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So i have come into some SM scouts. about 15, 8 with snipers, two missle, one regular, one heavy bolter. and ofcourse the Land speeder storm.
I have tried snipers and they dont work well.
But i was wondering how to use them.

How have you used them? What were you against? Where did you put them? Any other info?

Right, so sniper scouts throw some decent shots at high toughness enemies. The heavy bolter has a good synergy with them thanks to the 2+ hellfire shells. I don't find the missile launcher that great, with the 4+ to hit, unless you need some backup anti-tank fire. Camo cloaks are optional. In any case, stick them in cover. Give them enough support and they will perform well.

Well scouts are troops, and troops are absolutely essential in 2/3 game types. They alao have infiltrate and scout, making their versatility go through the roof as this grants more deployment options. Scouts can be used to deny other infiltrators their most advantageous position if the infiltrating scouts are placed first. If the scouts are placed second, they can
choose to outflank.
Land speeded storm would be great for contesting/pushing units away from objectives due to the -2 leadership on the turn they charge, and scout landspeeders can babysitter an objective area to deter all the deadly deep strikers.

Also scouts have the option for Camo cloaks. I think everybody knows or can imagine how annoying it is to take out 1 combat squaded group of scouts when they have shipwreck and a 2+ cover save.

Well i have only used snipers. I give them the heavy bolter.
I tend to put them in buildings with cover.
Because here is what i was thinking. Having the LS baby my vindi, get it close so they can still leave and assualt and mop up any left over troops.

snipers, telon and HB can make good objective campers.
Stick them on a backfield objective.
Telon is nice, saves points, BS 7, snipes meltas or IC out of squad, BS (6 or 7?

Its 6, I actually got him ordered.

Well, the Storm Talon can escort an outflanking Scout unit. I've already seen an army list here that is based on Scouts and incorporates some Storm Talons.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

Why TAC Squads are Sub-Par
They do not come with an extra CC weapon, and have limited abilities to carry multiple special weapons. Given the cost, they just fall short of other TAC squads.

Land Speeder Storm and Scouts
This loadout is one that can be used instead of a TAC squad. This does take up a FA and troop slot.
- Storm w/MM (65)
- 5 scouts w/ CCW and PF searg (100)
(optional camo cloaks)

This squad is not a front-line squad. Its extremely fragile, and cannot survive much shooting. Basically if a psydread/psycannon even looks at them, they will be transmogrified into a cloud of fine red mist.
Much like Eldar Guardian Jetbikes the best way to survive is to not be on the board, or be out of sight. As such the storm should always be either behind LOS blocking terrain or in reserve. When they deploy, they must do so to as strong of an effect as possible, as they are not likely to get another chance.

This squad is designed to fill the following role.
- Objective grab from outlfank (then just go to ground with camo-cloaks for the rest of the game)
- Turn 1 PF assault on rear armor using the scout move of the speeder
- Vehicle assault from outflanking (works best on back line vehicles like manticores)
- Assault weak foes such as long fangs
- Tie up a dread for a turn or two.
- Tie up veil-tech necrons

Note I use the term tie-up. Its quite possible that even with a PF, assaulting necrons or long fangs will result in the scouts getting killed. The important thing, however, is that the scouts managed to keep the other squad for being effective for as many turns as possible, and possibly to weaken the squad as much as possible.

The Cererus Launcher (which lowers enemy LD by 2 when scouts assault from it) will help on sweeping necrons -- which prevents the RP.

One advantage is that the land speeder storm is only a C:SM book option, which means that people will not be used to playing against it. Some people might even make the mistake of trying to deep strike within 6" of the storm. Do not rely upon that kind of mistake, as skilled players will not make it.
Its much more rational to believe that people will not expect it to outflank and fire a MM at one target, then have the scouts assault another target (as its a fast, open topped vehicle)

The storm works best when combined with Vulcan, as it increases the MM chance of hitting from 50% to 75%. This makes it much more reliable for the purpose of anti-tank. Being able to move 12" from an outflanking edge and then melta 2d6 another 12" away gives an highly effective zone of 24" from either board edge.

Shrike armies can also benefit from the speed, allowing the scouts to have an effective assault range of 21"-26" from the outflanked board edge. This makes it very hard for a player to hide their back line support units.

Summary
I hope this helps those die-hard C:SM players to think of other ideas to help their army and to get around the big problem of the general TAC squad.

Firstly only with Telion do I feel they are killy enough in their own right.

