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2012/05/30 15:25:38
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
We are going to run out of fossil fuels, and even if we weren't they aren't good for the planet and we need to move on to practices that secure not only our accustomed, high energy, way of life but also the future of our planet. What steps should we be taking?
I personally believe that geothermal is underused. Also in countries with the appropriate climate concentrated solar seems a great option (and Archimedes Death Rays are just cool).
Nuclear fusion doesn't seem that far away now with working reactors in South Korea and the UK, they just don't yet put out enough power to be viable, and the reaction is unstable I believe.
What are peoples opinions on where we go from here?
2012/05/30 15:42:55
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
I've seen a report on NHK a few months back where they talked about an institute in Japan that has invented a supercooled "energy pipeline" with which you could basically transfer power from solar plants in Africa to the rest of the world with nearly no loss due to distance - which I think is an awesome thing that opens up a lot of new possibilities!
The general idea was that the temparature inside the pipeline is lowered to a level where the energy faces less reistance travelling through the cable (a phenomenon known as superconductivity), and less resistance means fewer power is lost.
The Japanese have teamed up with Algeria for construction already.
My personal plan for an "impending" energy crisis is to lie very still and slowly be decomposed by maggots and bacteria until there is nothing left, because by the time this "impending" energy crises actually happens, I'll be long dead...
2012/05/30 15:58:12
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Superconductors will solve a lot of problems, I was given to understand they only work at really low temperatures, like approaching absolute zero low. That project seems brilliant though, just the type of new thinking needed for this problem.
Thorium reactors look pretty useful too, could install one every few streets and it would be perfectly safe and last for thousands of years.
2012/05/30 16:18:44
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
How are we going to run out of resources?
We have enough coal/oil for the foreseeable future. Alternatives are available, it's just not economical until the price of fossil fuel rises.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/05/30 16:22:02
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Joey wrote:How are we going to run out of resources?
We have enough coal/oil for the foreseeable future. Alternatives are available, it's just not economical until the price of fossil fuel rises.
Shhhhh! If the PC leftists don't bring this "scare" up once in a while, then how can they scam all those clean energy government subsidies?!
2012/05/30 16:24:04
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
@Joey do you not think it better to start implementing alternatives and thus bringing the price down with R&D before we reach the point at which fossils become economically unviable? You mentioned in the Fukushima thread about the amount we pay Russia, now yes we do now have the Falklands reserves, but if we instead spent the money we would extracting them on researching Thorium or on the Tokamak fusion reactor we would be far better off as we would not need to replace it a few decades down the line.
@Kilkrazy Well energy companies when market prices go up will raise their prices, and when market prices go down, well they raise their prices too. I didn't realise that 10% of the country could not afford to heat their house though, thats appalling when you see the profits of the companies.
@PhantomViper "Unclean" energy is getting larger subsidies than clean.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/30 16:30:36
2012/05/30 16:30:41
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Why do you think the hippy tree hugging nimbys are going to allow you to have a nuclear reactor in every neighborhood?
Didn't some court in the UK just rule that you can't beven have windmills because they impede the scenery? Won't someone think of the spotted snail darter! It has rights!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 16:33:40
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
High carbon emissions aren't good for the human population of the planet. But, Earth itself is rather indifferent.
And, all this carbon is actually rather beneficial for nature. It provides plenty of food for plant life, and the increased temperatures allow for a longer growing season.
Things like Polar Bears are screwed, but all that life that lives in the tropics or the oceans (which is most of life in general) is thriving.
And, that doesn't even mention the fact that if this energy waste we're doing kills us off, it will be VERY good for nature in general.
So, no, burning fossil fuels isn't bad for the environment. It's bad for people. Now, stop being selfish and go burn some coal!
High carbon emissions aren't good for the human population of the planet. But, Earth itself is rather indifferent.
And, all this carbon is actually rather beneficial for nature. It provides plenty of food for plant life, and the increased temperatures allow for a longer growing season.
