Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
A friend of mine has been freaking out about the possibility of a Cherynobleesque catastrophe happening at the Fukushima reactor in Japan. Doomsayers are predicting a mass extinction event. What say ye Dakkanauts?
It’s been two weeks since I wrote my first piece for End the Lie about Fukushima being a possible mass extinction event, and still no progress to report.
[Editor’s note: it is worth pointing out that the attention Christina’s article received was unprecedented in the history of End the Lie.]
Although, there was a somewhat promising appeal made on April 30, when seventy-two Japanese Non-Governmental Organizations sent an urgent request to the United Nations and Japanese government urging immediate action to stabilize the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant Unit 4 spent nuclear fuel. The letter was also endorsed by numerous nuclear experts.
The letter warned the UN and Japanese government that if an earthquake or other event were to cause this pool to drain, a catastrophic radiological fire could ensue.
The letter urged the United Nations to organize a Nuclear Security Summit to take up the crucial problem.
The letter stated that the United Nations should establish an independent assessment team, and coordinate international assistance to stabilize reactor 4′s spent fuel pool in order to prevent a radiological release with potentially catastrophic consequences.
Letters were sent to both UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda, the latter asking that Japan ask immediately for the UN’s help.
So that’s good news.
Now, we just have to wait for the UN to have a meeting about it, form some committees, investigate, send a team to Japan, schedule another meeting, go over the committee results, then maybe form some more committees, go over more results, then send a response, and then finally implement a plan of action, if that is what they even decide to do in the end.
And of course all that is dependent on if the spent fuel pool hasn’t fractured, fallen, caught fire, or exploded by then.
For a “downwinder” of a spent fuel pool fire or explosion and large scale radiological release (or in the case of Fukushima, a “northern hemisphere resident”) you will need anywhere from 2 weeks to a 2 year supply of food, water, toiletries, medications, diapers, pet food, and a designated area for pets to go to the bathroom inside your shelter, among many other things.
The amount of time spent sheltering in will vary greatly on a wide array of variables, such as, how long it takes to put the nuclear fuel fire out, or burn itself out.
That being said, nuclear fuel is essentially “a fire that never stops burning.”
Don’t worry about stockpiling gas, you won’t be going anywhere. That is of course if you lack the financial resources to leave everything behind and bug out to the southern hemisphere.
It may be advisable to have weapons in case your neighbors run out of supplies, and want yours.
So essentially, you will need all the same things you would for a collapse of the economy, it’s just that you won’t be able to go outside.
As a downwinder, one of the only differences in your “shelter” will be the further down you go into the ground, the better off you will be due to gamma rays.
And speaking of gamma rays, in Arnie Gundersen’s recent interview with KGO Radio, he said in regards to spent fuel pool 4:
Gamma rays inside reactor 2
“Let’s assume that it didn’t fall, but went dry a hundred feet in the air, it would be a beacon, but instead of a beacon of light, it would be a beacon of radiation, and bathe the site in high levels of radiation. That’s not something that you want because it would make work on other units darn near impossible…The gamma rays, forget the particles that get caught in your lungs, but the gamma rays would go up and bounce off air molecules and come down as a shine of radiation over the site, and it would go right through those suits and the guys would be exposed from the ‘sky shine’ …”
So let’s talk about that for a minute.
When I wrote my first piece for End the Lie “Fukushima is falling apart: are you ready?” I withheld some important information. Sort of like Tepco always does. They feed you little bits of information here and there, because they knew you couldn’t take it all at once.
The real danger with this precarious spent fuel pool situation is not just the spent fuel pool in reactor 4. It’s all the reactors, and all the spent fuel pools, including the granddaddy common spent fuel pool which is only about 50 meters from reactor 4.
If the spent fuel pool goes up, the radiation release would be so high that the workers would have to abandon the site, which means no one is holding the hoses watering down everything and keeping it from going up in one giant fire or explosion or radioactive cloud of death.
