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Banshee masks do not set your initiative to 10. I quoted the rules.

Also, why is this in Tactics?

scuddman wrote:My point though, is that banshee masks also apply a set value..

To the model not to the Weapon! The Power Axe strikes at Initiative STEP 1 not at the model's Initiative value. It's not that complex.

The Assault Phase is fought in Initiative Steps and the Power Axe is Unwieldy - " A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1..." thus it does not strike at models Initiative value. If the rule was "A model attacking with this weapon has an Initiative Value of 1" then you'd be right.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Because whether this works or not makes or breaks banshees. Without it, there's no reason to take them. They're just awful even with the way I'm contending they work, but they're hopeless without it.

RubberJonny wrote:

scuddman wrote:My point though, is that banshee masks also apply a set value..

To the model not to the Weapon! The Power Axe strikes at Initiative STEP 1 not at the model's Initiative value. It's not that complex.

The Assault Phase is fought in Initiative Steps and the Power Axe is Unwieldy - " A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1..." thus it does not strike at models Initiative value. If the rule was "A model attacking with this weapon has an Initiative Value of 1" then you'd be right.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Initiative value=initiative step. They're the same thing.

Testify wrote:Initiative value=initiative step. They're the same thing.

Not strictly true. You use the models Initiative to determine in which step they attack but the Unweildy Special Rule over rules the model's Initiative Value.

@scuddman - Feth it. It states in the Rule Book that it is supposed to be just a guid line and that it is more important you have fun. Just ask your opponents if they are okay with it before you both choose your lists.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

scuddman wrote:Because whether this works or not makes or breaks banshees. Without it, there's no reason to take them. They're just awful even with the way I'm contending they work, but they're hopeless without it.

Yes, Str 4, AP 2, Initiative 10 Attack sounds just AWFUL

RubberJonny wrote:

Testify wrote:Initiative value=initiative step. They're the same thing.

Not strictly true. You use the models Initiative to determine in which step they attack but the Unweildy Special Rule over rules the model's Initiative Value.

Right, but so does the banshee mask. They're both set modifiers, one isn't more special or important than the other, and the rulebook clearly dictates a roll-off.

Actually the BRB says if there is an initiative conflict due to wargear or powers you roll off for it. So by rules banshees with power axes can hit on I10 but only on a 4+.

Im firmly in the initiative 1 camp. The mask and unwieldy might both be set values but they are not setting the value for the same thing as others have pointed out. Masks make banshees I10, unwieldy DOES NOT make banshees I1, it tells you instead rather explicitly that the weapon makes its attacks at initiative 1. In other words banshees can attack at I10 without the benefits of their weapon or at I1 with those benefits, its quite simple once you eliminate bias.... a,nd for the record i play eldar.

I just want the banshee mask to mess with opponents initiative. It would make so much more sense that way.

It seems so foolish to me that a banshee creates an oppertunitity by stunning it's prey with a cry but then is so uncomfortable with her weapon that she takes that moment and several more to strike at her enemy. The fluff in this is really not reflected in the rules. The mask really ought to be a debuff, even a banshee with a power fist should AT LEAST strike at the same time as the moron she screamed at.

Poor crappy banshees. They don't do anything particularly important, and what they do, they manage awkwardly

chaos0xomega wrote:Im firmly in the initiative 1 camp. The mask and unwieldy might both be set values but they are not setting the value for the same thing as others have pointed out. Masks make banshees I10, unwieldy DOES NOT make banshees I1, it tells you instead rather explicitly that the weapon makes its attacks at initiative 1. In other words banshees can attack at I10 without the benefits of their weapon or at I1 with those benefits, its quite simple once you eliminate bias.... a,nd for the record i play eldar.

Man speaks the truth! preach!

chaos0xomega wrote:Im firmly in the initiative 1 camp. The mask and unwieldy might both be set values but they are not setting the value for the same thing as others have pointed out. Masks make banshees I10, unwieldy DOES NOT make banshees I1, it tells you instead rather explicitly that the weapon makes its attacks at initiative 1. In other words banshees can attack at I10 without the benefits of their weapon or at I1 with those benefits, its quite simple once you eliminate bias.... a,nd for the record i play eldar.