Things like Polar Bears are screwed, but all that life that lives in the tropics or the oceans (which is most of life in general) is thriving.
And, that doesn't even mention the fact that if this energy waste we're doing kills us off, it will be VERY good for nature in general.
So, no, burning fossil fuels isn't bad for the environment. It's bad for people. Now, stop being selfish and go burn some coal!
I like this argument.
Approved
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/05/30 16:38:14
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Frazzled wrote:Why do you think the hippy tree hugging nimbys are going to allow you to have a nuclear reactor in every neighborhood?
Didn't some court in the UK just rule that you can't beven have windmills because they impede the scenery? Won't someone think of the spotted snail darter! It has rights!
Thorium is a different beast to uranium. Much safer, doesn't produce as much waste and is much harder to weaponise.
And yeah, Britain does have an issue with wind power, because its not pretty, but the Prime Minister did put a turbine on 10 Downing Street.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grakmar wrote:
dæl wrote:they aren't good for the planet
That's simply not true.
High carbon emissions aren't good for the human population of the planet. But, Earth itself is rather indifferent.
And, all this carbon is actually rather beneficial for nature. It provides plenty of food for plant life, and the increased temperatures allow for a longer growing season.
Things like Polar Bears are screwed, but all that life that lives in the tropics or the oceans (which is most of life in general) is thriving.
And, that doesn't even mention the fact that if this energy waste we're doing kills us off, it will be VERY good for nature in general.
So, no, burning fossil fuels isn't bad for the environment. It's bad for people. Now, stop being selfish and go burn some coal!
If we wish to end up like Venus then yes its all good, I, and the polar bears, would rather not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 16:40:14
2012/05/30 16:43:30
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:
@PhantomViper "Unclean" energy is getting larger subsidies than clean.
That article is a misleading piece of gak! All the subsidies that they are talking about are aimed at preventing higher cost of energy to the final consumer, they don't make any distinction to the matter in which the energy is produced.
In the United States, the federal government has paid US$24 billion for energy subsidies to support R&D for fossil fuels from 1973 to 2003. During this same timeframe, renewable energy technologies and energy efficiency received a total of US$26 billion
Considering that Fossil Fuels account for 85% of the energy produced in the US and renewable energy accounts for 14% (where the hell did that last 1% went?), what money do you reckon was better spent?
2012/05/30 16:47:00
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:If we wish to end up like Venus then yes its all good, I, and the polar bears, would rather not.
We won't end up like Venus. There's simply not enough greenhouse gases to create that environment on Earth.
We very well could melt the ice caps, flood large portions of human civilization, and turn the Earth into a hot, sticky swamp. But, that's about as "bad" (still very good for life in general, just bad for humans) as it could get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 16:47:18
dæl wrote:
@PhantomViper "Unclean" energy is getting larger subsidies than clean.
That article is a misleading piece of gak! All the subsidies that they are talking about are aimed at preventing higher cost of energy to the final consumer, they don't make any distinction to the matter in which the energy is produced.
Direct payments to producers, to expand production and keep their selling prices down, and to consumers, so they can afford the prices, are the most obvious (not necessarily numerous) form of subsidy. But there are others.
Governments should not subsidise companies that are making the profits that they are, fact. Otherwise the customer is still paying high bills but doing it through tax.
In the United States, the federal government has paid US$24 billion for energy subsidies to support R&D for fossil fuels from 1973 to 2003. During this same timeframe, renewable energy technologies and energy efficiency received a total of US$26 billion
Considering that Fossil Fuels account for 85% of the energy produced in the US and renewable energy accounts for 14% (where the hell did that last 1% went?), what money do you reckon was better spent?
What on researching something new that has to take over, or on something that has been around for a century? Hmmm... I would say R&D of something neither researched or developed would generally cost more, don't you think?
2012/05/30 16:56:34
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Frazzled wrote:Why do you think the hippy tree hugging nimbys are going to allow you to have a nuclear reactor in every neighborhood?