If the wind blows south to the Daini Plant, they would have to abandon that site. If blows north to Onagawa, they would have to abandon that site, and so on and so on.
Need some verification of this?
Japan’s former Ambassador to Switzerland, Mr. Mitsuhei Murata, was invited to speak at the Public Hearing of the Budgetary Committee of the House of Councilors on March 22, 2012, on the Fukushima nuclear power plants accident.
Before the Committee, Ambassador Murata strongly stated that if the crippled building of reactor unit 4 – with 1,535 fuel rods in the spent fuel pool 100 feet (30 meters) above the ground – collapses, not only will it cause a shutdown of all six reactors but will also affect the common spent fuel pool containing 6,375 fuel rods, located some 50 meters from reactor 4.
In both cases the radioactive rods are not protected by a containment vessel. Indeed, they are open to the air, which is quite dangerous.
This would certainly cause a global catastrophe like we have never before experienced.
He stressed that the responsibility of Japan to the rest of the world is immeasurable. Such a catastrophe would affect us all for centuries.
Ambassador Murata informed us that the total number of the spent fuel rods at the Fukushima Daiichi site excluding the rods in the pressure vessel is 11,421 (396+615+566+1,535+994+940+6375).
As the eminent German physicist Dr. Hans-Peter Durr said ten months ago, if the spent fuel pool spills, we will be in a situation where science never imagined we could be.
And Former U.N. adviser Akio Matsumura – whose praises have been sung by Mikhail Gorbachev, was told that if the fuel pool at unit 4 collapses or the water spills out, so much radiation will spew out for 50 years that no one will be able to approach Fukushima.
It gets, if you can believe it, just a little worse. Because you see, if no one in the path of this plume can leave their houses, or go to school, or go to work and of course some of us work – you guessed it – at nuclear plants in the United States and in Canada and in Europe.
Well, I’m sure you can see where that is heading.
The other option is, that our wonderful sources of nuclear power could all be shut down in advance, which means you’d be smart to add all the items you could possibly need for 2 weeks to 2 years without electricity to your supply list.
Or, make a reservation at your friendly neighborhood FEMA camp instead. This is the reality of our choice to let nuclear power into our lives. And you thought we were FUBAR just from the one little spent fuel pool?
Albert Einstein said that nuclear power would eventually kill its users. It appears Einstein was right again.
Whatever sense of urgency you had about this situation in the past few weeks, multiply that by 104 or so, if not more.
Call, post, email, protest, and do whatever it takes to get someone to listen.
In the meantime mitigate for radiation exposure, and keep sending pictures of mutated flowers, trees, fruit, and vegetables.
Economic collapse would be a walk in the park in comparison to what humanity is facing with Fukushima. At least, you could have one there if you wanted to. Just don’t pick the mutated dandelions.
Please send mutation images to christinax4@yahoo.com. Shoot at the highest resolution possible, and include your name, location, and date the mutation was found, for proper credit if the images are published. If it is from store-bought produce, include the location where it was grown and purchased. The more information you provide, the better you will be helping the rest of us.
Please help Christina purchase a spectrometer in order to get the most accurate radiation readings and thus get you the most precise information possible by shopping through her Amazon link or donate directly via PayPal to fukushimafacts@gmail.com. Keep in mind, this is expensive equipment and it is the only way that specific isotope readings can be obtained from food items.
Minor editing by Madison Ruppert
Christina Consolo is a former clinical researcher supervisor with NIH credentialing; a former Member-at-Large for the Board of Directors, Ophthalmic Photographers’ Society; A peer reviewer for the Journal of Ophthalmic Photography; She has written, published, and contributed to numerous scientific research in retinal imaging and ophthalmogy for the past 24 years; She is also an award-winning biomedical photographer and maintains several websites to teach people about radiation, mitigation, and other nuclear issues. She is also the host of “Nuked Radio” Tuesdays & Thursdays from 12-1:00 pm EST on the Orion Talk Radio Network.
