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This was doing the rounds on Facebook. I thought it was interesting.

http://gamingaswomen.com/posts/2012/06/sexy-vs-sexist-round-2-privateer-press-warmachinehordesiron-kingdoms/comment-page-1/

Interesting read. No mention of eDenny's war-thong ensemble, but I wouldn't want to disappoint the author.

Denny is probably the bottom of the pile. Skarre and Mortenebra are good examples especially from a fluff perspective. None of the Lich Lords are female though. :(

There's also Feora, Zerkova, Kaya, Morvahna...

It's too bad that she doesn't play the game itself. The female Warcasters and Warlocks are some of the strongest in the game.

George Spiggott wrote:Denny is probably the bottom of the pile. Skarre and Mortenebra are good examples especially from a fluff perspective. None of the Lich Lords are female though. :(

There's also Feora, Zerkova, Kaya, Morvahna...

One of the Withershadow Combine is, though.

htj wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Denny is probably the bottom of the pile. Skarre and Mortenebra are good examples especially from a fluff perspective. None of the Lich Lords are female though. :(

There's also Feora, Zerkova, Kaya, Morvahna...

One of the Withershadow Combine is, though.

Plus, Mortenebra.

Oh yes! I always forget about her.

Interesting read indeed, thanks for sharing.

She has a point. Female characters look powerful in their own right rather than designed to fill a fan-service quota. I myself realised recently that there was no sexism whatsoever in-universe as well, to the point where it's sadly a bit unrealistic... Not that I complain about it.

[rant]

No, what I can't seem to get over is dem heels.
They're silly. No matter how you look at it, they stick out like a sore thumb. I've never worn such shoes, but I hear they're already impractical in everyday life. Actually, I've just checked the spelling of impractical and the dictionary gives as an example "impractical high heels". You're not going to make me believe it's a sensible thing to wear on a battlefield. Thyra has Acrobatics for crying out loud !
The Cryxian ladies I can live with ; they play on the femme fatale archetype, and lethal they are. Why not. Fantasy.
Legion warlocks... Does wearing heels to walk in snow make sense to the Nyss ? Not to me. Dumb.
But Skorne ? The Paingiver master tormentor ? Makeda ? Palm to face.

[/rant]

For the last bit, I rationalise by picturing Vinter as a pimptastic fashionista who taught the Skorne more than new tactics

Hyd wrote:
No, what I can't seem to get over is dem heels.

It's to give them an extra weapon in combat. If you've ever been hit with a heel, you know what I'm talking about

Mortenebra and the Withershadow Combine are Iron Liches not Lich Lords. Lich Lords are the twelve leaders of Cryx under Lord Tourok.

Platuan4th wrote:

Hyd wrote:
No, what I can't seem to get over is dem heels.

It's to give them an extra weapon in combat. If you've ever been hit with a heel, you know what I'm talking about

QFT

I'll take feth me stiletto's and boob armor over "BALD AND SCREAMING" anyday of the week.

I for one wasnt to impressed with this article. With out being to offensive this looked like another article about a woman ranting about something that in the end doesnt really matter. Look these girls in these games could all be dressed up like girls from gone with the wind or something and it wouldnt make a bit of difference on the amount of female players. In the end games like D&D, Warhammer, and Warmachine are played by mostly males thats just the way it is......the companies that make these games know that so they cater to the male audience with sexy looking chicks with big boobs because in the end sex sells. Look I get the points shes trying to make and I understand that she somehow feels wronged by how woman are portrayed in these games......but its really not a big deal....soooooo get over it.

I know women who feel empowered making a sexy character in sexy armor.

TheNextMikeIke wrote:the companies that make these games know that so they cater to the male audience with sexy looking chicks with big boobs because in the end sex sells.

Well, let me tell you that as a person supposedly targeted by such crude devices, I find it insulting. Let's be honest, if I want to see 2D boobs, I have the Internet. I'm not looking for that in my games. I don't find it exactly flattering for women either, but I'm not directly concerned here.

Some eye candy here and there I'm perfectly OK with. Heck, PP art is quite on the modest end of the scale. Doesn't mean I have to hear "no big deal, get over it". No good sir, I won't.

