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Chongara wrote:These are all horribly stupid decisions to make from a combat-readiness standpoint, but they work in the context of the universe. I fail to see what purpose satyxis Thigh-Highs, the harbinger's refusal to wear pants when floating in the air, Kaya's inability to wear something that covers her belly, or.. everything in Legion of Everblight serves other than to make them sexier.

Satyixis are the Iron Kingdom's take on Amazons therefore sexy is part of their archetype. Satyxis are a bit of a fantasy throwback in that respect. Their redeeming aspect is Skarre who holds the highest non Lich Lord position (Admiral of the Fleets) of any of the in game Cryx Characters.

Again Kaya's archetype has sexy elements. Her rebellious, teenage girl, nature cult theme kind of requires a bit of sexy. I suppose the real problem is that all the Circle Orboros men are such po faced monks in comparison. Circle really lack any male fertility god characters or themes. Hopefully that will be addressed at some point. Circle need an Oberon (NSFW).

The Lichlords are undead. Some may be female. Maybe Lichlord is just a title and not a reference to gender.

Scaverous looks a little femanine to me.

That article was an interesting read. I am a Khador player and I feel that the design of the female khador casters armor is both sexy and practical. Yes the armor and clothing is form fitted but they are not exposing great section of flesh or cleavage. The only flesh exposed being their faces.

This form fitted armor is not only restricted to the women Vlad's chest plate is form fitted to his highly exaggerated obliques and abs. Also his face long black hair that looks like he leapt off the cover of mills and boon.

But we should also look at the other women in the Khador book, We have the widowmaker and the WGI officer are both sporting very practical armor. There is also female man hunter sporting her mid rift but by the same token the male model is running around in a sleeveless vest with arms as big has this thighs.

When fiction is created (sculptures , art, fluff...) everything about them gets exaggerated. Male features, female features, their strength, the size of their weapons, their combat prowess. Everything is taken above that of anything based in reality so I find it difficult to judge fiction the same way I would judge people in the real world.

ICleadpeople wrote:The Lichlords are undead. Some may be female. Maybe Lichlord is just a title and not a reference to gender.

Scaverous looks a little femanine to me.

None of the Lich Lords described in the fluff are female. My guess is that a female Lich Lord would still be called a Lich Lord. Lord Exhumator Scaverous is definitely male.

ICleadpeople wrote:The Lichlords are undead. Some may be female. Maybe Lichlord is just a title and not a reference to gender.

Scaverous looks a little femanine to me.

Couple in the fact he/she/it wants to know all your dirty secrets....

Again Kaya's archetype has sexy elements. Her rebellious, teenage girl, nature cult theme kind of requires a bit of sexy.

Why?

Is being rebellious defined by being sexy?
Is being a teenage girl defined by being sexy?
Is being "one with nature" defined by being sexy?

The fair answer to all these questions is "No". You talk about being lacking in male fertility symbols, this is irrelevant. Nothing in Kaya's fluff ties her to fertility themes. Kaya is about predation and leading wild beasts. However let's say I conceded the points about her, or that having an "Sexy Amazons" is really an improvement over the possible alternatives. The fact is these elements are almost universal in the Warmahordes art, the examples vastly outweighing the counterexamples.

Honestly It wouldn't be all ruffled about if it was just a case or two of female character designs that were "Sexy First" or had silly things like boob-armor and high heels. Fine, people enjoy those elements *shrug*. However just about every named female character is wearing heels, or has an exposed midriff, or booby armor, a visible thong, thigh highs, or any number of those elements combined. Depictions that give a priority to sexy are pretty much the default standard they've adopted for their art. Clearly I'm in the minority in thinking this detracts somewhat from what is on the whole a very cool game & setting. However, I think independent of if you like or not there is very clearly a thread of sexy/pretty taking priority over other potential elements in the art that depicts female characters.

Wow. What an incredibly superficial article.

It could have been entitled, "Here's What I Think of Some Pictures I Like."

