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Last night I played the following list:

HQ
Eldrad
Avatar

Elites
8 Harlequins, Troupe Master, Shadowseer, Death Jester, Harlequin Kisses
7 Harlequins, Troupe Master, Shadowseer, Harlequin Kisses

Troops
10 Wraithguard w/ Spiritseer
7 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch w/ Dual avenger catapults and Bladestorm

Heavy Support
3 Warwalkers w/Scatter Lasers

ALLY
Archon w/ Power Weapon (axe), Shadowfield

10 Kabalite Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon

Voidraven Bomber

This list is absolutely broken. The archon joined the wraithguard unit with eldrad. I was able to position the unit in such a way that the closest model to any shooting was always the archon. This gave me a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save. This unit took an assault from Black Templar assault terminator squad and did not lose a single model. My opponent conceded after that. That is absolutely ridiculous. I have agreed to simply never play the list again in friendly games, and honestly there is a good chance I won't play it at tournaments.

Is there any way you can see to counter this kind of list? It revolves around denying shooting, tarpitting with the wraithguard until the Avatar or Harlequins mop up. Before last night my friend's BT termies were the best "death star" assault unit our group could field. Yes, it might lose, but it regularily beat anything it could get to.

Yes. Firstly, that Wraithguard brick is slow, yes like a Paladin Deathstar you can just keep moving away from it, except this unit has a limited range on its shooting so it doesn't exactly have a huge reach.

Additionally, if you can get some decent Psychic defence down to stop Eldrad from Fortuning the squad, you can try and get the Archon to fail his Shadowfield and thus lose it. Once you have stopped the casting you need to pile as many shots as you can into the squad and torrent it from angles that will allow you to hit the Archon. Difficult I know, but not impossible.

To be honest, I probably just go for the 'avoid the unit' thing.

Avoidance. Often the best plan with a big deathstar like that. As an eldar player I would target the walkers first to take out your only long range fire. Second target would be the kabalite warriors, then the avengers removing your two other troop choices.

Void raven comes in on turn two or three I can focus on that. Any tertiary fire takes out various harlequins, avatar as they approach my lines.

The wraith squad has nothing vicious outside of 12" so that's not a huge bubble to avoid, and I should have two or three more scoring units then you at that point. Only reason to take it on is if we were playing the relic mission and you managed to pick it up first.

Venom spam would easily down the list.

Pour splinter shots into the unit till the shadowfield breaks (only need to cause 36 wounds, one round of shooting from all the venoms would do it) and then hit the archon with a single dark lance. The DE army can easily avoid the units, and open up on the rest of the squad next round.

When our group was trying to figure out a counter, that is all we could say.

The problem is that in low objective games, or the deployment that uses short table edges its difficult to get around. I think faster armies would be much better against this list; you are right.

How can you stop Eldrad casting fortune? Rune priests strike me as the only thing, as psychic hoods would no longer work.

Lol, seriously.... You think that's broken?


Play that list against a fateweaver obliterator and term spam list.


Not to mention a good player would move to the side a bit and shoot then charge. Or just avoid the blob entirely and dismantle the rest of your army since they have such a short range.

Thanks for the responses!

I am the only Eldar or Dark Eldar player in a group, But venoms I definitely need to look out for, However, I could "Look out Sir!" then take saves on any I failed. The archon would have three 2+ tries to avoid dieing.

I was keeping the two troops in reserve, running them into cover when they did come in, and would just go to ground against any shooting. Not immortal, but decent. If they are close that is a ton of shots vs any non vehicle unit.

The harlequins still have restrictions to spotting distance, as well as a 2+ cover, assuming I can give them any cover.

I will say that one of the other deployment options would have been harder, but with short edge deployment the wraithguard form a front line that is very difficult to get around.

I'd hardly call it broken, since so many armies have the tools to deal with it. If someone chose the worst possible option (assaulting it), I can't really call it that impressive. If you decide you want to break a rock by hitting it repeatedly with your chin, you're always going to think a rock is awesome.

An opponent who doesn't have to close with you should be able to rough you up, especially once they understand how tank-sniping works and get comfortable with placing blast templates. Any time they can put AP3 or AP2 wounds into the unit in a way that circumvents the Archon's bodyguarding, the unit it going to feel the pain.

Give it a dozen test games before you declare that you've "won" 40k.

Ghawhaar wrote:Thanks for the responses!

I am the only Eldar or Dark Eldar player in a group, But venoms I definitely need to look out for, However, I could "Look out Sir!" then take saves on any I failed. The archon would have three 2+ tries to avoid dieing.