I'd go further than this... unwieldy doesn't even set a value, it says 'attacks at Initiative STAGE 1'. So, as people have been saying, it makes the model's initiative irrelevent. Whatever the value, it hits at stage 1, i.e. last. It's the same wording as the attacking through difficult terrain rules ('fight at initiative stage 1'), although those obviously shouldn't apply to Banshees. But since that STILL hasn't been addressed in the Eldar FAQ... that is something to negotiate with the opponent.

Can banshees even take axes?

The way i see it is, they both work.

Banshee mask makes the Banshee I10 for the first round of combat.
The axe, like a fist, forces you to swing at I1


So a natural I10 model is a Keeper of secrets. In bizarro world, I gave my keeper of secrets a powerfist.
His initiative is 10, but his wargear makes him swing at I1. Like a SM sarge with a fist- he's I4, but the fist forces him to swing at I1.

So the mask makes the banshee's I10, but if they have an axe, the axe forces them to swing at I1 regardless if they are I2 or I9000+

So banshee with sword and mask-I10
Stave and mask-I10
Axe and mask-I1
Chainfist and mask-I1
Thunderhammer and mask (TH banshees. oh yeah!)-I1
Chainsword and mask-I10
handheld rock and mask-I10
powerfist and mask-I1


is the way i see it.

Gents, this is Tactics, not YMDC.

How about we talk about how Banshees can be useful in this edition?

In the FAQ, there is a similar question about the Tyranid upgrade that sets your initiative to 1(can't remember the name off the top of my head) and asks if the banshee mask sets it to 10 to which the answer is yes, it does.

I'm firmly in the roll it off camp, if you so choose. But personally, I wouldn't waste mine and my opponent's time on that, seeing as Banshees really have no place in the Eldar lists nowadays. If you really want CC units, take Harlequins and/or DE allies and bring a squad of Wyches in a Raider. Can assault out of the vehicle AND is scoring unit. Much better.

Araenion wrote:
I wouldn't waste mine and my opponent's time on that, seeing as Banshees really have no place in the Eldar lists nowadays. If you really want CC units, take Harlequins and/or DE allies and bring a squad of Wyches in a Raider. Can assault out of the vehicle AND is scoring unit. Much better.

Yup basically Eldar CC units are too expensive to walk anywhere add in a transport you cant assault from = dead eldar CC unit. Take DE if you really want CC, Harlequins are still nice a a bunker but not nearly as useful as they were last edition.

After reading and re-reading all the relevant rules, I believe a Banshee would 'roll-off' as described by some of the posters here. (Though I completely understand the POV of the init 1 supporters, and hope this is FAQ'd to remove all doubt.

My reasoning is as follows -

Init Steps: A model's Init value determines when it attacks in close combat.

At the start of each init step, models with init equal to the current step but not in base to base pile in.

Models make their attack when their init step is reached.

These three sentences by themselves show how modifying your init definitely has a strong effect on when you strike. So - how do things like Power fists or unwieldy weapons that strike at Init Stage 1 work? Do they modify the models Init value (seems logical), or do they just change the Stage that the model swings at?

Luckily, GW answers this in the rules "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a models Initiative." It then goes on with an example of how a Powerfist Seargent causes the bearer to attack at initiative step one.

Clearly - GW meant these unwieldy rules to work as an initiative modifier - as is written in the rules and further defined with an example.

This means the unwieldy weapon 'essentially' modifies your Init to 1, whilst the mask modifies it to 10. As both are trying to modify your init to a set value, you roll off as per the rules.

Otherwise you get silly situations occurring where models pile in and attack at diffferent stages of the combat, making it all very hard to keep track of.

Now that you cant disembark and charge without an assault vehicle no matter what. Banshees will have a hard time surviving to get into melee. Overwatch isnt helping either.

Jetseer with Autarch carrying a Power Axe sounds good, if they challenge you can send the farseer.
Or Seer counsil with a Archon, fortune works for the shadow field right?