For more info including mitigation for radiation exposure, please visit FukushimaFacts.com, where you can sign up to receive Fallout Forecasts on Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
Kilkrazy wrote:Chernobyl sent clouds all over Europe and Asia.
Which caused food contaminations even in Germany.
Of course, the public was only informed decades later.
As I mentioned in another thread, the problem with radioactivity is that there are no "safe" levels. The radiation already present in nature (by exposure to the sun, etc.) is already bad enough for us, anything more is simply like smoking three cigarettes a day instead of two.
Although this is by no means reason to panic (after all, even many heavy smokers live long lives) I think that even a minor increase in exposure should not be underestimated. Any little bit has the potential to "hurt" your cells and DNA more.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
I just thought it was kind of funny. My friend was tripping out ranting about how we're all going to be dead and the land will be blighted and the oceans shall run green with waste and blah blah blah.
It's definitely not a good thing, but I don't think it's going to be a mass extinction event like these guys are saying.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
The level of fear-mongering and hysteria surrounding the Fukushima reactor is just horrific. Tens of thousands of people died in the Tsunami. That's the real trajedy. Instead we get "Oh the noes! Nuk-u-lar power is the evils!!!1".
I think the first step to developing well informed opinions on the world is to stop reading websites called things like End the Lie.
In other news, radiation is a highly technical subject with many complex, interacting factors. Unfortunately, all most of us know about it is 'radiation sucks' and 'Chernobyl was really bad', which means anyone that wants to terrify people and ride on the wave of activism can just spout a load of technical gibberish and conclude that something is really terrifyingly radioactive and deadly, and there's not much we can do to unpick their technical gibberish.
Personally, I'm going to figure that since people who are experts in nuclear science aren't freaking the hell out and making lots of noise about this, the stuff in that End the Lie piece is probably not very true.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
A lot of you seem to miss the wide middle ground between 'everything is fine', and 'we are all doomed'.
Fukushima may be more damaged than current estimates as it is very hot inside and the true damage has not been inspected, nor can it be. If there are structural faults that worsen over time a long term leak is possible. This can occur on any scale.
However while it is unlikely that the reactor will 'collapse' as it is well built, it is equally unlikely to be completely tight. I expect some degradation over time and I expect it will be a problem. A sarcophagus may be necessary.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
We (UK) have people from our nuclear industry assisting the Japanese with the mess that is Fukushima, one of whom is a good friend of mine.
There is no danger of a catastrophic event of the type mentioned in the original post. Things are, however, apparently 'significantly different to the official line'. He can't tell me any more or any specifics as he is bound by the official secrets act.
I'd love to know what is actualy going on though.
Kilkrazy wrote:Chernobyl sent clouds all over Europe and Asia.
Which caused food contaminations even in Germany.
Of course, the public was only informed decades later.
That's probably why modern Europe is a nuclear wasteland.
Nuclear power is completely safe, just ask the thousands of coal miners who die every year. Or the people who choke to death on smog in the third world.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
Wow, it is almost as if the writer of that 'article' had some kind of agenda against nuclear power/to get more hits for the site...
I only made it part way through before the hyperbole exploded, filling the internet full of biasising blogiation and killing all computer users in the northern hemisphere, causing all the luddites to be left without anyone to run society for them, leading to the collapse of the developed world...
My sis works in the Nuclear Industry. As far as she knows, and bearing in mind the events in Japan were examined through a microscope by Nuclear companies the world over, the 'type' of reactor that was used in the Fukushima plant makes any kind of 'meltdown' in the style of Chernobyl impossible. Like, physically impossible (because of the laws of physics and all that).
SilverMK2 wrote:Wow, it is almost as if the writer of that 'article' had some kind of agenda against nuclear power/to get more hits for the site...
I only made it part way through before the hyperbole exploded, filling the internet full of biasising blogiation and killing all computer users in the northern hemisphere, causing all the luddites to be left without anyone to run society for them, leading to the collapse of the developed world...