Warmachine is a step up from the dregs of some genre designs, but it ain't that special. While there aren't many "sexy" poses, that's true of most wargames I've seen. Wargames (and RPGs, for that matter) are about action, so most pieces have action shots. You tend not to have the victim/passive female portrayal, simply because you generally don't want your avatar (character, commander, etc.) to be passive or otherwise unable to kick ass. Therefore, in wargames, sex is in the attire (which was carefully dismissed as a necessary evil), not the pose, and WM is no exception to this.

I also don't buy the "I've seen more women that play WM than any other similar game." People claim that about anything they want to look good, and I've yet to see proof, or, for that matter, any notable quantity of women playing any sort of miniatures game. The only trend I've ever seen is more women play RPGs, and I think that's because of the nature of RPGs (vs. most other types of games), not because of some tendency for RPGs to have a more egalitarian view of the sexes.

Second thread about sexism in wargames today, and so I'll just post this picture again.



Skintight pseudo-latex. If they were a bunch of sexist pervs, how easily could they have objectified that? They did not. She's a warrior - a Callidus assassin, one of the deadliest mortals in the entire galaxy, capable of taking on Space Marines - men much larger than herself, frequently described as being ridiculously strong and manly. Check out her muscles. Check out her lack of enormous boobs with huge nipples poking out of her synskin - which, by the way, is shared with the male assassins. Her chest is relatively flat, which is what you'd expect from a woman given so much physical training from a very young age.

Skarre is a steampunk pirate zombie. Her battleheels are acceptable; she's a steampunk pirate zombie with green fire coming out of her eyes. What about Lylyth's bust-showing corset thing? Well, big deal. Here's a point which I find many forget.

People can wear things that they like to wear without being objectified. So what if Skarre and Lylyth like to wear inappropriate clothes? It obviously works for them; they're still alive. So what if certain male characters want enormous pauldrons, or to show their "omg objectified" bare chests with rippling muscles? A slut is a slut regardless of what clothes he or she wears.

An anecdote. A guy I used to go to college with used to point out women on the street and mention them to us while we were walking. "Get a load of that one". "I'd take her any day". Etc. We were not amused.

One particular time, in frustration, he pointed to a moderately attractive woman wearing a midriff-exposing t-shirt and a pair of leg-exposing shorts. He said "How much?", referencing that he thought she was slutty. Because, you know, prostitutes. After my scorn, he told me "Well, she must want people to think that, otherwise she wouldn't have dressed like that."

I swear, I nearly hit him.

As I told him, and I tell you now - people can wear what they want. I don't want people to take sexual notice of me. I don't go out into the world clad in hideous clothing, though, because I like to look good. Not to other people, but to myself. Does this make me a slut? No.

Okay, I went a bit off-topic there. But the point is; there are 'objectified' men and women in Warmachine, and other games. They're only objectified because you think they are. Lylyth, apart from her exposed chest and minor battle-heels, is wearing armour MADE OF SPIKES. This is incredibly impractical, but I see no outcry about this factor.

Finally, boob armour. Real-life clothing comes adjusted for breasts. Breasts exist. Just because we're being equal doesn't mean we have to pretend that men and women are the same shape, because they're not. Breasts exist, and if a man is wearing steel armour that has a form-fitting 1cm gap across his body, this would not fit a woman. Because she has breasts. Thus, her armour needs adjustment. Admittedly, each boob doesn't need a separate compartment, but why not?

Muscles are moulded to male armour all the time. Hell, the Sanguinary Guard (Blood Angels) have abs and nipples on their armour. Is there outcry over male objectification? No! There's outcry because it looks stupid. Not a gender issue; an aesthetic one.

As for sexism in-universe (about the Cygnar magic people); that's fine. Entirely. Even if women were treated like crap (by that one faction) - this is in-universe. It is recognised as sexism - a real-world problem, and remember that fantasy holds many things from the old world - and treated as unfair. It's when we start having writer issues, where the setting itself advocates sexism (or any other form of discrimination) that we have problems.

/rant. Sorry.

There's a female Lich Lord.

Thalassina's female, last I checked.

