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Zid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Zid wrote:EAnything rerolling a 2+ is gross.

But my bloodthister reminds me consistantly that you can, indeed, fail a 2++ more than once (fought mephy 1v1 once, failed 3 2++, rerolled with weaver, failed all 3 again....).

Also, as many pointed out, things like blasts will completely circumvent your plans (I see vindis, doomsday arks, and leman russes becoming far more common). Not tko mention, a PBS and primaris psyker together can make that huge unit run away on a whim.

Wraithguard, and any character who joins them, are fearless.

One of the telepathy powers removes fearless from a target squad, which will make telepathy psykers a favorite for running off deathstars.

Well this thing will have a farseer so it will be harder to peg that spell on them.

Fire my Triark Stalker at the unit, then hit it with a Twin Linked Doomsday Cannon (Str 9, AP 1, Large Blast). Should do some damage.

lazarian wrote:

Zid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Zid wrote:EAnything rerolling a 2+ is gross.

But my bloodthister reminds me consistantly that you can, indeed, fail a 2++ more than once (fought mephy 1v1 once, failed 3 2++, rerolled with weaver, failed all 3 again....).

Also, as many pointed out, things like blasts will completely circumvent your plans (I see vindis, doomsday arks, and leman russes becoming far more common). Not tko mention, a PBS and primaris psyker together can make that huge unit run away on a whim.

Wraithguard, and any character who joins them, are fearless.

One of the telepathy powers removes fearless from a target squad, which will make telepathy psykers a favorite for running off deathstars.

Well this thing will have a farseer so it will be harder to peg that spell on them.

Harder isn't impossible. I just killed a Wraithlord with Psychic Shriek from a Primaris Psyker through Runes of Warding. Longshots come in, and sticking a spell through Runes of Warding isn't as long a shot as you'd think.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

Harder isn't impossible. I just killed a Wraithlord with Psychic Shriek from a Primaris Psyker through Runes of Warding. Longshots come in, and sticking a spell through Runes of Warding isn't as long a shot as you'd think.

No, and nothing in the game is invulnerable however what you have to look at is the reasonable amount of shots and manpower needed to handle this unit. Archon+Farseer+wraithguard/Harlequins (id use them instead due to stealth/shroud) will take on and survive more than its points usually in shooting and hth.

I was trying to come up with an Eldar/Dark Eldar combo the other day and had similar thoughts. Mine is:

Eldrad
10 Wraithguard, 1 Warlock w Conceal
9 Harlies, Shadowseer
5 Warp Spiders

Archon, Shadowfield, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Nades
5 Wyches w Haywire in Venom
5 Wyches w Haywire in Venom
5 Wyches w Haywire in Venom
5 Wyches w Haywire in Venom

Voidraven
Voidraven
Voidraven

at 2k

I actually think having the other elements makes for a better list. 3 Flyers should be a better counter to enemy flyers. The Wyches aren't great, but haywires wreck armor. Warp Spiders add a nice durable-ish element as well. I like speed in my lists though.

Ghawhaar wrote:Thanks for the responses!

I am the only Eldar or Dark Eldar player in a group, But venoms I definitely need to look out for, However, I could "Look out Sir!" then take saves on any I failed. The archon would have three 2+ tries to avoid dieing.

I was keeping the two troops in reserve, running them into cover when they did come in, and would just go to ground against any shooting. Not immortal, but decent. If they are close that is a ton of shots vs any non vehicle unit.

The harlequins still have restrictions to spotting distance, as well as a 2+ cover, assuming I can give them any cover.

I will say that one of the other deployment options would have been harder, but with short edge deployment the wraithguard form a front line that is very difficult to get around.

Harlequins don't have the spotting distance restriction any more. The FAQ simply changed it to the stealth and shrouded rule. So a 4+ in open ground, that becomes 2+ in any terrain. However, no sight deal.

Fliers - move so they can shoots units other than the archon...

I figure that a unit that can at least tarpit yours in CC is Necron's Royal Disco Inferno. Multiple MSS's will probably own your unit's face like no other.

seapheonix wrote:Harlequins don't have the spotting distance restriction any more. The FAQ simply changed it to the stealth and shrouded rule. So a 4+ in open ground, that becomes 2+ in any terrain. However, no sight deal.

Eldar and DEldar harlies were FAQed differently amusingly.

I would like to point out that the archon has a 3% chance to fail his save, assuming my math is correct.

I think Mind Shackle sounds like it would be very difficult to deal with. Also large blasts expecially ap3 and str 6 and above will be scary, possibly with lash?

The way I have read the FAQ the harlequins have the old Veil of Tears, but with the addition of stealth and shrouded. RAW they took out meaningless fluff sentences 2 and 3, instead of paragraphs 2 and 3.

