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2012/05/30 17:45:08
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Frazzled wrote:Why are you assuming nuclear fusion will ever be viable?
Reminds me of that xkcd comic. Whenever a scientist/technician says something will be ready in "about 20 years" what they actually mean is it's a damn sweet idea but they have no idea how to make it work. Commercially viable nuclear fusion is so far off as to be essentially irrelevent to the debate.
When I say "debate", I of course mean market forces that make coal far, far cheaper than alternatives. Burn baby, burn.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/05/30 17:46:21
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Frazzled wrote:Why are you assuming nuclear fusion will ever be viable?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its what you stand under when not in the swimming pool.
Because we have billions of examples of it working.
In space.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 18:06:20
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
It doesn't produce enough power, current estimates are 20,40, or 100 years away which means they don't have a freeking clue.
http://thefutureofthings.com/pod/6466/mit-energy-efficient-fusion-power.html MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center is home to the Alcator project, currently the largest tokamak-style fusion reactor at any university in the world and the reactor with the most plasma pressure and largest magnetic fields of any reactor, university or otherwise. The larger and more powerful International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) is in the process of ramping up, but plasma containment and control is expected to pose problems. Researchers hope this new method of control using radio waves will solve any difficulties in this area, making a viable demonstration fusion power plant possible by 2040.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 18:20:18
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 18:26:39
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
People always focus on large projects, small systems work better. Big business wants you to think big, (that's where the money is for them).
The windmill supplying one or two houses, heat pump and/ or solar panels heating the house.
Small is more efficient And you can always make your own fuel, for the car.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 18:28:13
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 18:30:35
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
By putting in a solar water heater I was able to save a lot of money in heating my home. Then the scrappers stole it. Reason #6 why I moved out of Detroit
No it's not. I don't want to produce my own energy, I want to do my job and pay someone else for energy. It's called "stupidity".
There fixed it for you
Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 18:36:33
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 18:35:17
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Frazzled wrote:It doesn't produce enough power, current estimates are 20,40, or 100 years away which means they don't have a freeking clue.
http://thefutureofthings.com/pod/6466/mit-energy-efficient-fusion-power.html MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center is home to the Alcator project, currently the largest tokamak-style fusion reactor at any university in the world and the reactor with the most plasma pressure and largest magnetic fields of any reactor, university or otherwise. The larger and more powerful International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) is in the process of ramping up, but plasma containment and control is expected to pose problems. Researchers hope this new method of control using radio waves will solve any difficulties in this area, making a viable demonstration fusion power plant possible by 2040.
Well, that link is 3 years old, so it's rather outdated by this point.
Fusion Reactors have actually taken some pretty big strides forward in those years.
2040-2050 is still a reasonable time frame for commercial fusion reactors. But, we're actually fairly close to the "break-even" point, and demonstrating the early (working) prototypes for commercial fusion reactors could take place in the next 10-20 years.
No it's not. I don't want to produce my own energy, I want to do my job and pay someone else for energy. It's called "stupidity".
There fixed it for you
Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
I am to assume you grow your own cotton, gin it, thread it, sew your own clothing and somehow made your own computer then?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grakmar wrote:
Frazzled wrote:It doesn't produce enough power, current estimates are 20,40, or 100 years away which means they don't have a freeking clue.
http://thefutureofthings.com/pod/6466/mit-energy-efficient-fusion-power.html MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center is home to the Alcator project, currently the largest tokamak-style fusion reactor at any university in the world and the reactor with the most plasma pressure and largest magnetic fields of any reactor, university or otherwise. The larger and more powerful International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) is in the process of ramping up, but plasma containment and control is expected to pose problems. Researchers hope this new method of control using radio waves will solve any difficulties in this area, making a viable demonstration fusion power plant possible by 2040.
Well, that link is 3 years old, so it's rather outdated by this point.
Fusion Reactors have actually taken some pretty big strides forward in those years.
2040-2050 is still a reasonable time frame for commercial fusion reactors. But, we're actually fairly close to the "break-even" point, and demonstrating the early (working) prototypes for commercial fusion reactors could take place in the next 10-20 years.