For me it really depends on the list.
Troop choices for vanilla marines need to support the other killier choices in the FoC.

if you bringing a Landraider, say, then tactical squads in rhinos will help whilst scouts will do nothing to draw fire or really work the tank.

However, as another example, if you a bring dreads in drop pods, then some weird scouts with combimelta and meltabombs in a storm may just work for you as it adds to the alpha strike and forces the enemy to turtle even more. Tactical marines in drop pods are also a good choice, probably better. Also scout bikers can do the alpha strike role better.

My point being is that you build your list then look for troops that work. Given scouts are not mech, not so killy, are flexible in their deployment and cheap; then a low mech, outrageously killy, alpha strike or immobile army can make best use of them, as a token troop choice.

Labmouse, nice summary. I'd be inclined to let the Storm be escorted by a Storm Talon. Then the enemy has to take measures in his/her backfield when this combo arrives. This combo can threaten tanks and occupied mission objectives and so could become a serious threat.

LS storm does take up a FOC plaace. No where in either entry does it say you can take it as a dedicated transport

wuestenfux wrote:Labmouse, nice summary. I'd be inclined to let the Storm be escorted by a Storm Talon. Then the enemy has to take measures in his/her backfield when this combo arrives. This combo can threaten tanks and occupied mission objectives and so could become a serious threat.

I agree. The stormtalon increases the effect of the LSS



Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:LS storm does take up a FOC plaace. No where in either entry does it say you can take it as a dedicated transport

Where was it said that the scouts could take it as a dedicated transport? Hotsauceman1 is right, it takes up a FOC to use it.

It may take up a FA slot, but scouts are scoring units, right? Even if they are in a LSS

labmouse42 +1
i Love scouts. They are a cheap way to add a troop to your list. Given a powerfist and a combi melta a scout squad in a LSS is a really effective back of the line threat. I have taken out tons of land raiders first turn of a game. Given a combi flamer on the scout and a HF on the LSS this little unit makes a huge threat to almost any eldar or ork unit. Given how meched up every army you see is, the MM LSS and the Combimelta powerfist scout srg is a better option.
Bottom line. Scouts work. They are not overpowered, but not a weak link either.

So, the chief advantage that scouts have over tacs is the fact that they have scouts. I don't see how big of a deal this is, though, given that tacs can take drop pods. Scouts with melta in a LSS aren't going to do a turn 1 strike any better than a tac squad in a drop pod can.

I suppose scouts can do outflanking while tacs can't outside of khan, but once again... drop pods...

It feels like the really cool things you gain with scouts you could have just taken tacs for instead, leaving scouts as a cheaper, crappier, more limited version of tac marines. Given how much SM is about options, this seems like a worse buy over all.

Sniper scouts wound everything on a 4+. They are better at dealing with high T targets then tac squads. And they have a long reach across the battlefield.

Assault scouts are not bad outflanking and fighting other troop picks that your opponent has hiding in cover. They are no match for dedicated assault units, but can kick those dire avengers out of those trees.

From a looks standpoint, they are not the same guys in power armor that the rest of your army is. After painting ultramarine blue for so long, I was glad to do up some scouts in camo.

Nevelon wrote:Sniper scouts wound everything on a 4+. They are better at dealing with high T targets then tac squads. And they have a long reach across the battlefield.

Yes, but plasma guns and power fists wound practically everything on 2+ and ignore armor saves. Sniper rifles are pretty awful in this rules edition (much like last). Yes, there's a chance for rending (for an S3 weapon...), and there's a chance for pinning, but these are low odds. Against vehicles, you're doing nothing. Against infantry, they're getting armor saves. Against everything else, well, they're still getting their armor saves, and probably have a backup invul save in case of a rend.

Assault cannons are cool because they have a good Ap, and are high enough strength to seriously threaten vehicles. Sniper rifles? Not so much.

Ailaros wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Sniper scouts wound everything on a 4+. They are better at dealing with high T targets then tac squads. And they have a long reach across the battlefield.

Yes, but plasma guns and power fists wound practically everything on 2+ and ignore armor saves. Sniper rifles are pretty awful in this rules edition (much like last). Yes, there's a chance for rending (for an S3 weapon...), and there's a chance for pinning, but these are low odds. Against vehicles, you're doing nothing. Against infantry, they're getting armor saves. Against everything else, well, they're still getting their armor saves, and probably have a backup invul save in case of a rend.

