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So here it is, I play multiple armies but one of my favorite armies is my Tyranid army but unfortunately they seem to need some help rules wise(something alot of people have already been saying) and was wondering what all of you on dakka thought the Tyranids needed. I honestly believe that they need more bigger badder monstrouse creatures they are supposed to be these ridicules monstrous aliens but they just seem to be lacking in my opinion. Also I really believe the Tyranid Warrior should have a higher toughness, 4 just doesn't seem to cut it. That is what I believe they need lets see what everyone comes up with.

all they really need is an inv save and thats about it :/ maybe a few 2+ saves in there too

A codex that works?

Cruddace put through a chipper shredder? Just kidding... sort of...

I am not sure of an elegant way to fix the current codex. Maybe 5+ invul on synapse creatures? Seems a bit of a ham fisted way to go about it though. I think what they could really use is a reduction in cost for a lot of things in the codex. If you look at the pricing structure of the MCs and some of the ICs like the parasite it is just insane what they cost really. The cost of a tooled up Tyrant with needed guard is pretty brutal also. I wont even talk about old one eye. I think they really just need a new codex. I think GW is just chalking up the 5th edition nid codex to "Ooops our bad" even though they will not admit it. I think we are going to have to wait 3 years for the nids to get a new codex before they are truly fixed.

TBH, on paper, they aren't too bad. MCs everywhere and Psykers galore. They can get troops, that for 10bpts less than a SM Captain, have equal wounds per model, and equally Str+Toughness. All of their HQs are fearless and they can make most of their army fearless. All of their HQs as well as many of their units can give decent psychic defense

Their cheapest HQ is cheaper than a Captain and has equal WS, BS, Ws, Int, Ld and save. But as standard can reroll 1s to hit in combat, has more attacks and higher str and toughness. He is also fearless,

Their main HQ, the Tyrant, has higher WS that dedicated duelists like Abaddon, Draigo, Lucius, Skulltaker, and is only equalled by a few and surpassed by a couple of models. It can also be a FMC, or take a 2+ save. They can have an HQ that can spawn Troops and can possibly be a troop itself. They have a


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a possibility of getting the creature with the second highest str in the game and deepstrike it in inside another MC, ir make a unit of up to 3. They have units which have the most wounds in the game, and can deep strike onto other units to kill them and not you. They have deadly AT in the form of Zoanthropes (penetrate everything on 3+ and +2 to damage!). The Swarmlord can destroy anything in combat, and Deathleaper is.now awesome. It can reduce the Ld of any character on the board, has +3 to its cover save( 4+ in the open), models move slower through terrain near it, it can appear anywhere, flash back into reserve, has 2 Str 6 rending shots that rend on 5+, WS 9 and Str 6, 5+ rending, rerollong 1s to hit, extremely high Int and Hit&Run, has fleet.

Most of their arm is pretty tough. You could have all warriors, who have 3 wounds each and marine toughness, followed by T6 Hive Guard, all the good HS and HQ options are T5 or 6.






How are.nids so bad with all that going for them?

I like the idea of lowering some of the costs and a 5 plus invulnerable save for creatures in synapse seems cool.

To deadshot, you bring up some good points on paper Tyranids don't seem too bad but the inclusion of random charges and th overwatch getting shot out of charge range really hurt. I also don't believe running the warriors as a unit isn't workable due to the price you pay per warrior and the get toasted by pretty much all heavy weapons and la ck of transports(I know we have the tyranid drop pod but no model and even then get shot because no assaulting out of it) and invuln saves they die to quick.

Basicaly, more guns, the old fexes, a rules exception to assaulting from reserve/pods (every other dex gets exceptions to something anyway), cheaper units and an actuall invuln or two. I missing anything?

Nids do look good on paper in a lot of ways but they have their draw backs. The Prime is cheap and a great IC but he cannot pod with warriors. He can join join a Tyrant and guard for some fun or even fexs to give them some more bite in CC with troops but he has no easy way to get around the board.