Your mouth to God's ears.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 18:47:54
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 18:48:14
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
loki old fart wrote:People always focus on large projects, small systems work better. Big business wants you to think big, (that's where the money is for them).
The windmill supplying one or two houses, heat pump and/ or solar panels heating the house.
That's a good point.
I remember there was a model city that is already entirely self-sufficient on electricity just because every single house was fitted with a solar cell.
2012/05/30 18:54:12
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
No it's not. I don't want to produce my own energy, I want to do my job and pay someone else for energy. It's called "stupidity".
There fixed it for you
Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
I am to assume you grow your own cotton, gin it, thread it, sew your own clothing and somehow made your own computer then?
I can grow what I need, Build may own computer ( from parts). Repair my own vehicle. Why pay for something you don't have to.
treadhead1944 wrote:By putting in a solar water heater I was able to save a lot of money in heating my home. Then the scrappers stole it. Reason #6 why I moved out of Detroit
Good for you
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 18:55:42
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 18:54:54
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
loki old fart wrote:Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
I make my own hobby materials.
I do for 40k, mostly. But frozen squid and rag worm not so much.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 19:35:30
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
No it's not. I don't want to produce my own energy, I want to do my job and pay someone else for energy. It's called "stupidity".
There fixed it for you
Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
I am to assume you grow your own cotton, gin it, thread it, sew your own clothing and somehow made your own computer then?
I can grow what I need, Build may own computer ( from parts). Repair my own vehicle. Why pay for something you don't have to.
treadhead1944 wrote:By putting in a solar water heater I was able to save a lot of money in heating my home. Then the scrappers stole it. Reason #6 why I moved out of Detroit
Good for you
So in other words, you don't. Gotcha.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/05/30 20:11:14
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
No it's not. I don't want to produce my own energy, I want to do my job and pay someone else for energy. It's called "stupidity".
There fixed it for you
Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
That's uncalled for.
I don't frequently agree with Joey, I probably don't even agree with him on this but him expecting to do his job and pay someone to provide him with a service is not stupidity, it's not even capitalism. It is society.
I don't suppose you make your own thread, weave your own textiles, cut and sew your own clothes. Nor I would guess do you kill an animal, tan it's hide, and cobble your own shoes. I would wager you paid someone else to do it. If that is stupidity I would wager that you are surrounded by stupidity in your own home. I know people that live entirely off the (power) grid, but living that lifestyle is a full time job all it's own. It is not a life cut out for the average person. Certainly not the average urban person.
Automatically Appended Next Post: frakking ninjaed by Frazz.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 20:12:45
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/30 20:15:28
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
No it's not. I don't want to produce my own energy, I want to do my job and pay someone else for energy. It's called "stupidity".
There fixed it for you
Money saved on bills can be spent on hobbies
That's uncalled for.
I don't frequently agree with Joey, I probably don't even agree with him on this but him expecting to do his job and pay someone to provide him with a service is not stupidity, it's not even capitalism. It is society.
I don't suppose you make your own thread, weave your own textiles, cut and sew your own clothes. Nor I would guess do you kill an animal, tan it's hide, and cobble your own shoes. I would wager you paid someone else to do it. If that is stupidity I would wager that you are surrounded by stupidity in your own home. I know people that live entirely off the (power) grid, but living that lifestyle is a full time job all it's own. It is not a life cut out for the average person. Certainly not the average urban person.
Automatically Appended Next Post: frakking ninjaed by Frazz.
You're right it was a bit harsh, but it was meant to be taken lightly. I apologize to joey
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 20:17:33
Subject: The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
To be fair, having a solar cell on one's roof isn't exactly a "full time job", nor can it be compared to growing one's own food or tailoring one's own clothes.
Entire cities are doing this already.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 20:18:42
2012/05/30 20:20:08
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time. That is still small scale and much better for everyone. Taking responsibility for your effect on the world doesn't mean you need step out of society and become a hippy.
EDIT: Ninja'd
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 20:20:45
2012/05/30 20:21:40
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time. That is still small scale and much better for everyone. Taking responsibility for your effect on the world doesn't mean you need step out of society and become a hippy.