Assault cannons are cool because they have a good Ap, and are high enough strength to seriously threaten vehicles. Sniper rifles? Not so much.

Anecdote time, don't count on this being statistically viable (plus the story is a few editions old)

Back in 3rd ed. my sniper scouts permanently won themselves a place in my army list. It was a meeting engagement, start with a HQ and a troop on the table. The necron player slaps down the Nightbringer, C'tan god thing. He's T8 and 4++ with a chunk of wounds, and the bane of my existence. Boom! one round of shooting and he's dead. Disclaimer: sniper rifles hit on a 2+ back then, you'd need to field a lot more these days. He was going to get the save regardless of if it was from a lascannon or a sniper rifle, and the scouts let me get the number of shots I needed into him. Since then, my snipers are my "Big Game Hunters" (along with my sternguard) I use to take down high toughness, multi-wound models.

Plasma is nice, but you generally don't have a lot of it floating around, as it's going to be dispersed through your tac squads mostly. While 'fists will work, as a general rule of thumb, things with a high toughness are things you don't want to be in close combat with. Snipers let you deal with them far away. And you can give them to the whole squad.

Yes, they did take a big hit in the rules changes, but are still viable.

Ailaros wrote:So, the chief advantage that scouts have over tacs is the fact that they have scouts. I don't see how big of a deal this is, though, given that tacs can take drop pods. Scouts with melta in a LSS aren't going to do a turn 1 strike any better than a tac squad in a drop pod can.

I suppose scouts can do outflanking while tacs can't outside of khan, but once again... drop pods...

It feels like the really cool things you gain with scouts you could have just taken tacs for instead, leaving scouts as a cheaper, crappier, more limited version of tac marines. Given how much SM is about options, this seems like a worse buy over all.

Gah, I can't even recall the last time I considered wasting a drop pod on tacs. Nothing quite like throwing down a 170+ squad in a 35 pt 1 use transport whose weapons are half effective the turn they come in (the heavy weapon can't fire) and with scatter no perfect chance that your melta will even show up in melta range. Also, outflanking scouts can assault. Can drop pod tacs? Can tacs take CCWs on every model?

Also scouts are indeed cheaper, and they are indeed crappy... but they aren't "more limited" and that crappy factor hardly matters when the cheapness is good enough and the options they get more useful. I will gladly pay less for a unit that sacrifices some defense and a marginal amount of offensive punch for more deployment/movement/weapon options. 5 man ML squads? Great. 5 man midfield HB/bolter squad? Great. 5 Man PF delivery distraction squad? Great. The best part of scouts is that you don't have to commit to a 10 man idiot squad to get 2 conflicting weapons.

A unit of scouts can alter how the enemy deploys (bump away scout moves or enemy infiltration), a drop pod tac squad make the enemy use the drop pod defense deployment. A unit of Scouts in a land speeder is a turn 1 threat that has deep reach at full effectiveness. A drop pod squad lands where the dice and your opponent lets it, and is at halfish offense when it lands (rapid fire, no assaults, no heavy weapon use). A Land speeder w/MM and combi melta sarge and PF can shoot both melta and MM, fire bolt pistols and assault. Neither squad is likely to take out serious threats, but the scouts can at least do their thing at full effectiveness immediately.

The only thing I even remotely like about tacs is they let marines neglect their troop choices, as they are durable and so ineffective at offense that I feel no temptation to expend them at offense. This lets me have a critical mass of scoring bodies without taking very many (unlike in xenos armies where you need the numbers to make of for bad T and saves). 2 full squad of tacs and 2-4 small squads of scouts is how I've been running my armies lately, with the FA/HS/Elite slots being just flavor and fire support.

Also, scouts are much better not taking sniper riffles than they are taking them. ML squads might want them so they can get the occasional lucky rend against light transports, but anti infantry power they do not have. Scouts have mobility options, making them effectively immobile is a waste of their abilities IMHO. So bolters/HB squads and CCW PF/Combi squads is what I like and run.

I have had a lot of luck with my sniper scouts. I run a group of 10, with Telion and a ML. At that size telion is the same size as cloaks, and hes awesome. I've taken out assault squads multiple times before they manage to make it to my flanks. You just need to be careful of deepstriking and other units coming in behind you... they don't do too well in CC.