Shadowbrand wrote:I know women who feel empowered making a sexy character in sexy armor.

Guess that's the female equivalent of the generation of boys who grew up wanting to be like Duke

Hyd wrote:Guess that's the female equivalent of the generation of boys who grew up wanting to be like Duke

What boy wouldn't wanna grow up and be the Duke?

The walk, the slow, deliberate way of speaking, calling everyone "pilgrim"...

It's totally true. Men want to be strong and badass. Women want to be sexy.

Any woman or man who claims they wouldn't improve their looks if they could is a liar.

Hyd wrote:Interesting read indeed, thanks for sharing.

She has a point. Female characters look powerful in their own right rather than designed to fill a fan-service quota. I myself realised recently that there was no sexism whatsoever in-universe as well, to the point where it's sadly a bit unrealistic... Not that I complain about it.
...

It's there a little bit, actually. The Fraternal Order of Wizardry in Cygnar, for instance, only admits men (this is why casters in the fluff like Siege, Nemo, and Darius have mage ranks, but Haley actually does not at all). And most royal lines seem to be patrilinear save Khador. It is a bit toned-down from Earth, but I think part of the in-setting reasons is the fact that magic can be a pretty heavy equalizer abouts.

And stuff.

Hyd wrote:]Well, let me tell you that as a person supposedly targeted by such crude devices, I find it insulting. Let's be honest, if I want to see 2D boobs, I have the Internet. I'm not looking for that in my games. I don't find it exactly flattering for women either, but I'm not directly concerned here.

Some eye candy here and there I'm perfectly OK with. Heck, PP art is quite on the modest end of the scale. Doesn't mean I have to hear "no big deal, get over it". No good sir, I won't.

Look an online wargame forum is hardly the place to have an argument over a weighty issue like sexism....so im going to try and not dig to deep into it but I would like to make a few quick points.

The problem with articles on issues like this is they are always one sided........the people that write them are looking for some kind of injustice so they do a quick dab of research find pics and info that fit their needs and run with it without really digging into it. It took me all of 2 seconds of flipping threw my warmachine rulebook to see just as many modestly clothed woman portrayed in the iron kingdoms as skanky ones. In fact my earlier vision of "gone with the wind" type look almost came true when I saw the Arcane Tempest Gun Mages art. The whole "boob plate" just look at the widow makers art......if the woman didnt have a feminine face you wouldnt even be able to tell she was a woman as her boobs are no existent. The point Im trying to make is there is many strong females portrayed in the iron kingdoms that dress modestly....but just like real life you have girls that dress like skanks to....both types are represented.

Now to dig into some of the offenses listed into the article

Boob Plate armor: This is really just a simple mater of the female body.....any women with a size bigger then an A cup is going to need a place for them to fit........in the case of armor its spots in the plate.

High heels: Lets be honest even in real life high heels are impractical....they make womens feet hurt.....they are hard to walk in....they cant run in them.....but yet they still get worn. I dont find it to much of a stretch to find a magic user like skarre wearing high heels.....is it impractical?....yes...but does that stop them from being worn?.....no.

Now with out trying to sound like a philosopher or anything I think this type of thing is the problem with the world today. To many people are to easily offended....some of them just go out and look for things to be offended about and I think this is one of those cases. If people could have a little thicker skin people of different sexes and cultures would get along much better and the world would be a better place.

I find it funny she uses examples like ashlynn and aiyana from the mercs book but excludes dirty meg. Dirty meg isn't size 0 super model but not ugly by any standards prolly the most realistic looking out of them all.

Blaque wrote:

Hyd wrote:Interesting read indeed, thanks for sharing.

She has a point. Female characters look powerful in their own right rather than designed to fill a fan-service quota. I myself realised recently that there was no sexism whatsoever in-universe as well, to the point where it's sadly a bit unrealistic... Not that I complain about it.
...

It's there a little bit, actually. The Fraternal Order of Wizardry in Cygnar, for instance, only admits men (this is why casters in the fluff like Siege, Nemo, and Darius have mage ranks, but Haley actually does not at all). And most royal lines seem to be patrilinear save Khador. It is a bit toned-down from Earth, but I think part of the in-setting reasons is the fact that magic can be a pretty heavy equalizer abouts.

