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Well, I got my rulebook, so I ran 6th for a test run today!

My Emperor's Children, Allied with Chaos Daemons:

Daemon Prince, MoSlaanesh, Wings, Lash

Kairos Fateweaver

10x chaos marines, powerfist champ, 2x plasmaguns
10x chaos marines, powerfist champ, 2x plasmaguns
18x daemonettes
18x daemonettes

10x chaos terminators, lots of gear, 455 points. Icon of the "Gladiator" (a BS word to make the icon of Khorne fit Slaaneshi fluff )
9x chaos terminators, lots of gear, 395 points (same icon)


My opponent played tyranids, and going from memory:

6x hive guard
flyrant
2x tervigon
harpy
3x biovores
a few gaunts
3x units of genestealers with broodlords
2x venomthropes


I'll make a long story short, Kairos marching alongside chaos terminators really just ruins peoples' days. He couldn't get past my armor, and in the end I tabled him on turn 7, though technically I couldn't get to his objective with my last 3 scoring models.

My terminators were mostly all alive, kairos had a wound left, and my daemon prince had 2 wounds left. For scoring, I only had 3 daemonettes.

So I'll focus mostly on my opinions of 6th edition, in which I will declare I am NOT happy with it at ALL.

My main problem with 6th is it SLOWS the game down so very, very much. Example: Assault with daemonettes versus two small genestealer squads with two broodlords, one with buffed initiative from a psychic power.

Daemonettes charge, roll their charge distance and make their moves.
Initiative 10, broodlord piles in. Makes his attacks.
Initiative... 7? Other broodlord piles in, makes his attacks.

Initiative 6, my turn, my daemonettes pile in. His genestealers pile in. We roll our attacks. Everyone piles in again.

That is a LOT of "ok, stop, let's move models". Every initiative step piles in! A combat with units going through terrain into mixed units of characters, infantry, and powerfists takes forever!

Pile in I5 character. Pile in I4 troops. Pile in init 1 troops. Combats take forever!

I'm also very, very displeased with all the sniping. If you don't want enemy special weapons or characters getting in your way, just drop barrages on them. Since models are removed from closest to the center of the blast, it's easy to snipe such models out of the way. Only characters get look out sir, so special weapons are toast. Since you can also succeed at this with careful positioning or simply characters (such as crypteks) rolling a 6 to hit, it's a wonder anyone will bother with sergeants and the like in this edition, or anything special for that matter.

Also, the different types of power weapons is irritating. It seems everyone worth a damn in cc will be going at the same time - last. And I suppose it's equipment woes eating at me, but the chaos terminators being modeled with axes and maces before that were all power weapons now means they are a jumbled mess of initiative steps that each require their own pile in move, in addition to being a hodge-podge of effectiveness against different targets.

I like regrouping when the enemy is near [though it still blatantly favors marines] and I like fear checks. I hate that Daemons and CSM were FAQ'ed so that, despite being battle brothers, our characters can't join each others' units. This really restricts what I can do with their HQs, and really just points me to "why NOT bring Kairos?". Winged Daemon Princes in C:CSM are just jump monstrous creatures, while Daemon Princes with Wings in Chaos Daemons are flying monstrous creatures? Uh-huh.... k.

Lash now allows every unit I use it on to be able to cancel it using a 6+, or a 5+ if they are a psyker. 4+ if they're a better psyker than me [not hard, princes are mastery level 1]. So after being nerfed by needing to roll to hit, now they're nerfed in that they can be cancelled by any old joe shmoe.

Back to characters, I really REALLY fear psykers with good saves using the power that lets them re-roll failed saves, then soaking all the wounds their squads would take in close combat.

And vehicles truly seem DEAD in the new edition, but I hope that ends up not being the case. Next week I'll be trying my standard mechanized chaos list, and see how that goes.

Poor nids. But at least they won't have as many vehicles to deal with this edition!

On the contrary, I think they'll be fine. Plenty of high-strength shooting available, they just had AP- so it sucked. Now it easily glances and pens.