I think the whole premise of this article is a perspective on sexiness that is completely hopeless. I am a person who grew up without even learning to discriminate based on gender and I think that the idea that female characters in any sort of gaming background being pictured in a sexy way could be wrong or demeaning is complete and utter bullgak.

Sexiness is good. For and in both genders.

Male characters in these settings are often depicted in a way that emphasizes their strength, control and power. Which, incidentally, are characteristics that many women find a lot more sexy in a man than naked skin, while, just as incidentally, men often find shyness, fragility and similar attributes sexy in women. Which is how women are mostly depicted. Men are pictured with broad shoulders, small hips and strong chests. Women are pictured with curvy butts and breasts. Well, where's the difference?

I really don't see what's wrong with that. But maybe I'm just stupid and just can't see how the way women are pictured in a luxury product will herald the downfall of equality and the reinvention of female slavery.

Skylifter wrote:
I really don't see what's wrong with that. But maybe I'm just stupid and just can't see how the way women are pictured in a luxury product will herald the downfall of equality and the reinvention of female slavery.

Don't be ridiculous! Women don't have boobs! What?? No!

And yes, that's another point that I forgot to mention. I mean, look at X-Men (or Marvel in general). Sure, the women are supermodels. But look at the men, with their billion billion muscles. Everyone is equally objectified; there's no issue. Which brings me to another point.

Writers can't win. Putting in a reasonable mix of female body types, personalities, and attributes (equal or at least similar to that of the men), means that the slightest, tiniest inch of 'sexism' (some attractive clothing) is raeged over. However, removing all females from the game is sexism. And finally, white-washing every woman to be a dumpy unattractive mess that looks like a man-troll would be sexism, because that's unrealistic.

Also;



OMG SO OBJECTIFIED. JUST LOOKING AT THAT MODEL MAKES PENISES EXPLODE.

EDIT: I looked up Kaya, as I didn't know who she was.

This is slutty? What? How dare she show a little skin! Women aren't allowed to show skin! They must all wear burqa!

Frozen Ocean wrote:

Finally, boob armour. Real-life clothing comes adjusted for breasts. Breasts exist. Just because we're being equal doesn't mean we have to pretend that men and women are the same shape, because they're not. Breasts exist, and if a man is wearing steel armour that has a form-fitting 1cm gap across his body, this would not fit a woman. Because she has breasts. Thus, her armour needs adjustment. Admittedly, each boob doesn't need a separate compartment, but why not?

Pretty much the same point I made earlier.....I agree with everything your saying Frozen Ocean.

I'm laughing that she hasn't talked about Legion of Everblight basically being Thagrosh's personal harem of women warlocks.

All under the control of Everblight him/itself.



He threatens my masculinity with his muscles. I feel objectified.

Kurgash wrote:I'm laughing that she hasn't talked about Legion of Everblight basically being Thagrosh's personal harem of women warlocks.

I assume that makes Kallus the eunuch bodyguard?

Platuan4th wrote:

Kurgash wrote:I'm laughing that she hasn't talked about Legion of Everblight basically being Thagrosh's personal harem of women warlocks.

I assume that makes Kallus the eunuch bodyguard?

He's the quiet tag along that doesn't know how to act around the ladies.

I thought Dragons had no gender much like orcs in 40K, People see large muscluar frames and immediatley display their personal gender bias and assume they are male.

dripwelquest wrote:I thought Dragons had no gender much like orcs in 40K, People see large muscluar frames and immediatley display their personal gender bias and assume they are male.

I think it's more that PP keeps referring to many dragons with "he" as a pronoun instead of the general neutral it, although I remember that it was generally accepted in MkI that Ethrunbal(Everblight) was female(or at least identified as such) before being placed in Thagrosh. At least, everyone on the boards used "she" when speaking of pre-Legion Ethrunbal.

Platuan4th wrote:

dripwelquest wrote:I thought Dragons had no gender much like orcs in 40K, People see large muscluar frames and immediatley display their personal gender bias and assume they are male.

I think it's more that PP keeps referring to many dragons with "he" as a pronoun instead of the general neutral it, although I remember that it was generally accepted in MkI that Ethrunbal(Everblight) was female(or at least identified as such) before being placed in Thagrosh. At least, everyone on the boards used "she" when speaking of pre-Legion Ethrunbal.