Yeah, no matter how I look at it, harlequins do the job better. With 2+ cover, 2+ isave with an archon, flip belts, and rerolls on rending and saves with doom and fortune, I think harlequins are the way to go. I can't see a possible way to make banshees work now that they can't charge out of a serpent. At least scorpions have infiltrate, and with 2d6 charge have a good chance at a guranteeed turn 2 charge. Banhees have to foot slog, and with 4+ armor, they're pretty free against heavy flamers and heavy bolters.

I'm in the roll off camp.

My reason being is that both set a value for when the model attacks.

Sarges with P-fists don't attempt sweeping advances on I1. Banshees (that win with the first round of combat) don't attempt sweeping advances on I10 (as I understand it, I don't play Eldar but my buddy does and I've never seen them sweep with an I10).

Both of these pieces of wargear/weapons only adjust when the model actually attacks, and neither effect anything else that has to do with initiative. Both have a set value. Thus you roll for it.

On the tactical note, I am really surprised that the Falcon didn't get FAQed to have assault ramps. Eldar have zero options for trying to stay safe before an assault under the new rules. I thought they would have gotten thrown a bone or something.

As is, the only thing I can think they can use for protection is fortune and disembark into 4+ cover and wait it out for a turn. The options really do suck for them. Or just take something nastier that the opponent will have to deal with and just ignore them. Then just use them as a clean-up unit.

If the banshee was using a special "Banshee Power Axe" that was I10 in the first round of combat, it would work, as it is now, the weapon's I value is when you attack.

I guess your best choice for a mech assault unit is to ally Dark Eldar, and put wyches/incubi/whatever in a raider or a venom.

THat being said...would people have a problem with banshees becoming count as incubi? Or Succubi? Or Wyches?

scuddman wrote:I guess your best choice for a mech assault unit is to ally Dark Eldar, and put wyches/incubi/whatever in a raider or a venom.

THat being said...would people have a problem with banshees becoming count as incubi? Or Succubi? Or Wyches?

Generally, as long as a model has wargear its supposed to, and can't be confused with another similar model on the field, you can use counts - as for whatever you want.

So, just don't field 1 squad of banshees, then 1 squad of banshees as counts as incubi, and you should be OK.

This is one of those confusing moments.
Unwieldly=Set Value
Banshee Mask=Set Value

pg 2 says "If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with strength 4 has both +1 strength and double strength, its final strength is 9 (4*2=8, 8+1=9(. If a model with strength 4 has both +1 strength and strength 8 (i.e., a set value), its final strength is 8 (ignore +1 strength and set it at 8). "

So, it is confusing.

But, if this rulebook says codex trumps rulebook in moments like these (similary to last edition) then I10 Power Axes
Of course, that is getting close to TFG territory.

IF this rulebook doesn't say something similar, Rulebook trumps codex

If anyone can find where it says codex trumps rulebook, the I10 power axes.
If no one can, then they are still I1

So, in other words, you may want to reconsider all the swords you just clipped off your models to convert them to axes...

buddha wrote:Actually the BRB says if there is an initiative conflict due to wargear or powers you roll off for it. So by rules banshees with power axes can hit on I10 but only on a 4+.

Wait, if this is true, then this is what you do.

I'm not saying your lying, it's just I haven't read my BRB yet

Considering that the Banshee profile states that they are armed with "power weapons", what's to stop Generic Player A from simply cutting off half the swords and replacing them with axes, that way a unit of 10 Banshees with 5 swords and 5 axes could be pretty flexible, with the Swordshees taking the wounds first and the Axeshees striking afterward.

But swords or axes, they're still failshees.

Dr. Delorean wrote:Considering that the Banshee profile states that they are armed with "power weapons", what's to stop Generic Player A from simply cutting off half the swords and replacing them with axes, that way a unit of 10 Banshees with 5 swords and 5 axes could be pretty flexible, with the Swordshees taking the wounds first and the Axeshees striking afterward.

Problem with that is when you step up.
Init10 Sword banshees strike 1st.
Then Banshees Step up (init5).
Enemy strikes next, killing sword banshees.
Finally, Axeshees would swing, but aren't in base to base, or within 2" of a model in base to base, because Swordshees died at init 4 to marine chain swords.
Better to convert them to the dark side, and run them as Incubi. Open topped transports, and much better character support, along with better armor, and power from the pain.

Poor banshees. Even if they scored they wouldn't be worth taking.

-Matt