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Avoiding Terrain when charging.
Ok what I have here is a question about the reference to avoiding terrain when charging on page 21 heading “Charge Move”- sub heading “Moving Charging Models”- which states
“Charging units must attempt to engage as many opposing models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back or trying to avoid terrain!”

Now my question is that the underlined text which states no trying to avoid terrain is a blanket rule when moving charging models, or a restriction in which no avoiding where it would cause models to no longer come into Base to Base contact.

So basically what I’m getting at is the “no holding back or trying to avoid terrain!” mandatory, like this
1. You cannot avoid terrain if it would cause you to lose potential Base to Base contact with enemy models.
which would mean that you can try to avoid terrain If it does not cause you to lose potential B2B contact with models, and that you are only subjective to the last part if you fail to do so.
OR
2. Generic overall encompassing rule meaning that if there is terrain between models it forces the player to move a through it, no matter what.

Because thier are certain scenarios where a model has the potential to not have to go trhough difficult terrain if the potential roll is high enough.

1. You cannot avoid terrain if it would cause you to lose potential Base to Base contact with enemy models.

If a full distance charge will get your model into btb with his model in terrain, you have to roll. Same as it was in 5th and IIRC in 4th.

don_mondo wrote:1. You cannot avoid terrain if it would cause you to lose potential Base to Base contact with enemy models.

If a full distance charge will get your model into btb with his model in terrain, you have to roll. Same as it was in 5th and IIRC in 4th.

What happens in this situation where the charge range depending on the would influence ones requirrement to have to or not have to enter terrain to assualt?
Because as you see the potential to not have to enter terrain is there so can the bluee marines charge the marines on the far right moving like a Knight in chess which would mean that they nobody would have to enter terrain.

Do people understand where I coming from with this, in this situation the player does not have to enter terrain or move through it to gett all models into B2B contact with the enemy meaning that he would not have to test ofr Difficult terrain.

Don't know the answer. Very interested in opinions [bump].

Ps take it that all the models in the picture are the same squad, was just using colour for the sake of less confusion.

I brought this up in another thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/460818.page (scroll to the bottom where my crappy diagrams are)

Personally, I think you are forced to move through the terrain, even if you would still get the same number of models in base to base as you would if you avoided the terrain. However, I can see an argument overriding that based on the context of the rule, so it's not one I would be too pushy on.

I answered pretty comprehensively in that thread, too:

Make a mental note of how far each model has moved, and if it turns out you do need to difficult terrain you can roll the extra dice and move models back if it turns out that the charge has failed.

In your example:

As long as all the marines can get into base contact while going around terrain, then no test is needed.

If they can not get into base while going around terrain, but could get into base while going through the terrain, then you need to test.

If they can not get into base while going around terrain, and can not get into base while going through the terrain, then you do not need to test.

Ok so it sounds like avoiding terrain is ok aslong as it does not interfere with the amount of models in B2B in the end.
Secondly for judging when to take a Difficult terrain test, how to you tell when you need to take one?
My view is you pre-measure see what number you require to avoid terrain then roll 2d6 if the number is good then no test, but if the number is too low forcing you to go through terrain to get into B2B then you roll another dice for the test, since with the original roll you would have to have gone through terrain to get into B2B triggering the extra thrid dice.

Grey elder wrote:

don_mondo wrote:1. You cannot avoid terrain if it would cause you to lose potential Base to Base contact with enemy models.

If a full distance charge will get your model into btb with his model in terrain, you have to roll. Same as it was in 5th and IIRC in 4th.

What happens in this situation where the charge range depending on the would influence ones requirrement to have to or not have to enter terrain to assualt?
Because as you see the potential to not have to enter terrain is there so can the bluee marines charge the marines on the far right moving like a Knight in chess which would mean that they nobody would have to enter terrain.

Do people understand where I coming from with this, in this situation the player does not have to enter terrain or move through it to gett all models into B2B contact with the enemy meaning that he would not have to test ofr Difficult terrain.

Sure, I understand. In your picture, you probably would not have to make a roll (depends on actual distance). Just slant the blue models to the bottom right and the others to the bottom left. Criss Cross. BUT!! let's say that those two lines are 11.5 inches apart. Slanting won't work as they cannot reach an enemy model moving on the diagonal. But by moving straight ahead to the opposite model they can reach btb with a 12" charge. Therefore, a test would be necessary. Do you understand where I am coming from and why I said that if a FULL DISTANCE charge will put you into btb, then a test is necessary. really, it's not that difficult, especially now taht we can measure everything before deciding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey elder wrote:Ok so it sounds like avoiding terrain is ok aslong as it does not interfere with the amount of models in B2B in the end.
Secondly for judging when to take a Difficult terrain test, how to you tell when you need to take one?
My view is you pre-measure see what number you require to avoid terrain then roll 2d6 if the number is good then no test, but if the number is too low forcing you to go through terrain to get into B2B then you roll another dice for the test, since with the original roll you would have to have gone through terrain to get into B2B triggering the extra thrid dice.