Fukushima disaster sparked an 'anti-atomic industry' movement here in Thailand, While at least 3 nuke plants are planned in Isaan region. all are faced with protest when the construction process IS about to begin. that was during the previous government.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote:My sis works in the Nuclear Industry. As far as she knows, and bearing in mind the events in Japan were examined through a microscope by Nuclear companies the world over, the 'type' of reactor that was used in the Fukushima plant makes any kind of 'meltdown' in the style of Chernobyl impossible. Like, physically impossible (because of the laws of physics and all that).
So, there we go!
A fission reactor in Fukushima was built by American technology. which Military fission reactor (one that creates nuke bombs) and Civil fission reactor (one that generates heat for steam-powered turbine power generator) are separated ones. while in Soviets. a reactor for power plant may be used for nuke bomb making facility.
2c
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 14:18:04
Fukashima was old tech, and if built today would have a failsafe of a piece of ice constantly kept cool, if the power had gone out the ice would have melted, the reactor contents would have gone into a cooling chamber and there would have been no meltdown.
We should still spend more on researching fusion. But nuclear is, even with the tragedies of Chernobyl and Fukushima, far safer than coal, as it doesn't kill a million people a year.
But still Chernobyl was bad, they had deformed babies, and cows with two heads, and trees growing upside down and all sorts of crazy things happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 14:24:53
dæl wrote:Fukashima was old tech, and if built today would have a failsafe of a piece of ice constantly kept cool, if the power had gone out the ice would have melted, the reactor contents would have gone into a cooling chamber and there would have been no meltdown.
We should still spend more on researching fusion. But nuclear is, even with the tragedies of Chernobyl and Fukushima, far safer than coal, as it doesn't kill a million people a year.
But still Chernobyl was bad, they had deformed babies, and cows with two heads, and trees growing upside down and all sorts of crazy things happen.
WHAT! are you saying that there's 'Brahmin' there around Chernobyl? deformed babies and 'mutated' 'tards are confirmed.
If i remember rightly the biggest concern with Chernobyl was the reactor falling down onto the water table, which was stopped by a massive sacrifice of emergancy workers lives, knowning the dose they where taking would be fatal.
This does seem to be scare mongering, although if anyone thinks our goverments would actually tell us about a serious concern that could be catistrophic to the population, they are sadly kidding themselves.
If all the northern leaders suddenly go on holiday into the southern hemisphere, it time to panic.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
dæl wrote:Fukashima was old tech, and if built today would have a failsafe of a piece of ice constantly kept cool, if the power had gone out the ice would have melted, the reactor contents would have gone into a cooling chamber and there would have been no meltdown.
We should still spend more on researching fusion. But nuclear is, even with the tragedies of Chernobyl and Fukushima, far safer than coal, as it doesn't kill a million people a year.
But still Chernobyl was bad, they had deformed babies, and cows with two heads, and trees growing upside down and all sorts of crazy things happen.
WHAT! are you saying that there's 'Brahmin' there around Chernobyl? deformed babies and 'mutated' 'tards are confirmed.
Actual two headed cow was in the US it seems, found these though
H.B.M.C. wrote:The level of fear-mongering and hysteria surrounding the Fukushima reactor is just horrific. Tens of thousands of people died in the Tsunami. That's the real trajedy. Instead we get "Oh the noes! Nuk-u-lar power is the evils!!!1".
To be fair, tens of thousands of people are born anew every year. It's horrible, but population numbers will grow again. However, if these people are born with a lower lifespan, deformities and/or sterility, they will be punished for generations, for mistakes made by their forefathers.
It's less the amount of people currently affected by the incident, but that Japan will have to deal with the results for centuries or millennia to come, depending on which of the leaked material's half-life you'd be looking at.
And Japan is punished twice here due to the small area it has available for settlement and agriculture.
dæl wrote:Fukashima was old tech
Heh, that's what they said about Chernobyl before Fukushima happened. "Nooo, it totally cannot happen again. Today's power plants are totally safe, we took care to implement a million safety systems. Trust the lobby, they know what they're talking about!"