I think Tyranids are big winners from these rules - it will just take some time for people to reconfigure. With Tervis, Hive Tyrants, Broodlords, Swarmlord and Zoeys all being pykers - I think they are going to be psychic power houses and transition to a more shooting oriented build.

I am willing to give it some time when it comes to pile in moves and the like - it is always slow when you start to pickup new rules. I also think people are overlooking the ability of high I models to clear a combat zone and the new 3" pile in move which favor CC specialists over standard troops/hordes.

Don''t forget that characters can issue challenges. I think that there's a lot of strategy there to be exploited (or not).

Btw, can we say MSS necron overlords?.....heh, heh

calypso2ts wrote:I am willing to give it some time when it comes to pile in moves and the like - it is always slow when you start to pickup new rules. I also think people are overlooking the ability of high I models to clear a combat zone and the new 3" pile in move which favor CC specialists over standard troops/hordes.

This. It does seem like it's gonna take a little while to get to a decent speed with the new rules, but we'll see. It does seem like it's going to be slower overall than 5th Ed though.

Yes, but if I have a character with terminator armour in a squad of tactical marines, I can allocate wounds to him constantly until he fails his 2+ save - then use look out sir to pawn the wound off on someone else, effectively giving me a 2+ save for the entire squad.

How are Vehicles dead?

Most can now move more and claim cover easily, yes it is worse cover but still...

And Land Raiders are still very difficult to kill.

I think the main difference is assaulting vehicles more easily, but that's it.

So space out your forces and shoot from different angles to target the marines behind - you don't have to worry about outflanking assaults now...

It goes on the closest models first, so things like deep-striking behind enemy lines can be very devastating now. (Oh you put your heavy weapons in the back / all your 2+'s are in the front)

Vehicles are a lot easier to destroy now though since in the last game I played vs IG my two Doom Scythes got glanced over 15 times in three turns (third turn he finally killed one scythe with rattling snipers and the other became immobilized at the very last turn), he wiffed a lot and so did I but that 2+ ignore shaken 4+ ignore stunned saved me a lot.

CSM + Fateweaver, ROFL brian thats hilarious.

Give it less than a day and youve already found a new power build =p

jy2 wrote:Don''t forget that characters can issue challenges. I think that there's a lot of strategy there to be exploited (or not).

Btw, can we say MSS necron overlords?.....heh, heh

MSS is good but not nearly as good in units now. The way I read it you have no choice over who I feed you in the challenge if I have multiple characters (which isn't hard) meaning I can accept with a character that is useless and tear your unit up. No more placement to try and exploit certain gear or characters. After the night fight nerf, and CCB's being less effective at sweeps its obvious they want to push Scythes. Still they got the lions share of favorable FAQ'ing.


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Smitty0305 wrote:CSM + Fateweaver, ROFL brian thats hilarious.

Give it less than a day and youve already found a new power build =p

Plague marines and epididemus is also hilarious I think.


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Spellbound wrote:Yes, but if I have a character with terminator armour in a squad of tactical marines, I can allocate wounds to him constantly until he fails his 2+ save - then use look out sir to pawn the wound off on someone else, effectively giving me a 2+ save for the entire squad.

This is way wrong bud, you allocate before saves are rolled in multi save units. If you take it on him and fail a save he is stuck with it.

Red Corsair wrote:

jy2 wrote:Don''t forget that characters can issue challenges. I think that there's a lot of strategy there to be exploited (or not).

Btw, can we say MSS necron overlords?.....heh, heh

MSS is good but not nearly as good in units now. The way I read it you have no choice over who I feed you in the challenge if I have multiple characters (which isn't hard) meaning I can accept with a character that is useless and tear your unit up. No more placement to try and exploit certain gear or characters. After the night fight nerf, and CCB's being less effective at sweeps its obvious they want to push Scythes. Still they got the lions share of favorable FAQ'ing.

Ah, but the way I play my Overlords, he is usually only a unit of 1 on command barge. Thus, he can charge a unit of paladins, challenge the leader (if one still exists) and tie up that unit for a while. Or a unit of hamminators for that matter. Perfect to take on other uber-units. And against regular units, nothing has changed much besides the fact that they can challenge the lord and survive for 1 assault phase longer. But then again, for those lesser units, I'd have the wraiths handle them.

jy2 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

jy2 wrote:Don''t forget that characters can issue challenges. I think that there's a lot of strategy there to be exploited (or not).