Nope, once you roll you have tested and are stuck with it. If you don't need to test (ie do not need to enter or go through terrain), don't roll.

So my question to you Don Mondo is (see my picture) I don't have to take a Difficult terrain test, If I use the full 12 Inches to determine my charge range, but lets say I roll a total of 6 inches which forces me to go through terrain do I then roll another dice, another wholle charge range?
Because in the scenario I provided I don't have to go through difficult terrain provided I role more than a 9 total, so when do I test when I physically have to move thorugh terrain seems plausible with the way the rules are set up.
(sorry your last statement cunfuses me a bit this is for clarification as to your meaning)

You're not allowed to "try" to avoid the terrain. If moving your models into B2B by the shortest distance requires you to move over Terrain you HAVE to take the test. If you roll well enough on the roll that it doesn't actually force you to move over the Terrain, then you don't have to go through the Terrain.

Note that this means your Initiative will NOT be reduced to "1" because the rule specifies that your Init is reduced by MOVING through the terrain, not by taking the difficult terrain TEST.

I see what you're getting at now. Gonna have to think on that (and check my rulebook whenI get home from work).

If you have a model that can make base contact after moving 12 inches or less in a straight line towards the enemy models, you go through terrain.

IIRC it only mentions strightline with the intial charge model I,E the closest one, the other models in the charge move must just attempt to get into B2B or failing that within 2 inches of a friendly model in B2B.
It doesn't mention a straight line correct?

There is no requirement for models beyond the first to move in a straight line or in the shortest distance possible. This rule is even more of a mess than it was last edition, because now you don't know whether or not you're going to be forced to move through terrain until after a random roll.

That is correct, shortest route is only for the initial model. as per P.21

Grey elder wrote:IIRC it only mentions strightline with the intial charge model I,E the closest one, the other models in the charge move must just attempt to get into B2B or failing that within 2 inches of a friendly model in B2B.
It doesn't mention a straight line correct?

That's correct. However, if a certain model COULD get into B2B contact in 6" by moving through terrain, but COULD get into B2B by moving AROUND Terrain in 8", you cannot "Try" to roll an 8 for your charge range and avoid the terrain. The rules essentially FORCE you to roll a difficult terrain test in order to make it.

Now, if after rolling the difficult terrain test, you DO roll that 8, then you do not actually HAVE to move through the terrain. This means your Initiative isn't reduced to 1, and you don't have to take any Dangerous Terrain tests (if applicable).

Murrdox wrote:

Grey elder wrote:IIRC it only mentions strightline with the intial charge model I,E the closest one, the other models in the charge move must just attempt to get into B2B or failing that within 2 inches of a friendly model in B2B.
It doesn't mention a straight line correct?

That's correct. However, if a certain model COULD get into B2B contact in 6" by moving through terrain, but COULD get into B2B by moving AROUND Terrain in 8", you cannot "Try" to roll an 8 for your charge range and avoid the terrain. The rules essentially FORCE you to roll a difficult terrain test in order to make it.

Now, if after rolling the difficult terrain test, you DO roll that 8, then you do not actually HAVE to move through the terrain. This means your Initiative isn't reduced to 1, and you don't have to take any Dangerous Terrain tests (if applicable).

so youre saying that in the scenario presented in the picture they have to roll for difficult terrain?

That's the way I read it. If one of your models COULD get in B2B by moving through Difficult Terrain, you have to roll for it no matter what because you always have to try and get into B2B as much as possible. If you could get a model into B2B by rolling a "6" and going through terrain, you have to try and do it, even if by getting a "7" means you don't have to go through the terrain.

However, once you actually ROLL for the Difficult Terrain, if you are still able to move into B2B as much as possible without actually moving through the Terrain, you don't have to do it.

We ran into this situation in the very first game of 6th edition that I played. I had some Stormboyz who were assaulting a Dreadnaught, whose back was up against area terrain. My Boyz were about 5 inches away. I rolled my Charge distance, which was about 8". This gave me enough movement that I had to put Boyz in B2B with the rear of the Dreadnaught, and this involved moving through Difficult Terrain (I wasn't using the Jump Packs in Assault).

So this gave us the realization that because some of my guys COULD have possibly done that before I assaulted, I would have needed to make the Difficult Terrain test before I rolled my charge distance.

The only way that you DON'T have to roll for Difficult Terrain is if there is a way for each and every model to get into B2B with an opponent model without going through terrain no matter how small a charge distance you would roll.

That does not make any sense Murrdox.

With your interpretation, if there is a unit at exactly 12 inches away, and a straight line will bring you into contact with an enemy model, and there is difficult terrain in the way, you have to roll no matter what.

