Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Banshee masks were written for 4th edition, and don't actually have any functionality in 5th-6th edition. But, assuming banshee masks let you strike at initiative 10, wouldn't power axes actually be a buff?
They would be strength 4, initiative 10 on the first round, and guidable.

no, power axes swing at initiative 1.

Banshee Masks make you I10. Unwieldy makes you strike at I1. Your I doesn't matter.

Codex trumps rulebook, so banshee masks would have you strike at Initiative 10...but sad times when you charge into cover.

scuddman wrote: Codex trumps rulebook, so banshee masks would have you strike at Initiative 10...but sad times when you charge into cover.

codex can trump rulebook all it wants. Banshees are I10.

They then use a weapon that only strikes at I1. Doesn't matter that they are I10, they hit at I1.

That makes no sense. The initiative 10 from the special rule from a codex would overwrite unwieldy. There is no stipulation in the rulebook that doesn't allow you to do that.

scuddman wrote:That makes no sense. The initiative 10 from the special rule from a codex would overwrite unwieldy. There is no stipulation in the rulebook that doesn't allow you to do that.

makes perfect sense. Instead of using the initiative of the model when using a power axe, you swing at initiative 1.

The initiative of the banshees could be 1000. Makes no difference. The axe swings at I1.

scuddman wrote:That makes no sense. The initiative 10 from the special rule from a codex would overwrite unwieldy. There is no stipulation in the rulebook that doesn't allow you to do that.

Yes there is. You're I10, but Unwieldy doesn't care about what Initiative you have, it always strikes at I1. You're still buffed to I10, it just doesn't matter.

Where does it say that?

scuddman wrote:Where does it say that?

In the rulebook.

It says that a model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative 1, unless a monstrous creature or a walker. Why would it overwrite the banshee mask?

scuddman wrote:It says that a model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative 1, unless a monstrous creature or a walker. Why would it overwrite the banshee mask?

its NOT overwriting the banshee mask.

you need to understand this.

The initiative of the user DOESNT MATTER.

no matter what, you swing at initiative 1 with the axe, just as the rule says.

It doesn't say no matter what. It says a model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative 1. It applies a set value, as listed in multiple modifiers on p.2. If it sets a set value, and banshee masks set a set value, then codex trumps rulebook.

You roll off for it. They both set your initiative to different values, so you roll off for which one takes precedence.

1) All the banshee mask does is raise the initiative of the banshee. Agree?

2) The power axe swings at initiative 1. Agree?

If it was as you say, then everyone would use their initiative with the axe, because at no point is there any rule that says you swing with the axe at higher than initiative 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:
You roll off for it. They both set your initiative to different values, so you roll off for which one takes precedence.

The power axe isn't setting your initiative equal to anything.

It simply doesn't use your initiative at all.

Instead of swinging with the models initiative, you swing at I1.

Horst wrote:

The power axe isn't setting your initiative equal to anything.

It simply doesn't use your initiative at all.

Instead of swinging with the models initiative, you swing at I1.

Model's initiative="swing at" initiative. The terms are synonymous.

Banshee masks don't raise the initiative. It sets it to 10 on the first round. It doesn't trump cover because the rule specificly mentions (no modifiers when charging with the exception of grenades).
On p.2 for multiple modifiers, the rulebook clarifies what modifiers are. It specificly states to finally apply any set values. So if you were +2 initiative and using unwieldy, you would strike at Initaitive 1 because you apply set values last.
But banshee masks are different because they also apply a set value.

The banshee mask doesn't do what the OP contends it does. For example, it has nothing to do with when you swing a weapon:

"a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover cover and grenades."

If you're swinging a power fist, it doesn't care that you might usually be I4. If you're swinging a power axe, it doesn't care that you're usually I10. You still swing at I1.

If you're looking for a weapon upgrade, spears are probably about it.

DarknessEternal wrote:The banshee mask doesn't do what the OP contends it does. For example, it has nothing to do with when you swing a weapon:

"a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover cover and grenades."

If you're swinging a power fist, it doesn't care that you might usually be I4. If you're swinging a power axe, it doesn't care that you're usually I10. You still swing at I1.

If you're looking for a weapon upgrade, spears are probably about it.

No because the Banshees are usually initiative 5(I think, maybe 6). The Banshee mask sets it to 10, and the PF/PA sets it to 1. So roll off to see which takes precedence.

Yea, I don't get why this is so confusing.