Went and searched the PP board:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?62371-On-the-gender-of-dragons&p=853917&viewfull=1#post853917

The head Lore person point blanks says "Dragons do not have genders . . ." and addressed what and why they've been listed as a specific gender before.

The general use of "he" might be more to do with most people not being inclided to refer to a person or at least any lifeform with sentience in fictional settings as "it" in english.

dripwelquest wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

dripwelquest wrote:I thought Dragons had no gender much like orcs in 40K, People see large muscluar frames and immediatley display their personal gender bias and assume they are male.

I think it's more that PP keeps referring to many dragons with "he" as a pronoun instead of the general neutral it, although I remember that it was generally accepted in MkI that Ethrunbal(Everblight) was female(or at least identified as such) before being placed in Thagrosh. At least, everyone on the boards used "she" when speaking of pre-Legion Ethrunbal.

Went and searched the PP board:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?62371-On-the-gender-of-dragons&p=853917&viewfull=1#post853917

The head Lore person point blanks says "Dragons do not have genders . . ." and addressed what and why they've been listed as a specific gender before.

The general use of "he" might be more to do with most people not being inclided to refer to a person or at least any lifeform with sentience in fictional settings as "it" in english.

Yes, I know. My post was referring to the reasoning WHY people think of them as male as I disagree with your assessment as to why(muscular frames, since female dragons tend to have the same musculature in fantasy artwork and pronouns are the only differential in non-vocal fictional portrayals).

TheNextMikeIke wrote:Boob Plate armor: This is really just a simple mater of the female body.....any women with a size bigger then an A cup is going to need a place for them to fit........in the case of armor its spots in the plate.

High heels: Lets be honest even in real life high heels are impractical....they make womens feet hurt.....they are hard to walk in....they cant run in them.....but yet they still get worn. I dont find it to much of a stretch to find a magic user like skarre wearing high heels.....is it impractical?....yes...but does that stop them from being worn?.....no.

Chongara wrote:The men are all dressed in way that I can believe actually serve as functional designs in the setting in which they live. This isn't true of the female characters.

Chongara wrote:Vlad's shoulder pads are unrealistic, but I can see how they serve in his design to give the impression of a larger than life warrior.
Stryker's sword is stupid huge, but I can see how it serves to give the Impression of a badass who can cut giant robots in half.
Reznik carries a giant metal torture device taller than he is, but I can see how it serves to make him a terrifying entity.
Terminus' wings have holes in them, but I can see how it serves to emphasis he's a horrific skeleton monster.

These are all horribly stupid decisions to make from a combat-readiness standpoint, but they work in the context of the universe. I fail to see what purpose satyxis Thigh-Highs, the harbinger's refusal to wear pants when floating in the air, Kaya's inability to wear something that covers her belly, or.. everything in Legion of Everblight serves other than to make them sexier.

You're looking at it entirely the wrong way.

Those design aesthetics aren't anything to do with in-game realism or impressions of anything other than archetypal looks. Vlad's pauldrons aren't huge because they give the impression of a larger than life warrior, they are huge because it is part of the male archetype to have massive broad shoulders. Same as the exaggerated physiques you find in comic books, it's a caricature of the ideal body.

It's all exaggeration of the ideal. The heroes are strong lantern-jawed, muscle-bound and the women are all drop dead sexy in heels.

So what?

Hear Hear to Kaldor's words!

I like to think the satyxis have blighted feet that actually make the dominatrix heals comfy for them

Dont forget the scantily clad women in the witches coven

The only girl in my orboros army is the helmetless reeves leader. And she is a total badass, with no sexist fanfare. Casually holding her most important piece of armor says, "I'll put my hat on after I kill the first two and have to reload." While holding her double crossbow as if she is about to "Draw!" makes her seems nonchelaunt in a standoff with some chump. And out of the 5 other dudes, none have a badass wolf head shoulderpad, further cementing the "This is my dayjob, and I'm great at what I do" vibe she gives off.

off topic and personal canon warning:

I dont care what Doug says about Everblight being genderless.

