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Elessar wrote:Depends on your definition of widespread I suppose.

I've never heard of it until recent weeks, and I've been playing at tournaments and running events all through 5E. Never seen anyone try and pull it until recently.

Where were other Assault Cannon rules?

The old Daemonunters codex, 3 shots only, no Rending, same as all assault cannons until 4E, GW just never updated it for the 3E DH book. Likewise stormshield rules, in 3E it was a 4+ in CC only against 1 opponent. In the 4E books it was changed to just a flat 4+ in CC, in 5E books it was 3++ against everything, so until mid 2010 or so IIRC all of these rules existed simultaneously.

Was there a separate profile in BTs?

It has the same references as it does for dedicated transports (basically just re-iterating the rule from the rulebook at the time as pretty much all the books of that era did), hence why BT's can't use each others dedicated transports either.

I didn't think it was in BTs, never thought of DH tbh. Thanks.

I can remember encountering this tactic as far back as about 3 years ago, give or take a few months. I suppose calling it common would be quite a stretch though.

@Elessar, you cannot get cover saves from a Flamestorm

@Pug et Elessar et al, lets look at the FAQ1.5 wording again as people keep referring back to the rulebook which had an ambiguity that has been fixed.

Hope it's okay to quote sentences direct so apologies to the mods if not.

FAQ1.5 Page 7 the question states "During the first Turn of the game does a Scout move count ..." so this part of the FAQ clearly makes the Scout move part of the first turn (nothing ambiguous there) and then it continues to explain in the question "... does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves ... " and here they explain how to plug it in to the game turn sequence, it counts as an extra preceding movement phase for Turn 1 which has already been clarified, thus deciding what happens to the unit in subsequent 1st Turn phases. All of this happens in Turn 1 as stated in the question. They affirm all of this by answering YES to their own question. This brings us back to the rulebook piece that they felt needed no clarification in that Smoke Launchers prohibit you from shooting in the same turn that you have used them.

Elessar wrote:I didn't think it was in BTs, never thought of DH tbh. Thanks.

Having armies stretch over 3 different editions will have that effect

Quick addition. Nowhere in the Scout rules does it say before the game starts for Scout moves!
What the Scout USR says is "before the first player begins his first turn" (SRB P76), which is an extra activity courtesy of the Scout rule in Turn 1 before the player who won the roll to go first actually does anything that turn. Rules do not state anywhere that there is a prior turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BT FAQ 1.1 fixed the Shields and the Dedicated Transport Vehicles usage issues, POTMS almost (poor old Drop Pods) but we did lose the magic smoke launchers however all this ensures that BTs do indeed rock in V5 :-)

pucadubh wrote:@Elessar, you cannot get cover saves from a Flamestorm

@Pug et Elessar et al, lets look at the FAQ1.5 wording again as people keep referring back to the rulebook which had an ambiguity that has been fixed.

Hope it's okay to quote sentences direct so apologies to the mods if not.

FAQ1.5 Page 7 the question states "During the first Turn of the game does a Scout move count ..." so this part of the FAQ clearly makes the Scout move part of the first turn (nothing ambiguous there) and then it continues to explain in the question "... does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves ... " and here they explain how to plug it in to the game turn sequence, it counts as an extra preceding movement phase for Turn 1 which has already been clarified, thus deciding what happens to the unit in subsequent 1st Turn phases. All of this happens in Turn 1 as stated in the question. They affirm all of this by answering YES to their own question. This brings us back to the rulebook piece that they felt needed no clarification in that Smoke Launchers prohibit you from shooting in the same turn that you have used them.

Aaaaand /thread.

pucadubh wrote:@Elessar, you cannot get cover saves from a Flamestorm

@Pug et Elessar et al, lets look at the FAQ1.5 wording again as people keep referring back to the rulebook which had an ambiguity that has been fixed.

Hope it's okay to quote sentences direct so apologies to the mods if not.

FAQ1.5 Page 7 the question states "During the first Turn of the game does a Scout move count ..." so this part of the FAQ clearly makes the Scout move part of the first turn (nothing ambiguous there) and then it continues to explain in the question "... does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves ... " and here they explain how to plug it in to the game turn sequence, it counts as an extra preceding movement phase for Turn 1 which has already been clarified, thus deciding what happens to the unit in subsequent 1st Turn phases. All of this happens in Turn 1 as stated in the question. They affirm all of this by answering YES to their own question. This brings us back to the rulebook piece that they felt needed no clarification in that Smoke Launchers prohibit you from shooting in the same turn that you have used them.

John, its not stating that the scout move is a part of the first turn. It states...

Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move count as the preceding Movement phase when working out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

It states that if you make a scout move it counts as a movement phase for determining flat out saves and what a vehicle is hit on in CC. These are the only two events which reference the preceding movement phase. It was to stop the argument that the valkyrie moves 24" in a scout move, your opponent (having turn 1a) charges it and states he hits automatically because you haven't had a movement phase yet, so count as stationary. The bit about "during the first turn" is because it is on about shooting or CC attacks, which can only happen once the game has actually started. Scout moves happen before "the first player begins his first turn" which is the start of the game (pg 92 and 93)

Edit:

To make it easier to understand John.

Imagine this scenario. Its Me Vs You, My Airborne IG versus your (IDK) space marines, at a time when the IG codex first came out (and before the FAQ question and answer was released). You have first turn and, before the game begins but after deploying infiltrators, I make my scout moves. I move 24" (flat out) in a direction (doesn't matter which). You then start your turn, do you moves etc. Then you fire your rifle dread at my valkyrie, score 4 hits and 2 pens. I say, "I have a coversave for moving flat out". You say " that only counts if you move flat out in your preceding movement phase, as you haven't had a movement phase yet you cannot get a coversave" By RAW you are completely correct. The FAQ was to state that in your first turn, I do infact get a coversave for moving flat out during a scout move as it counts as a preceding movement phase, which it does admirably. It was not to make a scout move count part of the first turn, which it actually doesn't do.

I still maintain that as it is the start of the game it must be Turn 1 and the way I read FAQ 1.5 thats what it says. Chris you read the words and interpret something different. I think the counts as the preceding movement phase and not turn means smoke launchers work and shooting doesn't. You clearly don't.
The joys of the English langauge and the greys of the 5th Ed ruleset after all this time.

As TO I have a custom of inviting such questions pertaining to rules specific to their play or armies in advance of the competition itself so that I have time to make an informed judgement without the need to be hasty. I recommend that anyone who plans to try this tactic/interpretation (no rants please, there are clearly two opposing interpretations of the same physical words on virtual paper ) should proffer the question in advance of the tourney to their TO as I find I err on the side of caution when faced with unexpected rules queries that I know should have been brought up in advance.

I still disagree with the interpretation that the title of the thread is allowed as per my personal opinion having read and reread the words concerned but can see why the debate exists nonetheless. For those who plan to come to my 2 upcoming tourneys (hopefully the second will have clarity thanks to 6th Ed lol), please don't try this!

My final words on the subject,
I play BAs too, would never use this tactic and feel if that's what it takes to win with BAs then you need more practice with a very good dex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hiya Chris, I had said my last words on the thread as it is going nowhere but your edit came up after I posted and I couldn't be rude to you. I do agree with your example but I still feel there are 2 ways to read that sentence I highlighted after our discussions. I also feel that the January editions of FAQs tried (but clearly failed or failed to be clear at least) to make it a tactical decision to smoke or shoot (even to IDK Marines with POTMS). I stand by my last post mate and know we can at least agree to disagree

pucadubh wrote:I still maintain that as it is the start of the game it must be Turn 1 and the way I read FAQ 1.5 thats what it says. Chris you read the words and interpret something different. I think the counts as the preceding movement phase and not turn means smoke launchers work and shooting doesn't. You clearly don't.

Pitched Battle Deployment pg 92 BRB wrote:
deploy infiltrators and make scout moves.
Start the game! once deployment has finished the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn"

Scouts USR pg 76 BRB wrote:
after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn

The FAQ is not making the Scout move part of the first turn, according to the rules they are done during deployment before the start of the game, and nothing in the FAQ question changes this status. In fact to do so would require an Errata of the Scouts USR stating that it happens after the start of the game, but that would mean that you would need another Errata to fix the deployment options as they state Scout moves occur before the game starts as well. and it is important to note that these would be erratas and not FAQs as they are changing the actual wording of the rules, not just how you should interpret them. Then you have the issue of if it happens during turn 1, how far can the scouting unit move? does it happen in its own special part of the first turn? before or after rolling to seize? etc That'd be even messier that we have it now, and certainly not clearer.

The FAQ in question deals solely with cover saves against shooting attacks and close combat attacks against scouting vehicles during the first turn, because both of these rules require you to determine how fast the vehicle moved in its preceding movement phase. It states that during the first turn of the game (ie player turn 1A, (note that it doesn't say game turn)) player B's forces may gain a cover save if they were (for example) a vehicle that moved flat out during the scout move as they may count this scout move as the "preceding movement phase" which is a requirement to obtain a cover save for moving flat out. If it were not for this FAQ, they would not be able to obtain this coversave (and would also be hit automatically in CC).