The Tyrant and Swarmlords are brutes but man do they pay for it. They also run into the same problem of getting around the board unless you slap wings on a Tyrant which takes an expensive HQ and really makes him expensive. It is still up in the air on how survivable they are with the grounding rules but the flyrants might be the way to go. Biomancy might help a bit here also but a lot more games are needed.

I love the Death Leaper but again he is not cheap for what you get and you have to be careful what battles you get him into. He is often good for making your opponent paranoid but is also vying for a pretty important slot for nids in elites. I wish he was able to attack out of DS like ygmarls.

The Tyranid codex was close to being good but with unit costs and a lot of the rules like the trygon hole they just seemed to miss the boat. In my opinion it appears to have been a rushed affair. It seems like if they had just taken another 6 months or something on it. Either way they will always be my first 40k love and I will keep playing them.

Their ranged anti armor got a bit of a hit with 6th when rolling on the damage chart. Warriors are still missile bait waiting to happen. All of their MCs are still an arm and a leg to put on the table.

The extra force org at 2k REALLY has helped alleviate the elites slot crowding allowing nid players to field what they want rather than just what they need.

I say right now, they need their psychic powers tweaked and their points costs dropped to be balanced. For internal balance their needs to be more protection on certain units like warriors to keep them in the game.

The lack of assault grenades or their equivalent is also really annoying. Genestealers, hormagaunts, Tyrants, deathleapers, almost everything you want to get into CC doesn't come with assault grenades. So to be really effective they have to catch an opponent in the open which is difficult since you can't assault out of outflank, the turn you infiltrate, or out of spore pods.

FMC's are nice but not as good as a flyer. The grounding test is a huge drawback. For every unit that hits my FMC I have to take a grounding test even if it doesn't suffer a wound.

Tyranids also don't have a lot of low AP weapons or weapons with long range. The revered hive guard is only a 24 inch range.

I also agree that the lack of invuls is rough. A Tyranid Prime is cheaper than a SM Captain but at least a Captain comes with a 4++.

Almost forgot to mention our BS0 Broodlord :(

With all that said, I still like playing my nids and I will continue to play them until I get good enough with them to make them work.

Personaly, 'nids are the new "hard mode" for 40k. Like SOB or daemonhunters. And like those 2 codexs, in 3-4 years could go either way. youl stagnate, or become the new "OMG OP SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO BE PLAYED" like the GK became

doc1234 wrote:Personaly, 'nids are the new "hard mode" for 40k. Like SOB or daemonhunters. And like those 2 codexs, in 3-4 years could go either way. youl stagnate, or become the new "OMG OP SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO BE PLAYED" like the GK became

Hmm, that's an interesting point. It is still pretty early in 6th edition for the top tier builds to appear. I'm sure things are going to go back and forth while people a lot smarter and better at this game than I am figure out what is the best.

I would really like to see a new codex that gives nids more anti-flyer options and fix some of our problems, but I know that is a selfish stance since their are older codexes that need updating too. I wish GW would put out new codexes more than once every leap year or at least do more minor updates to attempt to balance things but that discussion is for a different thread.

The 3 main issues for me are:

The lack of invulnerable saves available to HQs
The lack of assault grenades, especially for an army that's meant to be feared in assault
The lack of access to Skyfire - GW even felt the need to make universally available fortifications with Skyfire worse for them

These 3 things are what primarily hurt Tyranids.

That said, a better written codex would be nice too.

-Loki- wrote:The 3 main issues for me are:

The lack of invulnerable saves available to HQs
The lack of assault grenades, especially for an army that's meant to be feared in assault
The lack of access to Skyfire - GW even felt the need to make universally available fortifications with Skyfire worse for them

These 3 things are what primarily hurt Tyranids.

That said, a better written codex would be nice too.