Sorry, but these people have kept lying for decades. Fukushima failed not (only) because it was "old tech" (like a lot of other nuclear plants still in operation, for example this one in the US) but because the company wanted to save money. Just like any other corporation.
And if you think that Chernobyl and Fukushima have been the only times something went wrong, then you've missed out on a lot of reports of smaller incidents that happened in nuclear power plants around the globe - as well as how their operators continuously attempt to cover them up. I'm assuming the near-meltdown in Sweden is already forgotten these days, too.
Wake up. Nuclear power is a business, and saving money left and right is what makes a company successful, safety and human lives be damned. Why do you think most of the deaths in the coal mining industry happen? This is no different.
Nuclear power plants cannot even be insured because of the cost, so the operators know that it's an "all or nothing" deal for them. Might as well save a few bucks and pray it all works out. Only problem is, if something goes wrong it's an entire country that has to suffer the consequences - both in taxpayer money as well as a decline in health.
Also, seriously, when you count the coal miner deaths as casualties in the debate, you must do the same for the people who die due to the mining of uranium (etc). Coal miner deaths are a common argument brought forward by the lobby to point fingers, but don't you find it strange that they rarely talk about uranium mining? Do people think this stuff grows in the plants?
"South of the Pandora mine, in Monticello, Utah, a uranium-processing mill operated through World War II until 1960. Children at the time would play in the tailings piles and drink water from the millponds. People living in the shadow of the mill knew not to hang laundry on windy days because their linens would turn yellow from the mill's dust. Now, 600 cases of cancer -- a number that is growing each year -- have been confirmed among current and former Monticello residents. The town has a population of just under 2,000. The Utah Department of Health has finally labeled what is occurring in Monticello as a cancer cluster that does not appear to be a random occurrence."
But hey, as long as the cash keeps flowing, right?
Lynata wrote:
Sorry, but these people have kept lying for decades. Fukushima failed not (only) because it was "old tech" (like a lot of other nuclear plants still in operation, for example this one in the US) but because the company wanted to save money. Just like any other corporation.
And if you think that Chernobyl and Fukushima have been the only times something went wrong, then you've missed out on a lot of reports of smaller incidents that happened in nuclear power plants around the globe - as well as how their operators continuously attempt to cover them up. I'm assuming the near-meltdown in Sweden is already forgotten these days, too.
Wake up. Nuclear power is a business, and saving money left and right is what makes a company successful, safety and human lives be damned. Why do you think most of the deaths in the coal mining industry happen? This is no different.
I absolutely agree, all power stations should be nationalised as private companies will always place private concerns ahead of public ones. But this isn't just a nuclear problem, look at fracking and the fact it might cause earthquakes.
Lynata wrote:
Sorry, but these people have kept lying for decades. Fukushima failed not (only) because it was "old tech" (like a lot of other nuclear plants still in operation, for example this one in the US) but because the company wanted to save money. Just like any other corporation.
And if you think that Chernobyl and Fukushima have been the only times something went wrong, then you've missed out on a lot of reports of smaller incidents that happened in nuclear power plants around the globe - as well as how their operators continuously attempt to cover them up. I'm assuming the near-meltdown in Sweden is already forgotten these days, too.
Wake up. Nuclear power is a business, and saving money left and right is what makes a company successful, safety and human lives be damned. Why do you think most of the deaths in the coal mining industry happen? This is no different.
I absolutely agree, all power stations should be nationalised as private companies will always place private concerns ahead of public ones. But this isn't just a nuclear problem, look at fracking and the fact it might cause earthquakes.
It does cause Quakes...
And yes, there have been mutations because of Chernobyl...
Their was a major book released about it and documenting the mutations in the last few years
Not according to the gas companies that want to start using it extensively in Britain. Could they be lying to make money while endangering thousands of people?