I also think we may have done the close combat incorrectly. We did it the same as shooting, with prioritizing anything in base contact until it was dead. This meant I could put every wound on the archon until he died, because he was in base contact. Should wounds instead be allocated to the closes model in base contact with units currently attacking? That would make a significant difference, meaning a bunch of wraithguard would have died. I think the next turn would have still seen the terminators (or pretty much anything else) getting wiped from the Avatar, 2 squads of harlequins, the archon, and Eldrad beating on it.

Zid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Zid wrote: Not tko mention, a PBS and primaris psyker together can make that huge unit run away on a whim.

Wraithguard, and any character who joins them, are fearless.

One of the telepathy powers removes fearless from a target squad, which will make telepathy psykers a favorite for running off deathstars.

getting past rune of warding and then the 4+ deny the witch will be tough.


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seapheonix wrote:

Ghawhaar wrote:Thanks for the responses!

I am the only Eldar or Dark Eldar player in a group, But venoms I definitely need to look out for, However, I could "Look out Sir!" then take saves on any I failed. The archon would have three 2+ tries to avoid dieing.

I was keeping the two troops in reserve, running them into cover when they did come in, and would just go to ground against any shooting. Not immortal, but decent. If they are close that is a ton of shots vs any non vehicle unit.

The harlequins still have restrictions to spotting distance, as well as a 2+ cover, assuming I can give them any cover.

I will say that one of the other deployment options would have been harder, but with short edge deployment the wraithguard form a front line that is very difficult to get around.

Harlequins don't have the spotting distance restriction any more. The FAQ simply changed it to the stealth and shrouded rule. So a 4+ in open ground, that becomes 2+ in any terrain. However, no sight deal.

actually the current FAQ gives them both +3 cover save AND the spotting distance thing.

Demolisher cannon, or battlecannon, or basilisk, or anything else of the high S, low AP large blast family.

Deathstar turns into a deadstar.

dakka+dakka

The list is hardly broken. Your deathstar costs near 700 points and thus will be facing multiple units. A sensible opponent will position his models so that the Archon can only absorb hits from one of them. The deathstar is slow and has only 12 inch ranged weapons, so avoiding it is also easy. With 5/6 games being objective based, even deathstars in general are very hot. There are also plenty of easy counters like tarpitting the unit with a boyz/gaunt horde or using helions to pull out the archon.

That said, the overall concept of fortuning an eldar unit with a shadowfield-wielding IC is quite powerful. The baron is probably the best candidate as he grants a unit tons of special abilities in addition to his shadowfield meatshield at a low cost and can keep up 12 inch moves.

Exergy wrote: actually the current FAQ gives them both +3 cover save AND the spotting distance thing.

This is technically correct, Read As Written, assuming you're using the English language rules (apparently the other ones got it right). But since it's very clear that that's not what was intended... I think trying to claim both would be a slappable offence.

What to do about 'Dark Eldar Harlequins' is more difficult. I guess it's up to the player- keep them with the old rules, or explain to the opponent that since they're exactly the same thing as 'Eldar Harlequins' they should get the 4+ instead.

What I don't get is how the OP's unit avoids casualties in close combat. Wraithguard are tough but surely an assaulty deathstar can take them reasonably easily...

Slappable offense because I read only the rules that are in my language? At first I thought it was kinda weird that they changed the rules that way, RAW. However, the end result is a much more concise rule. They took out sentences that were superflous.

In close combat the archon was in base contact and therefore the closes model, tied for being the closest model. Was that done incorrectly? If so, this unit is much easier to deal with. TH/SS termies will do very well against the wraithguard, but once they are gone it will still be difficult to deal with. It will also be fearless due to the Avatar.


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Frontline Gaming has a very similar list run. Same basic unit, with harlequins instead of wraithguard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSfyJ5bQgZE&feature=g-u-u

Assault with 9 bases of Nuglings. Point. Laugh. This works even better in a Tally list where they quickly are wounding on a 2+, with a 3+ FnP backing their 5+ invulnerable. EW makes them immune to Instant Death, so they can't be deprived of either roll. Do you think you can do 27 wounds through a 5+ and a 3+?

I thought you couldn't fortune an archon, as is the traditional reading, Dark Eldar and Eldar are not semantically the same when reading powers.

You may be working with battle brothers, but the power is specifically worded so that it is not just working on a friendly unit, it is working on an eldar unit. Given that it works on Wraith units and tanks and such, it also probably is not referring to the species, but the army book.

Wouldn't Fateweaver with Boon of Mutation turn him into a spawn on roll of 5+ by the Archon?
No armor save.
No invule save.
Straight up turned into spawn.

Rampage wrote:Additionally, if you can get some decent Psychic defence down to stop Eldrad from Fortuning the squad, you can try and get the Archon to fail his Shadowfield and thus lose it. Once you have stopped the casting you need to pile as many shots as you can into the squad and torrent it from angles that will allow you to hit the Archon. Difficult I know, but not impossible.

How do you stop people from casting powers on their own units?


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DarkCorsair wrote:Venom spam would easily down the list.