I personally run eight snipers, Telion, and I vacillate between the missile launcher and the heavy bolter. They make great objective campers, and come in cheaper than Tactical Marines (the way I run them, anyway). The ability to infiltrate out of my deployment zone is pretty killer, as well. I've had them go very poorly for me, and I've had them go very well for me. On the back line, I think they do better than a squad of Tactical Marines, but that's just my take.

notabot187 wrote:Gah, I can't even recall the last time I considered wasting a drop pod on tacs. Nothing quite like throwing down a 170+ squad in a 35 pt 1 use transport whose weapons are half effective the turn they come in (the heavy weapon can't fire) and with scatter no perfect chance that your melta will even show up in melta range. Also, outflanking scouts can assault. Can drop pod tacs? Can tacs take CCWs on every model?

Why would marines ever really want cc apart assault termies?
Tactical squad in a drop is a pod you do not mind not dropping first turn, usually. It is also scoring, dropping onto an objective late is an awesome move if you are unlucky with reserve roles. Then you have 9 rapid firing bolters which will do a fair bit of damage, enough to whittle most infantry squads down to manageable levels. Then they land with combimelta and melta, true, it may not be in range, but that could happen to any of your other pods: 2 melta shots is pretty good chance of taking out a tank. Once the combiweapon has shot, the heavy weapon then can come into its own: especially if the enemy runs away.

I can see a TAC squad dropping in this one case.

You have 3 pods in an army. On turn 1, your dropping your two sterngard combi-melta squads to melta up the enemy lines. This is best done with a shrike army and 10 fleeting/inflitrating TH/SS terminators hot on the heels of said sternguard.

You keep your TAC squad in reserve to drop on turns 2+ so you can land on an objective later during the game.
The purpose of the TAC squad in a pod is to make sure your sternguard melta-strike lands on turn 1.

MFletch wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Gah, I can't even recall the last time I considered wasting a drop pod on tacs. Nothing quite like throwing down a 170+ squad in a 35 pt 1 use transport whose weapons are half effective the turn they come in (the heavy weapon can't fire) and with scatter no perfect chance that your melta will even show up in melta range. Also, outflanking scouts can assault. Can drop pod tacs? Can tacs take CCWs on every model?

Why would marines ever really want cc apart assault termies?
Tactical squad in a drop is a pod you do not mind not dropping first turn, usually. It is also scoring, dropping onto an objective late is an awesome move if you are unlucky with reserve roles. Then you have 9 rapid firing bolters which will do a fair bit of damage, enough to whittle most infantry squads down to manageable levels. Then they land with combimelta and melta, true, it may not be in range, but that could happen to any of your other pods: 2 melta shots is pretty good chance of taking out a tank. Once the combiweapon has shot, the heavy weapon then can come into its own: especially if the enemy runs away.

Well, Codex marines aren't the best shooting army in the game, so they often need something to tie up or kill opposing units. I've tied up/killed all sorts of units that weren't worth sending assault termies at. Also you seen to over value the effect that 9 bolters will have. 18 shots with bolters usually kill about 2 marines. Heck against guard in cover you are looking only 4 dead. Assuming full tac squad and a 20 man blob that isn't even a real dent let alone worth the retribution that you will receive. I mean If you really want to spend 200+ points to kill 2 marines then get butchered in return go ahead... I would rather spend much less on units that do more damage before they die horribly.

I'm pretty much the only one at my FLGS that uses scouts, and they do really well.

I personally only use shotguns and CCW guys, with a powerfist.

Sniper scouts are excellent, and always toss in telion, never any other special weapons. Toss in cover and hold an objective.

As for the other scouts, outflanking provides you excellent mobility. Between CCW and shotguns scouts, use shotguns.

Why?

Scouts are WS 3. In melee most things hit them on 3's. Shotguns assaulting have one less attack, but one more ranged attack. 20 shotgun shots followed by 18 melee swings is pretty damn good, and gives your scouts the option to stay out of melee.

CCW scouts are required to charge/be in melee, they provide no other support. I'd rather have versatile scouts than scouts required to charge.

I use 5 in a storm with combat blades and a power fist. they chew through stuff.

i outflank them, then assault things.

It is downright fantastic.

tyranid monstrous creature army vs 5 sniper squads w HB, 3 sternguard squads and a captain with hellfire rounds.
carnage. wounding carnies on 2+s or 4+s is sooo useful

Scouts w/ Telion w/ Master of the Forge w/ conversion Beamer in cover on the back of table made some memorable games for me. Sometimes they hang out beside a friend who has a Thunder Fire cannon, good times....

Well my sniper scout biggest hitters are the poison hellfire bolt.
And i just got telion so i will see how be does in m next game.