And stuff.

The fraternal order began admitting women in recent years and Haley as well as other female casters do have the rank of magus. That isn't to say they are without shovenistic discrimination. It's been said Haley should be Adept rank already but she has not been acknowledged due to her young age and gender.

I think there is much less human-on-human intolerance in the IK because other races like trollkin or gobbers take the brunt of it. Even if humans have an unknown tolerance from our perspective, I would not call it an idealized society by any means. The menites, of course, bring the flames to nonbelievers of all types, be they morrowan, thamaratie, or dhunian.

George Spiggott wrote:Mortenebra and the Withershadow Combine are Iron Liches not Lich Lords. Lich Lords are the twelve leaders of Cryx under Lord Tourok.

Hence why I said 'there is...though' as opposed to 'not so, as there is...'

I wasn't saying there were female Lich Lords, just giving an example of an female undead character. Maybe not super relevant, in hindsight, but there you go.

htj wrote:I wasn't saying there were female Lich Lords, just giving an example of an female undead character. Maybe not super relevant, in hindsight, but there you go.

Thanks for the clarification. It was much needed. Regardless there is definitely a glass ceiling within the Cryx hierarchy. I really hope Mortenebra fills the empty Lich Lord seat as she is one of my favourite characters from the Iron Kingdoms.

Judging by the new Morvahna artwork I will speculate that she won the Omnipotent position that was open. I think that would make her the highest ranking female character in the game.

I feel like the author has been so thoroughly traumatized by the god-awful way nerd media portrays the majority of it's female characters, that she's willing to give PP too much of a free pass on their art. Certainly, you're not generally seeing any "Come Hither" looks, as she's putting. However much of the female art still looks downright silly. So much of the art depicts them in outfits that are clearly designed to be sexy, or make them look pretty as priority over making them look like a warrior/knight/whatever their job may be. Sure they generally do a passable job of pulling off the latter goal but it is so very clearly secondary. This also true to good extent of the body types depicted in the female characters, but frankly that's a whole 'nother can of worms I don't wanna go near.

The men in the Iron Kingdoms aren't subject to this. They freely design these guys as their role in the setting first and foremost, without stopping to put them heels, thigh-highs, bare midriffs, and the ridiculous armor with tits sculpted on. The men are all dressed in way that I can believe actually serve as functional designs in the setting in which they live. This isn't true of the female characters.

Some come close. If eFeora didn't have the heels it'd she'd be a good example. Her sculpted-tits armor is downplayed enough it feels in place with her "sculpted like a human torso" armor. The same goes with Blaize, sans heels her boob-cops are downplayed enough to fit in with the overly ornate style with her armor (Sort of).

Someone mentioned dirty meg, who works very well. Note that with her it doesn't really matter that a non-trivial amount of cleavage is showing. This because that whole kind of sloppy outfit, with cutoff sleeves that sort isn't really concerned with how dignified you look is what I expect out of down-and-dirty mechanic, male or female. It's the female equivalent to a greasy dude in a torn up jean jacket and a formerly white tank top.

I mean yeah privateer press does as good or better than almost everyone else, considering how poorly women make out elsewhere. However just because everyone else is getting an F, doesn't mean I'm going to praise you for getting a C-.

However credit where credit is due. They do a very good job with making things even handed in the fluff, with the majority of sexism limited to a handful of stuffy organizations. In the stories the female characters are very cool and they like driving forces in the stories just as much anyone else. I just wish the art was cool enough to match what they were actually doing.

George Spiggott wrote:

htj wrote:I wasn't saying there were female Lich Lords, just giving an example of an female undead character. Maybe not super relevant, in hindsight, but there you go.

Thanks for the clarification. It was much needed. Regardless there is definitely a glass ceiling within the Cryx hierarchy. I really hope Mortenebra fills the empty Lich Lord seat as she is one of my favourite characters from the Iron Kingdoms.

Judging by the new Morvahna artwork I will speculate that she won the Omnipotent position that was open. I think that would make her the highest ranking female character in the game.

It would be nice to see a female Lich Lord. Maybe in Mk III, if there ever is one. As a devotee of Denny, I'd like to see her usurp one of the Lich Lords positions. That'd take a fairly major event in the fluff, though.