Edit:
Bah, John you have to add a bit in at the end. Well ok, I did it first, and I also cannot be rude. I think the RAW is clear that you can do it, and as I mentioned above, I don't think that the FAQ is saying what you think it is. TBH its not that big of a deal, most units should be able to get into a position to both fire and get cover, especially with what amounts to 2 movement phases. Would I play it this way? usually no. against Jan? damn right, us bunnies need all the help we can get lol

It doesn't make it part of Turn One - that's all that matters. If it DID, you couldn't Scout move, then move again.

Okay everyone, what I think we should all do is calm down and.....feth it, APPEAL TO RIDICULOUS FALLACY!!!

Elessar wrote:It doesn't make it part of Turn One - that's all that matters. If it DID, you couldn't Scout move, then move again.

That fallacy has already been debunked. The movement phase allowance to move (oddly enough) doesnt make any reference to how far you have already moved that turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Elessar wrote:It doesn't make it part of Turn One - that's all that matters. If it DID, you couldn't Scout move, then move again.

That fallacy has already been debunked. The movement phase allowance to move (oddly enough) doesnt make any reference to how far you have already moved that turn.

Yes, but you haven't managed to debunk any of the other issues regarding it:
I reiterate my case:
There are only two options. Scout move either count as being done in Turn 1 or it doesn't count as being done in Turn 1:
1) Scout move is considered to have been done on Player Turn 1 for all purposes. This means "Scout move counts as preceding movement phase" is interpreted as"Scout move counts as Turn 1 Movement phase".
2) Scout move is NOT considered to have been done on Player Turn 1. Instead, Scout move counts as movement phase preceding Player Turn 1, effectively working as if they had been done on Turn 0, with Turn 0 having no other phases.

Option 1 is required if one wants to argue that Smoke Launchers used during Scout move give any penalties, as the penalties only apply during same turn.
Ramifications of option 1:
1) If player 1 has non-fast vehicle move cruising speed during Scout move, that vehicle cannot fire weapons during shooting phase ."The number of weapons a vehicle can fire in the Shooting phase depends on how fast it has moved in that turn's Movement phase, as detailed below." "Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire" (Brb, pg 58). May not shoot trumps may shoot.
2) If player 1 has skimmer go flat out during scout move and then moves combat speed on Turn 1 movement phase, skimmer is destroyed if it is immobilised in next enemy shooting phase as "it moved flat out in its last turn" (Brb, pg 71)
3) If player 1 has bikes turbo-boost during Scout move, they're subject to all Turbo-boost penalties during Turn 1 even if they stay still during Turn 1 movement phase. "they cannot move through difficult terrain. shoot, launch assaults or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn" (Brb, pg 76)

Option 2 means that there is no downside using Smoke Launchers during Scout move. Note that same applies for Turbo-boosting scout moves for bikes, they get 3+ cover for next enemy shooting phase without suffering from any penalties.

I do agree that one can argue that the "preceding" in FAQ could be interpreted to mean Player Turn 1 movement phase during Turn 1 shooting phase and after, but it is contrived interpretation.
Interpreting "counts as preceding Movement phase" to mean "counts as Movement phase preceding first turn" on other hand is far more internally consistent view and doesn't cause issues with other rules.

I'm not sure what my opinion is on this yet. But one thing I was thinking of is that if you're going to be very explicit about RAW, then it says smoke launchers can be used "once per game".

"Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves. Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn." (Brb pg 92, Pitched battle)

So if you do your scout move before starting the game, then how can you use a once-per-game ability before the game starts? This is being very RAW of course.

Nivek5150 wrote:I'm not sure what my opinion is on this yet. But one thing I was thinking of is that if you're going to be very explicit about RAW, then it says smoke launchers can be used "once per game".

"Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves. Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn." (Brb pg 92, Pitched battle)

So if you do your scout move before starting the game, then how can you use a once-per-game ability before the game starts? This is being very RAW of course.

I guess if you don't think deployment is 'part of the game', then you have a point. I consider deployment part of the game.

I do too, but I don't think it's so far-fetched to consider it set-up and not part of the game itself.

Nivek5150 wrote:So if you do your scout move before starting the game, then how can you use a once-per-game ability before the game starts? This is being very RAW of course.

FAQ explicitly allows using Smoke launchers during scout move.
So funnily enough, your question should be "As scout move is done before game starts, shouldn't Baal Predator should be able to use Smoke Launchers also during normal turns?".
It is very weak argument though, with the FAQ about Scout move counting as a movement phase. I doubt that no-one argues movement phase is not part of the game...

Not gonna lie, I like the idea of Baal Predators getting a second Smoke use...but it'd be stupid.