I was keeping the two troops in reserve, running them into cover when they did come in, and would just go to ground against any shooting. Not immortal, but decent. If they are close that is a ton of shots vs any non vehicle unit.

The harlequins still have restrictions to spotting distance, as well as a 2+ cover, assuming I can give them any cover.

I will say that one of the other deployment options would have been harder, but with short edge deployment the wraithguard form a front line that is very difficult to get around.

you cannot look out sir wounds that have already passed the save unless the other models also have the same save.

Also that unit is so slow, your enemy can manuver around it so that the archon is no longer the closest model and then widdle down the WG.

Sorry, I meant "Look out Sir!" before I take a save. Any passed saves would be taken on a rerollable 3+ on wraithguard. I would only do that for large volumes of fire, such as venoms.

The tactic i used was making a triangle with the Archon at the tip. It maximized the angles that he is in front, but still keeps them decently close together. Yes, moving fully to the side will prevent this, but the angle needed is much larger.

Has anyone played against this style list before? I may be wrong, but I think many people haven't seen the resiliency of it, even in 5th edition it was hard to kill.

Ghawhaar wrote:
Elites
8 Harlequins, Troupe Master, Shadowseer, Death Jester, Harlequin Kisses
7 Harlequins, Troupe Master, Shadowseer, Harlequin Kisses

Run up with a flamer, lot of dead quins. Remaining quins charge, more dead quins to overwatched flamers

Ghawhaar wrote:
Troops
10 Wraithguard w/ Spiritseer
7 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch w/ Dual avenger catapults and Bladestorm

DA arent very good in this list. Shoot them to bits

Ghawhaar wrote:
Heavy Support
3 Warwalkers w/Scatter Lasers

ALLY
Archon w/ Power Weapon (axe), Shadowfield

10 Kabalite Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon

Voidraven Bomber

The kabalite warriors and warwalkers are very easy targets as well.
The void raven can put out some nice damage but after its bombs and missiles are gone, its just 2 lascannons and can be ignored.

Ghawhaar wrote:
This list is absolutely broken. The archon joined the wraithguard unit with eldrad. I was able to position the unit in such a way that the closest model to any shooting was always the archon. This gave me a rerollable 2+ Invulnerable save. This unit took an assault from Black Templar assault terminator squad and did not lose a single model. My opponent conceded after that. That is absolutely ridiculous. I have agreed to simply never play the list again in friendly games, and honestly there is a good chance I won't play it at tournaments.

Is there any way you can see to counter this kind of list? It revolves around denying shooting, tarpitting with the wraithguard until the Avatar or Harlequins mop up. Before last night my friend's BT termies were the best "death star" assault unit our group could field. Yes, it might lose, but it regularily beat anything it could get to.

its strong, as the deathstar is majority T6 so can shrug off bolters but you can get models manuvered around so that the closest model is a wraith guard and shoot him. Or snipe at the them. In assault this unit is far from scary. Sure it might not take many wounds from a lot of things but it wont do too many either.

Yeah, but if he fails one shadow field save (regardless of Look Out Sir!) he loses his shadow field for the rest of the game.

Lots of units can put out enough volume of attacks to make you fail a rerollable 2+ once. It doesn't matter if he dies or not, he's not a threat. A str 4 model that hits at initiative 1? Woohoo!

Harlequins and War Walkers are the only things that really strike me as fantastic about this list. Both got buffed in the current edition and are very tough. Avoiding the Wraithguard block is easy enough, and it's not that great even if you don't avoid it. Take away the archon's shadow field via weight of attacks, or better yet, assault and/or shoot at an angle where he isn't the closest model. One 25 mm base model can't be everywhere at once.

I'm not claiming to "wing 40k"! I don't mean to come of as entirely conceited. I will definitely give this more games to see if it continues to be as strong.

I will say that using weight of attacks to break shadow field is pretty tough when you are rolling against toughness 6.

But yeah, with just a tiny amount of mobility you can shoot wraithguard instead of the archon.

And just to reiterate... you allocate wounds against mixed armor units, not unsaved wounds, so look out sir can't be used after you've made a shadow field attempt.

Cool list idea with allies, thanks for sharing

Shieldbreaker rounds with a vindicare maybe?

Im assuming this is an 1850 , 2k list?

I dont see how he didnt loose any wraithguard models, as they dont have an invul save and close combat allocates base2base, which means you would be hitting non invuld wraithguard with powerfists and pw's.