Having said that, Cryx are the most classically evil race. They're probably breaking all sorts of employee discrimination acts.

Judging by the new Morvahna artwork I will speculate that she won the Omnipotent position that was open. I think that would make her the highest ranking female character in the game.

Uhm i would like to point out that Makeda is the supreme and sole ruler of the Skorne empire. Sadly the only way to identify makeda as female is through her boob armor. On the other hand there is no way to actually see the difference between a skorne male and female, due to the lack of hair and the " exotic" facial features. So the only way to recognize a skorne female is the boob armor, seen on Makeda and the master tormentor solo. Both also wear heels for some reason.

While i do understand the reason to give people a way to actually identify a model as male/ female, i think a more subtle approach would be better. But sculpting a recognizable female face is way harder than just adding two half circle to the breast plate. So even though stuff like boob armor and combat heels are silly, there is a reason for their existence. Also most people in the business seem to be male, the same goes for the costumers and in the end there are hardly any people who care about the representation of women in wargaming ( insert any other male dominated media).

So in the end, there are reasons for it, there are reasons against it, there is laziness and in the end the target demographic doesn't really care.

Chongara wrote:The men in the Iron Kingdoms aren't subject to this. They freely design these guys as their role in the setting first and foremost, without stopping to put them heels, thigh-highs, bare midriffs, and the ridiculous armor with tits sculpted on.

Practicality has always been at the forefront when designing armour in the Iron Kingdoms.

Vombaticus wrote:Uhm i would like to point out that Makeda is the supreme and sole ruler of the Skorne empire.

Damn right! I totally forgot about Makeda's promotion.

Someone needs to make a list.

....lol.....

Yet again a quick flip through the rule book shows a few examples of how some of the males are dressed impractical as well....I mean just look at strykers hair....lol

George Spiggott wrote:

Chongara wrote:The men in the Iron Kingdoms aren't subject to this. They freely design these guys as their role in the setting first and foremost, without stopping to put them heels, thigh-highs, bare midriffs, and the ridiculous armor with tits sculpted on.

Practicality has always been at the forefront when designing armour in the Iron Kingdoms.

Vombaticus wrote:Uhm i would like to point out that Makeda is the supreme and sole ruler of the Skorne empire.

Damn right! I totally forgot about Makeda's promotion.

Someone needs to make a list.

You're right his shoulder pads are silly, in fact Vlad is probably one of the goofier designs in the game. However, despite this the shoulder pads aren't there to make him sexy over making him "The Dark Prince", doofy as they are they seem more like they're there to make him seem larger and more imposing, than they are to show off his package. You'll notice I never once made a claim of "Practicality", nothing as depicted in the Iron Kingdoms is practical. The weapons are unbalanced, the warjacks can't possibly carry enough fuel or ammo, half the guns have barrels so big they should be blowing people's arms off. "Practical" really isn't the point.

Vlad's shoulder pads are unrealistic, but I can see how they serve in his design to give the impression of a larger than life warrior.
Stryker's sword is stupid huge, but I can see how it serves to give the Impression of a badass who can cut giant robots in half.
Reznik carries a giant metal torture device taller than he is, but I can see how it serves to make him a terrifying entity.
Terminus' wings have holes in them, but I can see how it serves to emphasis he's a horrific skeleton monster.

These are all horribly stupid decisions to make from a combat-readiness standpoint, but they work in the context of the universe. I fail to see what purpose satyxis Thigh-Highs, the harbinger's refusal to wear pants when floating in the air, Kaya's inability to wear something that covers her belly, or.. everything in Legion of Everblight serves other than to make them sexier.


Adding fantastical, impractical elements even as priority over looking functional (in a real world context) is fine, so long as it contributes to that character feeling like they are what they're supposed to be. Sexy outfits and High Heels don't work to serve that purpose, so I find it detracts from their depictions of their female characters.

The major thing I think she got wrong is saying Haley had bell bottoms, those are leather chaps, which are are sometimes flared at the bottom for better air circulation in hot weather, and to make mounting a horse. Very practical piece of clothing, which may or may not have been the artists intention.