not possible at the time either the rulebook or the BA book was released. Given how little playtesting GW typically does, and how close to the next edition these things came together, it's likely they simply never noticed it until later and said "well, it's gone in a few months".

So yes, by RAW by all accounts is possible. Most people won't do it however. I've only come across the one BA player that tried it, none of the others thought it was on the level, just as most IG players don't try to find ways to abuse the Lumbering Behemoth Leman Russ rule.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/09/rulings-baal-predators-smoke-launchers-and-scout-moves/#more-583 food for thought.

A good writeup, but ignores precedent, intent, and simply takes it on the FAQ, Scout and Smoke rules without taking anything else into account (such as similar/equivalent abilities) as a court would.

Luide - it counts as the preceding movement phase, which must be the same player turn.

It in time happens before turn 1, but according to the rules counts as turn 1

...so since its a "different turn" how do you gain a smoke save still? Shouldn't it have been: "if you take your shots, you don't get smoke save"? That's the rule and the rule guy botched the call if you ask me...

Dagger wrote:...so since its a "different turn" how do you gain a smoke save still? Shouldn't it have been: "if you take your shots, you don't get smoke save"? That's the rule and the rule guy botched the call if you ask me...

If you popped smoke in the preceding movement phase you cannot shoot.

When you pop smoke, you count as obscured during the enemy's next shooting phase.

Vaktathi wrote:
One will notice that moving Flat Out for skimmers or Turboboosting for bikes does not let them get the cover save and shoot. Similar mechanics meant to do the same thing but worded slightly differently (because GW can't write consistent rules) and this was not possible at the time either the rulebook or the BA book was released. Given how little playtesting GW typically does, and how close to the next edition these things came together, it's likely they simply never noticed it until later and said "well, it's gone in a few months".

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/09/rulings-baal-predators-smoke-launchers-and-scout-moves/#more-583 food for thought.

A good writeup, but ignores precedent, intent, and simply takes it on the FAQ, Scout and Smoke rules without taking anything else into account (such as similar/equivalent abilities) as a court would.

Incorrect. Bikes have been able to turbo boost during the scout phase and then move, shoot and assault in their first turn and still get a 3+ coversave for turbo boosting in the enemy shooting phase since the very start of 5th Edition by RAW, and this was further endorsed by the FAQ in question, which states the scout move does count as a preceding movement phase, clearing up even that argument. Smoke launchers use the same wording as turbo boosting, ie if (Action) occurs you get (x) coversave in the following enemy shooting phase. Flat out is worded differently and as such, acts differently. Why have they not changed the turbo boost rules in the 4 years we've had 5th edition if this was incorrectly written? where is the FAQ advising you cannot do this? maybe this was how they are supposed to work and it is the flat out rule that is worded incorrectly, and does not function as intended?

The write up does not specifically mention precedent, but it is there in the case of turbo boosting scouts. intent of the author cannot be easily identified without GW answering one way or the other, but as there is no FAQ nerfing this idea, and the difference in wording between smoke launchers and flat out, and the similiarities with turboboosting, then it can certainly argued that there is the intention they are to work in a similar fashion to turboboosting. of course GW themselves do not even follow their own precedents so its all a bit iffy about the intent.

However in cases like this GW tell us to follow the Rules As Written, which clearly allow this.

I don't have my rulebook in front of me right now to look up the bike issue, but I can't recall ever having seen or heard of anyone in 4 years at any event or battle report trying to claim a cover save in an opponents first turn shooting phase if they turbo boosted in a scout move,went first and didn't turbo-boost in their own turn and instead shot/assaulted something.

The reason it works with Turbo-boost is due to the wording: "In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save...".

It does not work for Flat-out because that specifies it has to have moved flat-out in it's last Movement phase. to gain the cover benefits.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Luide - it counts as the preceding movement phase, which must be the same player turn.
It in time happens before turn 1, but according to the rules counts as turn 1

There is one huge problem in that interpretation.
If a vehicle did flat-out scout move, during Turn 1a it cannot cannot shoot nor can its passengers disembark. Not even if it stayed stationary.
I mean, if "preceding movement phase" counts as Turn 1a movement phase, then that vehicle count as having moved flat out during Turn 1a movement phase and all normal restrictions apply.

If you take the the literal interpretation of "preceding" meaning "previous" as like following:
1) Turn 1a Movement phase. Scout moves are considered to have happened in movement phase preceding this one at this point.
2) Turn 1a Shooting phase. At this point, scout moves are considered to have happened AFTER Turn 1a Movement phase (because they count as previous movement phase). So if you moved flat-out during scout move, you cannot shoot. If you stayed stationary during scout move, you can shoot all guns even if you moved flat out during the movement phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Luide - it counts as the preceding movement phase, which must be the same player turn.

It in time happens before turn 1, but according to the rules counts as turn 1

After both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12″ away from any enemy.” BGB p. 76


This to me means that it is before either players turn.

Note the las sentence? THats what I covered

You are ignoring the FAQ, which states it counts as the preceding movement phase.

Luide - note the FAQ only counts Scout as the preceding movement phase; this has no effect on your current movement phase as that has NO requirements relted to other movements - it is all written in relation to that movement phase, nothing else.

Such fun. My favourite is the people who are clearly psychic, and can tell how the designers, usually on the other side of an ocean, 'intended' the game to be played. Fantastic stuff.

The rules for Smoke Launchers clearly, and I MEAN clearly, state that you cannot shoot if you smoked THAT movement phase. Since there is a Movement Phase inbetween, you get the save.

The only controversy here is from people who don't agree with the rule trying to impose their view on others, and ignoring RaW.

Dislike if it you want, cool. I dislike Shunt Punches being illegal, and Codex: Daemons special deployment rules. I don't willy-nilly ignore or change rules that don't work for me.

I'm also not enough of a jerk that I'd refuse to play people because they do something the rules clearly allow them to do...

Final point - As Pug stated, this is something Bikes and Smoke-able vehicles have been able to do since 5th came out, though I can't think of one with that capacity at the time (Dark Angels not being able to Turbo Boost in their Scout moves) - and it has CERTAINLY been the case since the Imperial Guard Codex (the second of this Edition, remember.)

If it hasn't been EXPRESSLY vetoed, in that ENTIRE time, perhaps your passive-aggressive 'rawr it's an exploit' posturing is simply that, and not what the team at GWHQ agree with...

Vaktathi wrote:A good writeup, but ignores precedent, intent, and simply takes it on the FAQ, Scout and Smoke rules without taking anything else into account (such as similar/equivalent abilities) as a court would.

But completely fits the tenant of you make da call.

We don't use precedent. It's not being argued in a court of law. It's being argued in 'you make da call'.

Per RAW, it works. End of story.

You want to argue to change it? Go call GW.

By the way, I'm with you on this. I don't like this at all. But as far as the purpose of this board is, it's a correct ruling.

Actually we do use precedent. But yes, it's RAW.

So are you agreeing that it is an 'extra' movement preceeding the normal phases of Turn 1 (which is how I read FAQ 1.5) or that it is in fact a Turn 0?

The mental leaps people go to in order to justify exploiting loop holes like this is extraordinary. You guys must have very tolerant gaming groups.