They have the exact same rule as power fists. You wouldn't contend that fists swing at I10 (if banshees could take them), would you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The banshee mask doesn't do what the OP contends it does. For example, it has nothing to do with when you swing a weapon:

"a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover cover and grenades."

If you're swinging a power fist, it doesn't care that you might usually be I4. If you're swinging a power axe, it doesn't care that you're usually I10. You still swing at I1.

If you're looking for a weapon upgrade, spears are probably about it.

No because the Banshees are usually initiative 5(I think, maybe 6). The Banshee mask sets it to 10, and the PF/PA sets it to 1. So roll off to see which takes precedence.

where the hell are you getting this roll off idea?

The PF/PA always swings at I1. PERIOD. END OF STORY. GOOD DAY SIR.

If that's so, then banshee masks don't actually do anything. The reason why power fists trump initiative modifiers are defined on p. 2. You apply set values last. The banshee mask applies a set value.

Horst wrote:Yea, I don't get why this is so confusing.

They have the exact same rule as power fists. You wouldn't contend that fists swing at I10 (if banshees could take them), would you?

No I'd say they rolled off.

Horst wrote:

Testify wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The banshee mask doesn't do what the OP contends it does. For example, it has nothing to do with when you swing a weapon:

"a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover cover and grenades."

If you're swinging a power fist, it doesn't care that you might usually be I4. If you're swinging a power axe, it doesn't care that you're usually I10. You still swing at I1.

If you're looking for a weapon upgrade, spears are probably about it.

No because the Banshees are usually initiative 5(I think, maybe 6). The Banshee mask sets it to 10, and the PF/PA sets it to 1. So roll off to see which takes precedence.

where the hell are you getting this roll off idea?

The PF/PA always swings at I1. PERIOD. END OF STORY. GOOD DAY SIR.

Aaaand the Banshee masks always swing at I10. Hence, roll off.

I would in fact say that banshees could strike with fists at initiative 10. Otherwise banshee masks don't do anything. That's the reason why they aren't allowed to take any.

scuddman wrote:If that's so, then banshee masks don't actually do anything. The reason why power fists trump initiative modifiers are defined on p. 2. You apply set values last. The banshee mask applies a set value.

Banshee masks do plenty, as long as your not swinging a weapon that always goes at initiative 1.

Horst wrote:

scuddman wrote:If that's so, then banshee masks don't actually do anything. The reason why power fists trump initiative modifiers are defined on p. 2. You apply set values last. The banshee mask applies a set value.

Banshee masks do plenty, as long as your not swinging a weapon that always goes at initiative 1.

Unweildy: "A model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1".
Note the lack of the word "always".
As I say, two set modifiers calls for a roll-off, there is a clear RAW precedent.

Banshee masks do not say you're initiative 10 as long as you aren't swinging a weapon that always goes at initaitve 1. They set it to initiative 10. If we're gonna use a precedent, the high elf version of it trumps great weapons in warhammer fantasy. Yes, I know different game, but similar situation.

scuddman wrote:Banshee masks do not say you're initiative 10 as long as you aren't swinging a weapon that always goes at initaitve 1. They set it to initiative 10. If we're gonna use a precedent, the high elf version of it trumps great weapons in warhammer fantasy. Yes, I know different game, but similar situation.

Don't ever do this. This is irrelevant, and merely saying this will cause all sorts of useless discussion.

Everyone ignore this. Any rules in WHFB are irrelevant, and we should all know better than to cite it.

To be fair I think it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Ok... if what you guys are saying is true, then power axes never swing at initiative 1. Because the models always have a higher initiative.

Think about it. All the mask does is make your initiative higher. So what? Your initiative does not matter. You swing at initiative 1 with a power axe.

Fair enough. This is the rule I'm quoting:
p. 2: Multiple Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.
For example, if a model with strength 4 has both +1 strength and double strength, its final strength is 9 (4*2=8, 8+1=9(. If a model with strength 4 has both +1 strength and strength 8 (i.e., a set value), its final strength is 8 (ignore +1 strength and set it at 8). "

This is why normally unwieldy trumps modifiers...because it applies a set value. So you can be +5 strength, double strength, whatever, but the set is applied last.

My point though, is that banshee masks also apply a set value..

Now that being said, Banshee masks do not, raw, trump charging through cover. That is because on p. 22 the rule says:
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at initatiative step 1, regardless of other initiative modifiers.

I do note, that unwieldy has no such rule attached to it at all.