Didn't some court in the UK just rule that you can't beven have windmills because they impede the scenery? Won't someone think of the spotted snail darter! It has rights!
Thorium is a different beast to uranium. Much safer, doesn't produce as much waste and is much harder to weaponise.
Wait, you act like that matters to the public.
In the public's defense, they've been told this before. . .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 16:58:39
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 16:57:34
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:
Governments should not subsidise companies that are making the profits that they are, fact. Otherwise the customer is still paying high bills but doing it through tax.
I'm guessing that you didn't see that the reduced VAT to energy products was also considered to be a subsidie by that "news" article of yours? So I don't see where that higher tax is coming from.
dæl wrote:
What on researching something new that has to take over, or on something that has been around for a century? Hmmm... I would say R&D of something neither researched or developed would generally cost more, don't you think?
That research has allowed the development of new, safer and cheaper ways to explore fossil fuel reserves. Or haven't you noticed that that whole "we only have oil for 40 more years -> PANIC" line hasn't changed in the past 20+ years and we haven't even reached the fabled peak oil yet?
2012/05/30 16:58:31
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Frazzled wrote:Why do you think the hippy tree hugging nimbys are going to allow you to have a nuclear reactor in every neighborhood?
Didn't some court in the UK just rule that you can't beven have windmills because they impede the scenery? Won't someone think of the spotted snail darter! It has rights!
Thorium is a different beast to uranium. Much safer, doesn't produce as much waste and is much harder to weaponise.
Wait, you act like that matters to the public.
Fair point, the public does sometimes think of nuclear as the big bad wolf come to murder us in our beds and eat our children.
2012/05/30 17:03:13
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Joey wrote:How are we going to run out of resources?
We have enough coal/oil for the foreseeable future. Alternatives are available, it's just not economical until the price of fossil fuel rises.
Shhhhh! If the PC leftists don't bring this "scare" up once in a while, then how can they scam all those clean energy government subsidies?!
Yes, much better for the non-PC rightists to scam all the nuclear energy government subsidies.
dæl wrote:
Governments should not subsidise companies that are making the profits that they are, fact. Otherwise the customer is still paying high bills but doing it through tax.
I'm guessing that you didn't see that the reduced VAT to energy products was also considered to be a subsidie by that "news" article of yours? So I don't see where that higher tax is coming from.
dæl wrote:
What on researching something new that has to take over, or on something that has been around for a century? Hmmm... I would say R&D of something neither researched or developed would generally cost more, don't you think?
That research has allowed the development of new, safer and cheaper ways to explore fossil fuel reserves. Or haven't you noticed that that whole "we only have oil for 40 more years -> PANIC" line hasn't changed in the past 20+ years and we haven't even reached the fabled peak oil yet?
Reduced VAT must be made up for believe it or not, the treasury has a budget which must add up. You reduce one thing, and that is lost revenue which must be accounted for.
So it costs the same to look for new reserves in say Alaska, as it does to research and implement nuclear fusion? No? didn't think so, my point was R&D for unresearched things costs more than for those that already exist.
2012/05/30 17:10:15
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:We are going to run out of fossil fuels, and even if we weren't they aren't good for the planet and we need to move on to practices that secure not only our accustomed, high energy, way of life but also the future of our planet. What steps should we be taking?
I personally believe that geothermal is underused. Also in countries with the appropriate climate concentrated solar seems a great option (and Archimedes Death Rays are just cool).
Nuclear fusion doesn't seem that far away now with working reactors in South Korea and the UK, they just don't yet put out enough power to be viable, and the reaction is unstable I believe.
What are peoples opinions on where we go from here?
A lot of existing hydroelectric dams in the US need to be uprated or rebuilt, they are a truly neglected aspect of power generation. Solar power generation should be a component of all government buildings at least.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/30 17:12:28
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
@Auston Ground source heat pumps do not cause earthquakes, instead of one large geothermal plant, why not every house having a ground source heat pump?
