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And incubi can take plasma grenades. Sadface that the banshee special wargear sucks.

Poor banshees. Even if they scored they wouldn't be worth taking.

Hurr hurr hurr, banshees "scoring".


Anyway, I'll just let myself out...

scuddman wrote:And incubi can take plasma grenades.

No they can't. Unless you mean by adding an expensive HQ choice that is in no way related to Incubi.

Doesn't the Necron FAQ address this:

"Q: If a model with whip coals is in base contact with a model with an Intiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.) which order are the initiatives modifed? (p44)

A: As a 'set value modifier' the whip coils effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each fight sub-phase."

My question here is the wording on unwieldy. it doesn't adjust the users Initiative at all. It just says someone using this weapon strikes at initiative 1, so even with the initiative 10 mask, the weapon still strikes on a 1.

but...

if it isn't changing the intitiative of the user to 1, then wouldn't power fist users have their normal initiative too (while still striking last)? so people would pile in on their normal I value and then strike on an Initiative 1. Or try to sweeping advance at the users 'I' not the weapons.

Just sounds wrong.

This also brings up the situation of "Do weapons have 'I' values?" According to the wording on unwieldy it would seem so, though probably not the intention.

first off... you're adding in a power axe when the model had a power sword to start with ... ok i guess thats a moeling choice and makes some sense at they gain a str and ap2

but seeing as a power sword strieks at initiative and a power axe strikes at I1 even with maskes your striking at I1... though if you sin combat and are sweeping advance you'd be doign so at initiative 10 so hey there is that.

really as stated banshees are so bad at this point i wouldn't bother changing my current models. last edition they were paladin killers but now at I1 if they want ap2... i'll just take harlies .. better models anyway

I don't see why this is being argued this much, the answer is plainly obvious. Having a Power Axe doesn't modify the model's initiative at all, and the BRB never stipulates as such. In fact, it only indirectly mentions the Initiative characteristic at all -- instead it quite clearly states that models using a power axe strike at Initiative Step 1. Those saying otherwise might[ have a leg to stand on if the rules were written to say "Models using a power axe have their Initiative changed to 1", but it doesn't say that. It makes no mention of the model's Initiative stat; it plainly says the models strike at Initiative Step 1. Banshees still have I10; they simply strike at Initiative Step 1 with an axe, clear as day.

Gangrel767 wrote:My question here is the wording on unwieldy. it doesn't adjust the users Initiative at all. It just says someone using this weapon strikes at initiative 1, so even with the initiative 10 mask, the weapon still strikes on a 1.

but...

if it isn't changing the intitiative of the user to 1, then wouldn't power fist users have their normal initiative too (while still striking last)? so people would pile in on their normal I value and then strike on an Initiative 1. Or try to sweeping advance at the users 'I' not the weapons.

Just sounds wrong.

This also brings up the situation of "Do weapons have 'I' values?" According to the wording on unwieldy it would seem so, though probably not the intention.

You do sweep at your unmodified initiative. So yeah, a unit comprised of nothing but powerfists sweeps at base initiative.

Falconlance wrote:

Gangrel767 wrote:My question here is the wording on unwieldy. it doesn't adjust the users Initiative at all. It just says someone using this weapon strikes at initiative 1, so even with the initiative 10 mask, the weapon still strikes on a 1.

but...

if it isn't changing the intitiative of the user to 1, then wouldn't power fist users have their normal initiative too (while still striking last)? so people would pile in on their normal I value and then strike on an Initiative 1. Or try to sweeping advance at the users 'I' not the weapons.

Just sounds wrong.

This also brings up the situation of "Do weapons have 'I' values?" According to the wording on unwieldy it would seem so, though probably not the intention.

You do sweep at your unmodified initiative. So yeah, a unit comprised of nothing but powerfists sweeps at base initiative.

Fair enough. Doesn't invalidate my question though. Also, thanks for pointing that out, as it forced me to reread the assault phase.

Banshees are bad even with I10 axes but what about an Autarch with a banshee mask and axe?

Testify wrote:

Horst wrote:

scuddman wrote:If that's so, then banshee masks don't actually do anything. The reason why power fists trump initiative modifiers are defined on p. 2. You apply set values last. The banshee mask applies a set value.

Banshee masks do plenty, as long as your not swinging a weapon that always goes at initiative 1.

Unweildy: "A model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1".
Note the lack of the word "always".
As I say, two set modifiers calls for a roll-off, there is a clear RAW precedent.

Unweildy isn't a modifer though. The wording says that you attack at initiative step one. So regardless of your initiative, you will be making attacks with that weapon at the initiative step of those with initiative 1. Whereas the Banshee mask just alters your initiative, which is subsequently not used for determining which step the power axe user gets to attack at.

EDIT: Hm, realise now that I managed to be blind to two whole pages of thread.

I still have my money on TH/SS Terminators. Bring as many axes, spears, swords, or nuclear weapons that you can strike with at I10.