EDIT: Ninja'd
True and its easy
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 20:36:10
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time.
...assuming you're willing to wait 30 years to "save money" on that solar panel.
text removed by Moderation team.
2012/05/30 20:37:28
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/30 20:39:56
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time.
...assuming you're willing to wait 30 years to "save money" on that solar panel.
Against doing the way we've always done it, seeing how well that worked out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AustonT wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
You're right it was a bit harsh, but it was meant to be taken lightly. I apologize to joey
I applaud that you are big enough to say so.
PS: Read twice and couldn't think of a better way to write it but as a caveat not meant to be sarcastic or abrasive..."how big of you" is an insult based on a compliment...I'm complimenting.
Thank you, but do I deserve a compliment? when just saying fair enough would be ok.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 20:42:39
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 20:45:05
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time.
...assuming you're willing to wait 30 years to "save money" on that solar panel.
Against doing the way we've always done it, seeing how well that worked out.
Turns on light switch...
Turns on computer...
Communicates with someone halfway around the world in less time than it takes to do either...
Yup, seems to be working pretty well.
text removed by Moderation team.
2012/05/30 20:55:23
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time.
...assuming you're willing to wait 30 years to "save money" on that solar panel.
Against doing the way we've always done it, seeing how well that worked out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AustonT wrote:
loki old fart wrote:
You're right it was a bit harsh, but it was meant to be taken lightly. I apologize to joey
I applaud that you are big enough to say so.
PS: Read twice and couldn't think of a better way to write it but as a caveat not meant to be sarcastic or abrasive..."how big of you" is an insult based on a compliment...I'm complimenting.
Thank you, but do I deserve a compliment? when just saying fair enough would be ok.
fixed.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/05/30 20:56:29
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time.
...assuming you're willing to wait 30 years to "save money" on that solar panel.
Against doing the way we've always done it, seeing how well that worked out.
Turns on light switch...
Turns on computer...
Communicates with someone halfway around the world in less time than it takes to do either...
Yup, seems to be working pretty well.
Turns on light switch...
Turns on computer...
Communicates with someone halfway around the world in less time than it takes to do either...
Runs hot shower, after recycling all metal paper and plastic.
While wife watches tv, and probably pays less than most for doing it.
Yeah works just aswell my way
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2012/05/30 20:59:45
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
dæl wrote:There is a distinct difference between growing and refining your own biofuel, which is time consuming, and having a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger/solar panel/turbine fitted, which once done will just save you money and not cost any time.
...assuming you're willing to wait 30 years to "save money" on that solar panel.
Things like facts don't really mean much to you do they biccat? Takes ten years to pay for its installation, that means it's saving money from day one, just not much. And bear in mind that fuel prices are constantly rising, so it could be less than ten years based on what you'd be paying three years from now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/30 21:03:04
2012/05/30 21:02:47
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
loki old fart wrote:and probably pays less than most for doing it.
What kind of electrical system do you have? How much did you pay up front? What it it's lifespan? How much do you pay annually for maintenance?
I buy my power at a great price. Green energy proponents (including the President) promise to increase that price.
loki old fart wrote:Yeah works just aswell my way
You suggested that "the way we've always done it" didn't work out so well.
It's working out just fine on my end.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dæl wrote:Things like facts don't really mean much to you do they biccat? Takes ten years to pay for its installation, that means it's saving money from day one, just not much. And bear in mind that fuel prices are constantly rising, so it could be less than ten years based on what you'd be paying three years from now.
From what I've seen, the price for solar panels is around $10,000 per KW for about 1300 hours per year. My electric rate is around $0.15/KWh.
You do the math and show me how I'm wrong.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/30 21:05:26
text removed by Moderation team.
2012/05/30 21:15:32
Subject: Re:The impending energy crisis, and what to do about it.
biccat wrote:You suggested that "the way we've always done it" didn't work out so well.
We've as in the human race. Have nuclear waste to dispose off. Seas of plastic waste, floating in the pacific.
Trees with no leaves, due to gasses from fossil fuels. And crude oil washed up on our beaches. Plus wars over resources, so yes well done.
Carry on as normal eh, lets see what else we can screw up.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