Pour splinter shots into the unit till the shadowfield breaks (only need to cause 36 wounds, one round of shooting from all the venoms would do it) and then hit the archon with a single dark lance. The DE army can easily avoid the units, and open up on the rest of the squad next round.

There are a few problems with this

* Venomspam has many counters now. Sure, you might trump this list, but then you would get your ass handed to you by a GK or Necron.

* He can always 'Look out sir' off the archon if your spamming him and just take those hits on Eldrad or a wraithguard.

You stop people from buffing their own units with rune priests, or by bringing your own farseers.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:One failed 2++, hence the Null Zone.

Remember Null zone has to deal with runes of warding. That's a 50% failure rate and 1/3 of perils on yourself.


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DaddyWarcrimes wrote:You stop people from buffing their own units with rune priests, or by bringing your own farseers.

Rune priests are the most reliable. Eldrad has runes of witnessing which helps to counter the farseer drawback or shadows of the warp.

Lucre wrote:I thought you couldn't fortune an archon, as is the traditional reading, Dark Eldar and Eldar are not semantically the same when reading powers.

You may be working with battle brothers, but the power is specifically worded so that it is not just working on a friendly unit, it is working on an eldar unit. Given that it works on Wraith units and tanks and such, it also probably is not referring to the species, but the army book.

Dito. Just like effects targeting Space Marines in C:SM wouldn't aply to Space Wolves. Although both SM and SW are Space Marines fluffwise and even share "Space" in their name, rulewise they are different army books/codices and thus as different as say Necrons and Tau.

That leaves Epidemius + Death Guard as the only seriously broken combo-shenigan you can pull off with the allies system.

6thEd IC rules state that when a character joins a unit he becomes part of that unit; The Archon joins and becomes part of the wraithguard unit, which is a codex: eldar unit. Eldrad in a wrack unit would likewise be considered part of a codex: dark eldar unit.

Don't know if this has been mentioned before but I was under the impression that if an Archon failed his 2+ once it counted as having failed it regardless.

Eldar Codex Fortune
"A unit re-rolls any failed save"

Dark Eldar Codex Shadow field
"...but if the save is ever failed, the field is destroyed altogether"

So in my opinion one failed 2+ destroys the shadowfield fortune or no fortune

That's a dangerous interpretation.

If any save is ever failed the model takes a wound too.

alspal8me wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned before but I was under the impression that if an Archon failed his 2+ once it counted as having failed it regardless.

Eldar Codex Fortune
"A unit re-rolls any failed save"

Dark Eldar Codex Shadow field
"...but if the save is ever failed, the field is destroyed altogether"

So in my opinion one failed 2+ destroys the shadowfield fortune or no fortune

Breaks precedent with the actual wound rules, and with Gets Hot! which says that a re-roll can avoid the burnination.

The Fortune rule says, "Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer. This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes untilt he start of the next Eldar turn."

I believe the shadowfield is worded so that if you make a fnp save after failing, the shadowfield is still destroyed. Fortune gives a second chance to avoid failing the save. If the second roll is made, you did not fail the save.

The archon may benefit from fortune because he is a part of the eldar unit that has gained fortune. Fortune may not be cast upon Dark Eldar units, but any model part of an Eldar unit benefits. I make no claim that Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same race. A tau ic that joined the unit would also benefit, as they are also Battle Brothers and can join allied units of Eldar.

It is realy a simple matter of outflanking and outnumbering.

Simply coming from opposite sides with two high ap units would do it. Either that or ignore the unit and kill everything else. You dont need the unstoppable force to get past the immovable object, you just have to go around. The unit has no teeth. The most annoying thing you can do with it is hold one of only two objectives with it. Even then you just throw a tarpit at it for denial.

Ghawhaar wrote:The Fortune rule says, "Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer. This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes untilt he start of the next Eldar turn."

I believe the shadowfield is worded so that if you make a fnp save after failing, the shadowfield is still destroyed. Fortune gives a second chance to avoid failing the save. If the second roll is made, you did not fail the save.

The archon may benefit from fortune because he is a part of the eldar unit that has gained fortune. Fortune may not be cast upon Dark Eldar units, but any model part of an Eldar unit benefits. I make no claim that Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same race. A tau ic that joined the unit would also benefit, as they are also Battle Brothers and can join allied units of Eldar.

if you reroll something, it never happened


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Green is Best! wrote:Wouldn't Fateweaver with Boon of Mutation turn him into a spawn on roll of 5+ by the Archon?
No armor save.
No invule save.
Straight up turned into spawn.

but you have to cast it on 3d6, and the archon gets a 4+ deny the witch


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DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Assault with 9 bases of Nuglings. Point. Laugh. This works even better in a Tally list where they quickly are wounding on a 2+, with a 3+ FnP backing their 5+ invulnerable. EW makes them immune to Instant Death, so they can't be deprived of either roll. Do you think you can do 27 wounds through a 5+ and a 3+?

this list denies kills. where are you going to start your tally? Which 2+ rerollable save are you going to get 10 wounds out of?