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Right, the rules tell us to do something that we can not do. They require that which is Impossible.

No, they require you to work out if a 12" move would require you to move through terrain. If so you roll terrain.

Same as 5th

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they require you to work out if a 12" move would require you to move through terrain. If so you roll terrain.

Same as 5th

What happens when a 12" move would not require a move through terrain, but you roll 8" (or some other roll) and it *does* require you to go through terrain?

Then a move between 2 - 12' would require you to go through terrain, so you roll the terrain test.

willydstyle wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they require you to work out if a 12" move would require you to move through terrain. If so you roll terrain.

Same as 5th

What happens when a 12" move would not require a move through terrain, but you roll 8" (or some other roll) and it *does* require you to go through terrain?

Nos is mostly right, but it's not a just a 12" move. You have to figure out if ANY move of any distance would require you to move through Difficult Terrain. If it does, you roll for Difficult Terrain.

Some examples may have it such that if you roll LOW you won't make it far enough to get into Terrain. Some other examples might be such that if you roll HIGH you'll be able to move around Terrain instead of through it. In both cases though, if the possibility exists, you need to roll Difficult Terrain.

EDIT got Ninja'd by Nos' last post

Murrdox wrote:Nos is mostly right, but it's not a just a 12" move. You have to figure out if ANY move of any distance would require you to move through Difficult Terrain. If it does, you roll for Difficult Terrain.

I do not see that in the rules.

Page please.

It is the only way to comply with the rule. Same as in 5th you have to work out ahead of time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is the only way to comply with the rule. Same as in 5th you have to work out ahead of time.

in 5th you knew if someone was going to have to move through terrain, because all charges were the same distance.

In 6th this is information we do not know until the charge distance is determined. It's a catch 22

I think I may see a big blunder in how people are doing this. Please feel free to (nicely) correct me if I'm wrong.

It looks like people are assuming that you perform a single dice roll. Either your 2d6 charge range, or a 3d6 (take the lowest 2) difficult terrain test if any move of 2-12" would put you through difficult terrain.

That's not what it's saying to do. You roll your 2d6 charge range and if that value would puts you through difficult terrain, THEN you roll 3d6 (take the 2 lowest) and that is your actual charge distance.

The part where it tells you to roll 3d6 (and take the lowest) instead of 2d6 is refering to the normal difficult terrain test rather than the charge range roll.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is the only way to comply with the rule. Same as in 5th you have to work out ahead of time.

in 5th you knew if someone was going to have to move through terrain, because all charges were the same distance.

In 6th this is information we do not know until the charge distance is determined. It's a catch 22

No, it isnt. You know if you WOULD have to go through terrain as you know all the distances involved.

Ok, I'm gonna throw my two cents in here.
I agree with nos.
This is how things should go down:
declare charge
resolve overwatch (this can screw up your plan)
Check to see if any charge range, even minimal, has the posibility of bringing you through terrain.
then roll for charge range depending on if in terrain or not.
If you get lucky with a difficult terrain roll and roll high and can avoid terrain, oh well. you still are limited by that roll.
If you had to roll for terrain, then you will also suffer the Initiative reduction, even if your roll was high enough to avoid the terrain.

So in your scenario, you would have to roll for terrain because the two blue marines (in order to make a minimal distance charge to B2B) will have to go over terrain.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:Ok, I'm gonna throw my two cents in here.
I agree with nos.
This is how things should go down:
declare charge
resolve overwatch (this can screw up your plan)
Check to see if any charge range, even minimal, has the posibility of bringing you through terrain.
then roll for charge range depending on if in terrain or not.
If you get lucky with a difficult terrain roll and roll high and can avoid terrain, oh well. you still are limited by that roll.
If you had to roll for terrain, then you will also suffer the Initiative reduction, even if your roll was high enough to avoid the terrain.

So in your scenario, you would have to roll for terrain because the two blue marines (in order to make a minimal distance charge to B2B) will have to go over terrain.

So why are you making a single roll?

Maelstrom808 wrote:I think I may see a big blunder in how people are doing this. Please feel free to (nicely) correct me if I'm wrong.

It looks like people are assuming that you perform a single dice roll. Either your 2d6 charge range, or a 3d6 (take the lowest 2) difficult terrain test if any move of 2-12" would put you through difficult terrain.

That's not what it's saying to do. You roll your 2d6 charge range and if that value would puts you through difficult terrain, THEN you roll 3d6 (take the 2 lowest) and that is your actual charge distance.

The part where it tells you to roll 3d6 (and take the lowest) instead of 2d6 is refering to the normal difficult terrain test rather than the charge range roll.

Sorry, but I don't think letting a bad outcome on a 2d6 (which means you won't be able to run around terrain) should let you get another roll, even if it is a reduced roll (3d6 take the lowest).
Check if terrain will be in the way based off of what minimal distance is needed. So straight line for everyone, closest to closest; does it cross terrain?