Which is not what the rules say.

If you are 4 inches away from a model through terrain, but it would take 6 inches of movement to skirt the terrain and get into base, you roll 2D6, and if you get 6 or more, no difficult terrain test is needed, since you are not going through terrain, and you are still getting all of the models that would have been in base contact, into base contact.

DeathReaper wrote:That does not make any sense Murrdox.

With your interpretation, if there is a unit at exactly 12 inches away, and a straight line will bring you into contact with an enemy model, and there is difficult terrain in the way, you have to roll no matter what.

Which is not what the rules say.

If you are 4 inches away from a model through terrain, but it would take 6 inches of movement to skirt the terrain and get into base, you roll 2D6, and if you get 6 or more, no difficult terrain test is needed, since you are not going through terrain, and you are still getting all of the models that would have been in base contact, into base contact.

It's not an interpretation.

Look at the illustration on page 22 of the Rulebook. It shows you right there what is required. The Guardians in that illustration COULD just roll their 2D6 Charge roll and hope that they get high enough to engage the marines without going through terrain. But they can't. The rules say if there is a possibility that you must move through terrain in order to engage enemy models, then you HAVE to do it.

The good news is that you only go at Initiative 1 if you actually DO move through terrain. So if you roll high enough, you can still go around the terrain in question. The bad news is that your charge range likely isn't going to be as high.

You essentially need to work out where all your models will go in the assault to end up in B2B with as many models as possible, and you have to assume they'd have 12" to do it in. If any of those paths for any models cross Difficult Terrain, you need to roll it. Even if you have ONE model that could get into B2B with another model by rolling a perfect 12, that means you have to roll a difficult terrain test.

I don't like it, it's hard to figure out your optimal assault move with all your models without actually moving any of them, especially with say a large unit of clustered Stormboyz as I ran into.

This is my take

-declare your charge and determine if your furthest model is 12" away by skirting if so roll 2D6 but the result has to be done in the manner you were attempting your charge so if ypou needed 12 and got 6 and those guys at the back cant fight then thats your penalty

- i would never let my opponent roll the third dice after the two were there already either roll 3 or roll 2 and be stuck with it

in other words if 12" gets you in base to base but 7" through terrain and you roll an 8 for your charge i would not let you then charge 8 through terrain youd have to skirt as thats the charge you declared


just an fyi trhis is my opinion nor am i claiming i am right

i come down on the fence of RAI which isnt the ruleset in that you should have to roll if you may go through


ps where does it say if there is a possibility then you have to roll (explicitly not interpreted or intended)

Murrdox, It is only a possibility if they do not roll enough distance to get around the terrain.

"If, when charging, one or more rnodels have to move through difficult terrain, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test" P.22

Note they say IF models have to move through difficult terrain.

This is not something we always know before we roll the dice.

tristan.t.w.good@gmail.com wrote:- i would never let my opponent roll the third dice after the two were there already either roll 3 or roll 2 and be stuck with it

Sometimes they will be forced to.

I think this issue is a lot more simple than people are making it out to be. Let's clarify the question we are asking first.

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test."

The emphasis here is whether or not the model "has to move through difficult terrain." What determines whether they have to or not?

1) Some claim you roll the 2D6 first, and if you roll well enough to be able to go around difficult terrain, then clearly you don't take the difficult terrain penalty.

BUT

2) others claim that you do NOT roll the 2D6 first. Instead, you must simply take the shortest route possible, even if it means going through difficult terrain.

Just because you are drawing a straight line from your closest assaulting model to the closest assaultee, does not necessarily mean you will be taking that exact route. In fact, it is entirely possible that you could be only 6" away, end up rolling 3 6's giving you a 12" charge, and using up those 12 inches to move around the difficult terrain.

YOU ARE CONFUSING ME WITH ALL THIS REDUNDANT RAMBLE. WHAT'S THE ISSUE IN SHORT?

Again, we have to make sure everyone is asking the correct question, here. We also need to make sure everyone is understanding every single rule and assaulting step in it's whole. Let's try to simplify this even more.

Step one of the assault (ignoring overwatch, btw.) Declare who you are assaulting with, and whom you are assaulting. Figure out which of your models is the "closest" model to the enemy unit.

Now, here is where the rules get specific. They say that you MUST draw the SHORTEST LINE POSSIBLE to the enemy unit, EVEN IF IT GOES THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN.
**It is important to note here that you do not have to actually take this route when the time comes. But we are not at that point just yet.

Step two should be simple then. Look at your line, and see if it goes through difficult terrain. If it does, then guess what? Your charge will be 3D6, taking the lowest of the two dice. If not, you're golden. Roll 2D6 for the charge.