Its a really good list and I really like it. Harlequins are great in 6th.

the only problem with the list is ordinance, and slow movement for missions.

Ghawhaar wrote:How can you stop Eldrad casting fortune? Rune priests strike me as the only thing, as psychic hoods would no longer work.

Shadow in the Warp.

If I played that list I'd probably drop the Avatar for Karandras, allowing the Wraithguard block to be infiltrated. It's quite a bit harder to avoid them when they're ready to start shooting you on turn one.

That said, torrent of fire should bring the Shadowfield down sooner or later. As has been mentioned, a Vindicare Assassin would die from laughter at the sight of the squad. Null Zone would effectively end your reroll, letting something nasty (preferrably Thunder Hammer Terminators) smash into the block. One failed 2++ and that Archon is splatted.

Yeah, this list doesn't really look broken to me. I'm pretty sure that any decently mobile Necron list would table that army in a couple of turns.

Large blast ordnance. Takes wound allocation away from the front.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One failed 2++ and that Archon is splatted.

Two failed 2++. Hence the reroll.

DarkCorsair wrote:Shieldbreaker rounds with a vindicare maybe?

can you now Look Out Sir the Vindicare?

DarkCorsair wrote:Shieldbreaker rounds with a vindicare maybe?

The wound could be LOS back to a harlee, plus if hes on the board he might be a priority target.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If I played that list I'd probably drop the Avatar for Karandras, allowing the Wraithguard block to be infiltrated. It's quite a bit harder to avoid them when they're ready to start shooting you on turn one.

That said, torrent of fire should bring the Shadowfield down sooner or later. As has been mentioned, a Vindicare Assassin would die from laughter at the sight of the squad. Null Zone would effectively end your reroll, letting something nasty (preferrably Thunder Hammer Terminators) smash into the block. One failed 2++ and that Archon is splatted.

Karandras only conveys his ability's to scorpions, so no you cant have infiltrating wraithguard.

300 Orks say Waaaaagh!

Smitty0305 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If I played that list I'd probably drop the Avatar for Karandras, allowing the Wraithguard block to be infiltrated. It's quite a bit harder to avoid them when they're ready to start shooting you on turn one.

That said, torrent of fire should bring the Shadowfield down sooner or later. As has been mentioned, a Vindicare Assassin would die from laughter at the sight of the squad. Null Zone would effectively end your reroll, letting something nasty (preferrably Thunder Hammer Terminators) smash into the block. One failed 2++ and that Archon is splatted.

Karandras only conveys his ability's to scorpions, so no you cant have infiltrating wraithguard.

Conversely if your going all out to make a deathstar just add Prince Yriel to it he hits suitably hard and gives the reserve ducat. Plus hes another auxiliary target which can be used to take challenges and whatnot.

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One failed 2++ and that Archon is splatted.

Two failed 2++. Hence the reroll.

One failed 2++, hence the Null Zone.

EAnything rerolling a 2+ is gross.

But my bloodthister reminds me consistantly that you can, indeed, fail a 2++ more than once (fought mephy 1v1 once, failed 3 2++, rerolled with weaver, failed all 3 again....).

Also, as many pointed out, things like blasts will completely circumvent your plans (I see vindis, doomsday arks, and leman russes becoming far more common). Not tko mention, a PBS and primaris psyker together can make that huge unit run away on a whim.

Zid wrote:EAnything rerolling a 2+ is gross.

But my bloodthister reminds me consistantly that you can, indeed, fail a 2++ more than once (fought mephy 1v1 once, failed 3 2++, rerolled with weaver, failed all 3 again....).

Also, as many pointed out, things like blasts will completely circumvent your plans (I see vindis, doomsday arks, and leman russes becoming far more common). Not tko mention, a PBS and primaris psyker together can make that huge unit run away on a whim.

Wraithguard, and any character who joins them, are fearless.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Zid wrote:EAnything rerolling a 2+ is gross.

But my bloodthister reminds me consistantly that you can, indeed, fail a 2++ more than once (fought mephy 1v1 once, failed 3 2++, rerolled with weaver, failed all 3 again....).

Also, as many pointed out, things like blasts will completely circumvent your plans (I see vindis, doomsday arks, and leman russes becoming far more common). Not tko mention, a PBS and primaris psyker together can make that huge unit run away on a whim.

Wraithguard, and any character who joins them, are fearless.

One of the telepathy powers removes fearless from a target squad, which will make telepathy psykers a favorite for running off deathstars.