Moronic Nonsense wrote:If you had to roll for terrain, then you will also suffer the Initiative reduction, even if your roll was high enough to avoid the terrain.

Not true. In 6th you only suffer the reduction if you move through terrain - rolling a difficult terrain test has nothing to do with it.

I think it would be, if you have to roll for moving through terrain, then you suffer as if you are moving through terrian.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:I think it would be, if you have to roll for moving through terrain, then you suffer as if you are moving through terrian.

You can think that all you want.

Did you move a model through terrain?

Moronic Nonsense wrote:I think it would be, if you have to roll for moving through terrain, then you suffer as if you are moving through terrian.

Except it isnt. The rule is back to 4th ed - if you actually MOVE through cover then your I is dropped.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:I think it would be, if you have to roll for moving through terrain, then you suffer as if you are moving through terrian.

No, that's one of the important distinctions in the new rules. Merely taking a Difficult Terrain Test does not affect your Initiative in close combat anymore. It only does so if you actually move through terrain.

EDIT - DAAAMN Ninja'd by Nos twice in a row!!

Ok, I might be wrong about the reduction of I if you roll for terrain but manage to avoid cover. I'm going to check my rulebook later when I get home.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:I think I may see a big blunder in how people are doing this. Please feel free to (nicely) correct me if I'm wrong.

It looks like people are assuming that you perform a single dice roll. Either your 2d6 charge range, or a 3d6 (take the lowest 2) difficult terrain test if any move of 2-12" would put you through difficult terrain.

That's not what it's saying to do. You roll your 2d6 charge range and if that value would puts you through difficult terrain, THEN you roll 3d6 (take the 2 lowest) and that is your actual charge distance.

The part where it tells you to roll 3d6 (and take the lowest) instead of 2d6 is refering to the normal difficult terrain test rather than the charge range roll.

Sorry, but I don't think letting a bad outcome on a 2d6 (which means you won't be able to run around terrain) should let you get another roll, even if it is a reduced roll (3d6 take the lowest).
Check if terrain will be in the way based off of what minimal distance is needed. So straight line for everyone, closest to closest; does it cross terrain?

I disagree. The rules tell you to roll for charge range. Nothing says you roll for difficult terrain instead of charge range. It says if you would have to move through difficult terrain, you roll a difficult terrain test and that is your charge range, but you still roll both sets of dice. If it ends up higher than your initial roll, you still cannot avoid terrain as you are told you may, so you must move through it and are reduced to initiative 1.

1) Declare Charge
2) Resolve Overwatch
3) Roll Charge Range
3a) If this distance would put one of your models in difficult terrain, roll a difficult terrain test. This is your charge range. If this distance moves you through difficult terrrain, the unit's attacks are resolve at initiative 1.
4) Charge Move

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is the only way to comply with the rule. Same as in 5th you have to work out ahead of time.

in 5th you knew if someone was going to have to move through terrain, because all charges were the same distance.

In 6th this is information we do not know until the charge distance is determined. It's a catch 22

No, it isnt. You know if you WOULD have to go through terrain as you know all the distances involved.

The rule says this:
"If, when charging, one or more rnodels have to rnove through difficult terrain" P.22
How do we know if they have to?

Take this Scenario: The closest model is one inch away.
there is a model 2 inches away in the same unit, but across a wall on a straight move, but a 5 inch move will get that model around the wall, and not affected by Difficult terrain.

How do you know what the charge range is for that unit? We know it is going to be at least 2 inches, but it may not be 5 or more.

Maelstrom808 wrote:
3) Roll Charge Range
3a) If this distance would put one of your models in difficult terrain, roll a difficult terrain test. This is your charge range. If this distance moves you through difficult terrrain, the unit's attacks are resolve at initiative 1.

I disagree with only this part. This effectively gives the attacker a reroll on his charge distance, albeit at a reduced speed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
example of how this could be taken advantage of (with luck)
first roll (trying to go around terrain needs say 5 in.)
rolls bad and gets only 4.
ok, so now we have to go through terrain, so roll terrain (3d6 ignore highest) results: 2,4,6 so charge range is now 6!
that is why I dont think you can roll a terrain charge range, upon failing roll a regular charge range. (edited last line, accidentally wrote terrain charge range and regular charge range backwards, sorry)

Moronic Nonsense wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:
3) Roll Charge Range
3a) If this distance would put one of your models in difficult terrain, roll a difficult terrain test. This is your charge range. If this distance moves you through difficult terrrain, the unit's attacks are resolve at initiative 1.

I disagree with only this part. This effectively gives the attacker a reroll on his charge distance, albeit at a reduced speed.