Completely agree but with just one more thing added: Cheaper MCs. Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Tyrannofex and especially Carnifex are too overpriced for what they bring to the table. The Tervigon is the only Nid MC worth his points IMO.

Edit: My previous post was unconstructive I realized after cooling off. my apologies.

Cheaper mid-size guys, better venom cannons, more and more practical options on small guys (like flesh hooks and a useable strangleweb gun).

I really wish they'd get rid of the -1 on the damage table for venom cannons. Especially now that you can only destroy a vehicle on a 6 without ap 1 or 2. It's a relic from 3rd and 4th editions where there weren't many vehicles and the damage chart was more forgiving, and Tyranids were meant to eat vehicles in assault. In 5th edition it was clear it was an unneeded rule.

Now? The damage table makes it literally impossible for a venom cannon to destroy a vehicle even on a lucky hit. Basically, the new table does that rule itself. It's time for that rule to go.

I believe that adrenal glands should be changed to grenades. Hormagants should be beasts. Rupture cannon should be AP 3. Other then that, I am happy with the dex. I have watched and played several games now with nids and I think they do rather well, that is if the dice gods aren't pissed. Use of area buildings, trees and the like to help shield them, ehh not bad for me.

Maybe the question isn't what the Tyranids need, but rather what they deserve.

Eternal warrior on some of the big beasties would be nice too... before my trygon get's instakilled by one lucky GK halberd.

Oh and changing the grounding rule for MFC to only work on hits that can actually wound the model would be nice

Let's see...

Abilities

Change Hive Commander to let you reassign reserve rolls between units and/or choose to fail successful rolls. This opens up use of Trygon tunnels and Lictor reserve / DS bonuses and stops Hive Commander stacking uselessly with other reserve abilities

Replace Indescribable Horror upgrade with something more useful. Perhaps a 'Spirit Stones' equivalent that makes HT's mastery level 2.

Swarmlord should have EW as standard, and maybe have the ability to grant it to another unit like it can with PE.

Give Hive Guard a purchasable upgrade for Skyfire. It fits their fluff nicely.

Replace Regeneration with It Will Not Die.

Allow units with Adrenal Glands to assault from Outflank/Deepstrike

Units

Hive Tyrants should be slightly cheaper (-10pts) or have 5 wounds.

Tyranid Warriors should be either T5 W2, have EW, or a 3+ save as standard. As it stands they cost as much as Terminators without any survivability.

All MC's should be at least WS4 / Init 2. There's no excuse for WS3/I1 on 200pt+ units.

All MC's should be able to purchase the Armoured Shell upgrade.

Treat Pyrovores and Venomthropes as 'Wolf Guard' style IC's that can be attached to broods. Pyrovores should be T5 W3 too.

Carnifex needs either a ~30pt cost reduction, or buffs to justify the price. Making it T8 would be nice to see and give it a role over other MC's. Free Bio-Plasma would also be cool.

Give the Harpy a bonus to Vector Strikes (extra strength against flyers/skimmers), giving it an anti-flyer niche.

Move Lictors/DeathLeaper to Fast Attack.

Ripper Swarms should not use up FOC slots, have Outflank, and be able to assault the turn they arrive.

Weapons

Venom Cannons should be AP3. Nids have precious little ranged anti-MEQ that doesn't involve melee or a bucket full of dice.

Make Barbed Stranglers / Stranglethorns slightly cheaper.

Make Fleshborer Hive twin-linked and/or S5

Rupture Cannon should be either AP2, twin-linked, or Assault 4 to compensate for the vehicle damage table changes.

Drop the cost of Crushing Claws to 15/20pts.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Maybe the question isn't what the Tyranids need, but rather what they deserve.

This too. Weren't they GWs best selling xeno line until Cruddace got his hands on them?

So over all it looks like the biggest things we need so far according to dakka is survivability whether by invuln or higher toughness values for units like warriors. Better ways to get in hand to hand, and a lowered cost of MC's.