Btw, can we say MSS necron overlords?.....heh, heh

MSS is good but not nearly as good in units now. The way I read it you have no choice over who I feed you in the challenge if I have multiple characters (which isn't hard) meaning I can accept with a character that is useless and tear your unit up. No more placement to try and exploit certain gear or characters. After the night fight nerf, and CCB's being less effective at sweeps its obvious they want to push Scythes. Still they got the lions share of favorable FAQ'ing.

Ah, but the way I play my Overlords, he is usually only a unit of 1 on command barge. Thus, he can charge a unit of paladins, challenge the leader (if one still exists) and tie up that unit for a while. Or a unit of hamminators for that matter. Perfect to take on other uber-units. And against regular units, nothing has changed much besides the fact that they can challenge the lord and survive for 1 assault phase longer. But then again, for those lesser units, I'd have the wraiths handle them.

It's a good tactic still definitely, though unfortunately some people are now saying that ALL nobz and ALL palis are characters according to the rulebook, which means any one can accept until they re-FAQ it ( also reinvents the wound shenanigans game on a much slower LOS basis). Hey, just leave him in his chariot and fight at +1 save and only worry about the hammer






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Also whip coils and lash whips got better!


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Just remembered that if unit has nothing to do they can "cheer on" there hero giving him a reroll per 5 models meaning he can reroll his SUCCESSFUL hits from MSS

Yep, things will take a while to hash out, but overall I like the rules changes. They nerfed wound allocation, buffed things that should be harder to kill (2+ save things), and gave older codices cool fun stuff to play with (Dark Angel Psykers are worth a damn now!)

That said, I think Kairos with Termis is a good tactic. But I thought at 2k+ you had to use 2 primary detachments...?

Zid wrote:Yep, things will take a while to hash out, but overall I like the rules changes. They nerfed wound allocation, buffed things that should be harder to kill (2+ save things), and gave older codices cool fun stuff to play with (Dark Angel Psykers are worth a damn now!)

That said, I think Kairos with Termis is a good tactic. But I thought at 2k+ you had to use 2 primary detachments...?

Ah, good catch you are correct sir. Though they could have played 1999 and it wouldn't change much there.

Spellbound wrote:Yes, but if I have a character with terminator armour in a squad of tactical marines, I can allocate wounds to him constantly until he fails his 2+ save - then use look out sir to pawn the wound off on someone else, effectively giving me a 2+ save for the entire squad.

In mixed armour units the "look out sir" takes place before you roll any armour saves (it goes allocate wound to character, roll for look out, roll armour save [which would, in that case, be a 3+ if he passed his Look Out Sir]).

You do the samething against fateweaver in CSM as in daemons, ignore everything else until he dies and then go for the rest of the list.

Most units will have 2-3 initiative steps at most

Also first time with any new system is going to take longer. I think it will go just fine

Also at 2k you have the option of taking a second detachment, by no stretch is it mandatory.

Leth wrote:You do the samething against fateweaver in CSM as in daemons, ignore everything else until he dies and then go for the rest of the list.

Most units will have 2-3 initiative steps at most

Also first time with any new system is going to take longer. I think it will go just fine

Also at 2k you have the option of taking a second detachment, by no stretch is it mandatory.

See, thats what I think as well... can't find the FOC page though (lots o' pages in this damn thing), but it does say "can" so I assume that means its not mandatory.

And you can have 1 allied detachment for each primary. Means at 2k I can have 6 hqs if I wanted from three different codices!

And I suppose you are right on the wound allocation, but that still means a GK libby that gets the reroll saves divination power can soak every single wound caused in cc and use his 2+ invul save, rerolling failures until he finally dies.

Spellbound wrote: Winged Daemon Princes in C:CSM are just jump monstrous creatures, while Daemon Princes with Wings in Chaos Daemons are flying monstrous creatures?

are you absolutely 100% positive about this?