Regardless, that's what the rules say to do. Almost any way it works out, it's going to be a worse result for the unit charging. Either you end up taking an initiative hit, or you fail to get as many of your guys into the fight as you'd like.

example of how this could be taken advantage of (with luck)
first roll (trying to go around terrain needs say 5 in.)
rolls bad and gets only 4.
ok, so now we have to go through terrain, so roll terrain (3d6 ignore highest) results: 2,4,6 so charge range is now 6!
that is why I dont think you can roll a regular charge range, upon failing roll a terrain charge range.

Except you may not avoid terrain, and so you take the initiative hit.

Murrdox and Nos have this one.

At first I didn't realize it worked that way either. But, for reasons they have clearly outlined, it is the only way to follow the rules as written.

You guys are missing some key points that add it all together.

Page 21 - Moving charging models
Charging units must attempt to engage as many opposing models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible - NO HOLDING BACK OR TRYING TO AVOID TERRAIN! This is pretty obvious, even if you roll high enough to make it around the terrain YOUR MODELS GO THREW IT. there is nowhere in the no trying to avoid terrain that says "unless you roll high enough"

Page 21 - Second bullet point under move initial charger
If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach THAT IS NOT ALREADY IN BASE CONTACT WITH ANOTHER CHARGING MODEL
This applies to OP scenario. your blue marines will go after the 2 guys on the far left because your red marines already be b2b with the 3 in front of them. even if you rolled a 12 and could pull the 2 blue guys to the far right 2 into b2b and somehow avoid terrain... ohh wait it says flat out NO HOLDING BACK OR TRYING TO AVOID TERRAIN.

Page 22 -Charging thew difficult terrain
if when charging one or more models have to go threw difficult terrain (NO TRYING TO AVOID TERRAIN!!!!!!!!I DON'T CARE IF YOU ROLL HIGH ENOUGH) the UNIT must make a difficult terrain test. however to represent the uneven pace of a charge, the unit rolls 3D6 RATHER than 2D6 and uses the two lowest.

SO

Look at your unit. If the shortest possible successful charge distance at all would cause ANY of your models to go threw terrain then you roll 3D6 and take the 2 lowest. You DO NOT roll 2d6 first and see if you can avoid the terrain because YOU CANT AVOID TERRAIN. now after you have your result then you move models. if you try and skirt terrain with a high roll you are deliberately breaking the NO HOLDING BACK OR TRYING TO AVOID TERRAIN rule.

also

if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move (again NO AVOIDING TERRAIN) all of the unit's models must attack at I1

keltikhoa wrote:if when charging one or more models have to go threw difficult terrain the UNIT must make a difficult terrain test. however to represent the uneven pace of a charge, the unit rolls 3D6 RATHER than 2D6 and uses the two lowest.

Rather than the 2d6 of the normal DT test, yes. Not the 2d6 of the charge roll. You still have to roll that to determine if your unit would be in difficult terrain in the first place.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

keltikhoa wrote:if when charging one or more models have to go threw difficult terrain the UNIT must make a difficult terrain test. however to represent the uneven pace of a charge, the unit rolls 3D6 RATHER than 2D6 and uses the two lowest.

Rather than the 2d6 of the normal DT test, yes. Not the 2d6 of the charge roll. You still have to roll that to determine if your unit would be in difficult terrain in the first place.

sorry to be rude but
ok, to repeat what Nos, keltikkhoa, dracos, murrdox, and myself have said:

A regular charge range on 2d6 is 2-12" if any of those values will force your guy to go through terrain, you have to take a difficult terrain.
In this case a minimal distance to assault will always be a straight line to the closest enemy. If any of these lines cross terrain, darnit.

You do not roll regular charge range, check to see if it is range to get to combat (and avoid terrain), and then take a difficult terrain roll of 3d6.

Please cite where you are directed to not roll the charge range. It does not tell you at any point that you may not roll the charge range.

In addition:

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test."

It says if the models "have" to move through difficult terrain, not if they "might" or "if it's possible". The only way to know this for sure, is to roll the charge distance. If that move would take them through terrain, then they have to take the test.

EDIT: And don't worry about the rude thing. It's frustrating when you see things differently than someone else and they aren't coming over to your side of things.

The rules seldom ever tell you what you may not do. That is a very poor argument.

The rules tell you what you may do. Then you take actions based on what you may do, being careful not to break any of those rules.

The only way to play this without doing somethign wrong is to make your 3d6 charge range check if any value of your normal charge range check would force you to move through DT.

Dracos wrote:The rules seldom ever tell you what you may not do. That is a very poor argument.

The rules tell you what you may do. Then you take actions based on what you may do, being careful not to break any of those rules.

The only way to play this without doing somethign wrong is to make your 3d6 charge range check if any value of your normal charge range check would force you to move through DT.

The rules tell you to roll charge roll

The rules tell you to roll difficult terrain tests if the unit has to move through difficult terrain.

The rules do not tell you not to roll the charge roll. Until they do, you still roll the charge roll.

"Something wrong" is a very vague term. I'd like to see an example of something that would fall under that description using the method I described, so I can get an idea of what you mean by it.