Step three, move the models however many inches you rolled. IF you went through difficult terrain, then your initiative is 1. If you managed to get all those models around the difficult terrain, battle proceeds as normal.
**Remember, not every model needs to be in B2B contact. Just the first one you moved, which is the closest one to the enemy (from step 1.) The enemy has a chance to pile in, and every model within 2" of each B2B contact model will be considered in combat.



Questions/comments?

aidethepally wrote:
Step one of the assault (ignoring overwatch, btw.) Declare who you are assaulting with, and whom you are assaulting. Figure out which of your models is the "closest" model to the enemy unit.

Now, here is where the rules get specific. They say that you MUST draw the SHORTEST LINE POSSIBLE to the enemy unit, EVEN IF IT GOES THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN.
**It is important to note here that you do not have to actually take this route when the time comes. But we are not at that point just yet.

Step two should be simple then. Look at your line, and see if it goes through difficult terrain. If it does, then guess what? Your charge will be 3D6, taking the lowest of the two dice. If not, you're golden. Roll 2D6 for the charge.

Step three, move the models however many inches you rolled. IF you went through difficult terrain, then your initiative is 1. If you managed to get all those models around the difficult terrain, battle proceeds as normal.
**Remember, not every model needs to be in B2B contact. Just the first one you moved, which is the closest one to the enemy (from step 1.) The enemy has a chance to pile in, and every model within 2" of each B2B contact model will be considered in combat.

Questions/comments?

Sorry, Aidethepally, but that's wrong. First, by your steps, you'd only need to make a difficult terrain test if the first model moved had to go through terrain. The rules clearly say "if one or more models have to move through Difficult Terrain, the unit must take a Difficult Terrain Test." Also your step 3 is wrong. On page 21, it outlines that you must move your models to get as many of your models into B2B as possible. Yes, not every model needs to get into B2B, but each model has to attempt to.

DeathReaper - I agree with you that it isn't something we always know before we roll the dice. The Difficult Terrain test is the SAME THING as the Charge roll. You can't attempt the Charge roll to go around Difficult Terrain, and then somehow make a Difficult Terrain test after-the-fact. That's not what the rules tell you to do.

Explain to me how you would resolve the example on Page 22 without taking a Difficult Terrain test. It's pretty clearly laid out there, and it's almost the exact same example that Grey Elder posted.

In that example, you have 5 models vs. 5 models. Each model NEEDS to attempt to get into B2B with one of the enemy models per the rules on Page 21. That means that two of the models will need to move across Difficult Terrain in order to get to the models they need to get into B2B with. Because of that, the unit needs to test for Difficult Terrain. They don't have the option of NOT trying to get into B2B with those models, and since the Difficult Terrain test is the same as the Charge Roll, that's what they do.

I agree, I think the rule could be better-written to not require guess-work on the part of the player.

You resolve it as normal.

Roll 2D6, if that is not enough to get around the terrain then either Roll 3D6, or just roll 1 more D6 and take the highest away and you have your charge range.

In your 5 models situation part of it is correct. Each model needs to attempt to get into Base Contact. However they only need to move across Difficult Terrain in order to get to the models they need to get into B2B with, IF they have the distance to do so.

How do we know how far they can charge if we do not roll the 2d6?

If the closest model is 4 inches away, and the two models that have difficult terrain in front of them are 8 inches away, then if you do not roll an 8 or higher, they do not reach models and are not forced through the terrain, but if you do roll an 8 or higher, then you are forced through DT and must roll 3D6 instead. It is something you just do not know until the dice are cast.

DeathReaper wrote:

Roll 2D6, if that is not enough to get around the terrain then either Roll 3D6, or just roll 1 more D6 and take the highest away and you have your charge range.

And I totally agree with you that might be a better way of handling it. But that's not how the example text tells you to handle it. Where in the rules does it tell you to handle it that way?

If you read the text in the example on Page 22 of the BRB, it says "The whole unit counts as charging through difficult terrain. They must roll 3D6, discarding the highest, when determining their charge range"

The example doesn't say that the "Guardians rolled 2D6 to determine their charge range, and got a "6" total, which means he had to go through difficult terrain, so now the Guardians roll a third die as a difficult terrain test."

The example goes against what the rules say.

The rules tell us that if any models will move through DT you need to test on 3D6, but we do not always know if models will need to move through DT before we take the test.

See the issue?

So the best way to do it, since there is no real way to handle it in the rules, is to roll 2D6, figure out distance, and then assess if any models will need to move through DT, and if so add 1D6 to the roll as normal for DT.

DeathReaper wrote:The example goes against what the rules say.

The rules tell us that if any models will move through DT you need to test on 3D6, but we do not always know if models will need to move through DT before we take the test.

See the issue?

So the best way to do it, since there is no real way to handle it in the rules, is to roll 2D6, figure out distance, and then assess if any models will need to move through DT, and if so add 1D6 to the roll as normal for DT.

I agree that's a handy work around, but it's also not what the rules really say to do.