2012/05/30 17:15:56
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:@Auston Ground source heat pumps do not cause earthquakes, instead of one large geothermal plant, why not every house having a ground source heat pump?
I didn't say I was against geothermal power generation, I was simply saying there's a good reason it is underutilized.
I prefer geothermal heating for homes rather than power generation, but safe home GT power would be the gift that never stops giving.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/30 17:19:23
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:@Auston Ground source heat pumps do not cause earthquakes, instead of one large geothermal plant, why not every house having a ground source heat pump?
I didn't say I was against geothermal power generation, I was simply saying there's a good reason it is underutilized.
I prefer geothermal heating for homes rather than power generation, but safe home GT power would be the gift that never stops giving.
I'm from Texas, what is this heating a house you refer to? Is that a byproduct of the air conditioner?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 17:21:05
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:@Auston Ground source heat pumps do not cause earthquakes, instead of one large geothermal plant, why not every house having a ground source heat pump?
I didn't say I was against geothermal power generation, I was simply saying there's a good reason it is underutilized.
I prefer geothermal heating for homes rather than power generation, but safe home GT power would be the gift that never stops giving.
I guessed you weren't against it, was just offering a type that doesn't cause the problems you mentioned.
dæl wrote:Superconductors will solve a lot of problems, I was given to understand they only work at really low temperatures, like approaching absolute zero low.
About 120K or thereabouts. They're also pretty efficient.
Of course, you have to keep them below the critical temperature, which requires a lot of energy.
Grakmar wrote:So, no, burning fossil fuels isn't bad for the environment. It's bad for people. Now, stop being selfish and go burn some coal!
dæl wrote:@Auston Ground source heat pumps do not cause earthquakes, instead of one large geothermal plant, why not every house having a ground source heat pump?
I didn't say I was against geothermal power generation, I was simply saying there's a good reason it is underutilized.
I prefer geothermal heating for homes rather than power generation, but safe home GT power would be the gift that never stops giving.
I'm from Texas, what is this heating a house you refer to? Is that a byproduct of the air conditioner?
Despite living in this arid Arizona hellhole, I'm from Montana. I'm always more concerned with heating than cooling.
dæl wrote:
AustonT wrote:
dæl wrote:@Auston Ground source heat pumps do not cause earthquakes, instead of one large geothermal plant, why not every house having a ground source heat pump?
I didn't say I was against geothermal power generation, I was simply saying there's a good reason it is underutilized.
I prefer geothermal heating for homes rather than power generation, but safe home GT power would be the gift that never stops giving.
I guessed you weren't against it, was just offering a type that doesn't cause the problems you mentioned.
I'll be honest I didn't know what you were talking about and didn't check. I've lived in a house with hot water pipes run through the floor, although I think they were fed from a hot water spring. Most fantastic home we ever had.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/30 17:34:01
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:We are going to run out of fossil fuels, and even if we weren't they aren't good for the planet and we need to move on to practices that secure not only our accustomed, high energy, way of life but also the future of our planet. What steps should we be taking?
We should be pooling scientists and resources from every country we can and get Nuclear Fusion viable ASAP. Once we've done that we have an unlimited power supply for as long as we have Hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe.
'Course once we do get Fusion working in a controlled and sustained reaction that would mean that every fossil fuel company will be facing bankruptcy unless they switch. After all, why would anyone use a power source which creates pollution and costs a fortune to get the raw materials required over one which creates zero pollution and uses a fuel source abundantly available?
Superconductors will solve a lot of problems, I was given to understand they only work at really low temperatures, like approaching absolute zero low. That project seems brilliant though, just the type of new thinking needed for this problem.
Superconductors need to be very cold but not that near absolute zero. A common coolant used for superconductors is Liquid Nitrogen, which has a boiling point of 77 Kelvin (77 degrees above absolute zero).
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2012/05/30 17:35:17
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Why are you assuming nuclear fusion will ever be viable?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its what you stand under when not in the swimming pool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 17:35:52
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Approved 