All winged mcs are flying mcs.... Regardless of dex (hive tyrants mmmmmm)

Spellbound wrote:Lash now allows every unit I use it on to be able to cancel it using a 6+, or a 5+ if they are a psyker. 4+ if they're a better psyker than me [not hard, princes are mastery level 1]. So after being nerfed by needing to roll to hit, now they're nerfed in that they can be cancelled by any old joe shmoe.

Small consolation: Take a daemon character with Pavane. It is not a psychic power so no Deny the Witch. Granted, only d6. But, take what you can get.


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Spellbound wrote:Yes, but if I have a character with terminator armour in a squad of tactical marines, I can allocate wounds to him constantly until he fails his 2+ save - then use look out sir to pawn the wound off on someone else, effectively giving me a 2+ save for the entire squad.

Look Out Sir is allocated before you roll the save, is it not?

spackledgoat wrote:

Ah, but the way I play my Overlords, he is usually only a unit of 1 on command barge. Thus, he can charge a unit of paladins, challenge the leader (if one still exists) and tie up that unit for a while. Or a unit of hamminators for that matter. Perfect to take on other uber-units. And against regular units, nothing has changed much besides the fact that they can challenge the lord and survive for 1 assault phase longer. But then again, for those lesser units, I'd have the wraiths handle them.

Also, the guy could simply refuse the challenge and let the remaining paladins eat your guy. You could pick the hammer guy as the one who doesn't fight, but your overlord won't be fully safe.

I suppose fighting 9 guys is better than fighting 10....or make that 8 because of mindshackles.

Also, unless they're hammers or similar, the 2+ lord is getting his saves against most power weapons.

Spellbound wrote:And I suppose you are right on the wound allocation, but that still means a GK libby that gets the reroll saves divination power can soak every single wound caused in cc and use his 2+ invul save, rerolling failures until he finally dies.

Unless you challenge him with say your (insert disposable character here) meaning he can't do anything about the rest of the squads attacks and shrugs off the characters hits only to find himself alone in the combat aside from the enemy who just buzzsawed through his mates.

Zid wrote:All winged mcs are flying mcs.... Regardless of dex (hive tyrants mmmmmm)

CSM FAQ states that units with wings are simply Jump Infantry, making CSM DPs Jump MCs and not Flying MCs.

I suspect this is due to CSM wings only costing 20 points compared to the 60 points that Hive tyrants and Chaos Daemon DPs pay.

undertow wrote:

Zid wrote:All winged mcs are flying mcs.... Regardless of dex (hive tyrants mmmmmm)

CSM FAQ states that units with wings are simply Jump Infantry, making CSM DPs Jump MCs and not Flying MCs.

I suspect this is due to CSM wings only costing 20 points compared to the 60 points that Hive tyrants and Chaos Daemon DPs pay.

Ew , that sucks. Probably cuz csm princes are far better than cd princes (and cheaper)

With the new morale stipulations, has mark of chaos undivided gained any utility or just become less necessary than before?
Forgive a tool who has not received his book yet.

I'm also very interested in the role saturation will play now that rhinos are about as durable as they cost.
Makes me wonder about SirenBoxes. The 5 initiative still sounds wonderful with the power weapon option.

undertow wrote:

Zid wrote:All winged mcs are flying mcs.... Regardless of dex (hive tyrants mmmmmm)

CSM FAQ states that units with wings are simply Jump Infantry, making CSM DPs Jump MCs and not Flying MCs.

I suspect this is due to CSM wings only costing 20 points compared to the 60 points that Hive tyrants and Chaos Daemon DPs pay.

No, it's due to cut and paste laziness on GW's part. CSM DPs *are* FMCs, and that's clearly what they intended. The White Dwarf battle report last month has a CSM DP that is clearly a FMC and is mentioned as such repeatedly. Furthermore, the German version of the FAQ does clearly say that CSM DPs are FMCs.

I mean, come on... Is the CSM DP a Monstrous Creature? Does it fly? Then it's a FMC. Seems pretty obvious to me.