Everblight is a teenaged male with power fantasies. He has all the hallmarks of it. And everblight's roster consciously or unconsciously reflects this:

Lylyth (action girl, submissive)
Vayl (mature, domineering)
Saryn and Rhyas (twins!)
Absylonia (furry?)

and that Thagrosh has an oversized right hand just seals the deal for me.

and Kallus being another vessel for EB himself just signals that EB has been spending more time in the seedier side of the internet.

Joking aside though and back on topic:

Sexy women EXIST and some women find empowerment in dressing the part. Finding fault just because one character is wearing heels or flashing cleavage is silly because that happens in real life. much more so than in PP's fiction I might add.

The success of PP here is not eliminating objectification entirely but finding a happy balance.

but in order for PP to be totally balanced, PP needs to come up with a MALE character objectified in a way that women objectify males.

PP needs to create an Edward expy

I don't want female models that look like they were inspired by "The People of Walmart". It's a fantasy game. Characters are supposed to be the extremes of what they represent, whether it's powerful masculinity, beautiful women, depraved evil, slothenly excess (I guess that could be from people of walmart) or whatever the character is meant to be.

As far as the boob plates go, there are only so many ways that one can portray femaninity on a 28mm scuplture. In a genre where it is not uncommon for men to have wild manes of hair a boob plate helps distinguish male from female.

If a company were to put out a modle that looked like Rosey Odonnell, and didn't play to gamers weakness for power gaming by giving her obscene stats or abilities, they would not sell. Who wants that in their army? Who would look at the artwork and think wow, that's pretty cool looking?

Of all the companies, PP seems to have done a pretty good job of making good looking (and playing) female characters without completely objectifying them as sex objects.

There are certain segments of society that will never be happy. They will always find something to be offended by.

Dragons are like robots. In other words, they can identify with either gender, or neither, if they so choose.

Honestly, I don't see this as having a particular gender. Nor does any Tyranid. A Dreadnought is male. A Wraithlord, on the other hand, is completely genderless to me. This is not because Dreadnoughts are bulky things and Wraithlords are silky-smooth; it's because I know a Dreadnought has a man in it, while the Wraithlord's gender could be either. A Warjack, however, is definitely neither. A Warbeast may be male, female, or genderless.

Again, I have to say it. Women and men are different shapes, with different features. Pretending otherwise is just silly.

In the case of, say, C-3PO; he looks male. However, he is in fact genderless, and if another droid of his body type were to identify female, then it would be female. This doesn't mean that a female-looking droid couldn't call itself male; no matter how much it looks like a man or woman, it is still neither, giving it freedom of choice.

I think I have to call it quits with this thread. I may spend even more too much time on it. DX

EDIT: One last thing >.>! Tyras; exactly. Aesthetics are important everywhere! Regardless of sexuality. If a new Warjack was added, with stats fairly average but overall the model is a dumpy, unattractive mess (and I mean this in Warjack terms), who would want to field it? I have a Carnivean because it looks cool. I have Epic Lylyth because she looks cool. Neither model I am actually attracted to.

Also, a female model could be unattractive and still look cool, as can male models. Any Daemon of Slaanesh is a good example of that.



I wouldn't exactly call him Grade-A beefcake, but I'll be damned if that model isn't awesome. I don't even care about his stats. If I played Khador, I'd have him.

The token girl gamer at my FLGS will only play the female casters. She would not play Abislona (sp?) because her fig is a hideous monster. She had me convert her up a sexy one before she'd play her.

She's also talked about having me make her a sexy Terminusa eventually.

Bakerofish wrote:PP needs to create an Edward expy

They already have one in Vlad.

Pale skin, long dark hair, tall and broad shouldered, aloof yet secretly a romantic at heart, destined to forever be unable to be with the one he wants, loved by both the nobles and peasantry yet hated by the ruling power, for a while he was a prince in exile from his throne, and he's the consummate warrior. There was even a torture scene where he was stripped of his armor. He's the very definition of the perfect Fantasy romance novel hero.