Hey guys, just opened a thread in Proposed Rules to actually mark these changes down.

There is still a massive problem with multi-wound T4 models - one missile hit, 2+ to kill. That's about a quarter of the codex choices.

MCs are overcosted - see Necron spyders for what their points can buy. Also, look at a wraith vs parasite of mortrex and cry at the points differential.

Only one unit has a an invul save (zoanthropes and Doom = count Doom as super-zoey) and there is no ability for others to upgrade to get one.

Great idea thanks Deadshot.

What's wrong with Nids? Multiple T4 multi-wound models with no eternal warrior or invuln saves with disproportionate costs.

Highly overcosted units all over the place > Tyrants, Carnifex, Warriors, Shrikes, Lictors, Deathleaper (yeah he's better now but still too expensive), Tyrant Guard, Parasite, arguably Tyranofex (although 2+ did get better)

No assault grenades, who gives an s about I6 genestealers, smart opponents will never let them go at I6.

Not all of these items need to be rectified; make us survivable and the high cost and/or lack of assault grenades is justified; lower their cost and their fragility is justified, etc.

Frankly if they gave us EW back I'd be happy.

Wow some really great ideas here. I'd just add I think Nids should have more options to break the FoC and a more modular army due to our lack of allies.

We should be able to build a CC army, Flier or shooty army depending on which units we take.

Having most of our best units crammed into elites and no way to get extra elite slots really hurts the army.

xttz wrote:Let's see...

Abilities

Change Hive Commander to let you reassign reserve rolls between units and/or choose to fail successful rolls. This opens up use of Trygon tunnels and Lictor reserve / DS bonuses and stops Hive Commander stacking uselessly with other reserve abilities

Replace Indescribable Horror upgrade with something more useful. Perhaps a 'Spirit Stones' equivalent that makes HT's mastery level 2.

Swarmlord should have EW as standard, and maybe have the ability to grant it to another unit like it can with PE.

Give Hive Guard a purchasable upgrade for Skyfire. It fits their fluff nicely.

Replace Regeneration with It Will Not Die.

Allow units with Adrenal Glands to assault from Outflank/Deepstrike

Units

Hive Tyrants should be slightly cheaper (-10pts) or have 5 wounds.

Tyranid Warriors should be either T5 W2, have EW, or a 3+ save as standard. As it stands they cost as much as Terminators without any survivability.

All MC's should be at least WS4 / Init 2. There's no excuse for WS3/I1 on 200pt+ units.

All MC's should be able to purchase the Armoured Shell upgrade.

Treat Pyrovores and Venomthropes as 'Wolf Guard' style IC's that can be attached to broods. Pyrovores should be T5 W3 too.

Carnifex needs either a ~30pt cost reduction, or buffs to justify the price. Making it T8 would be nice to see and give it a role over other MC's. Free Bio-Plasma would also be cool.

Give the Harpy a bonus to Vector Strikes (extra strength against flyers/skimmers), giving it an anti-flyer niche.

Move Lictors/DeathLeaper to Fast Attack.

Ripper Swarms should not use up FOC slots, have Outflank, and be able to assault the turn they arrive.

Weapons

Venom Cannons should be AP3. Nids have precious little ranged anti-MEQ that doesn't involve melee or a bucket full of dice.

Make Barbed Stranglers / Stranglethorns slightly cheaper.

Make Fleshborer Hive twin-linked and/or S5

Rupture Cannon should be either AP2, twin-linked, or Assault 4 to compensate for the vehicle damage table changes.

Drop the cost of Crushing Claws to 15/20pts.

Basically everything said here. Especially the boost to toughness for the warrior sized creatures. Given the permanent boost bikes and marks now give, there is no more good reason for us not to have this.

Vepr wrote:Cruddace put through a chipper shredder? Just kidding... sort of...

God I hope so lol, if so it would make me love 6th ed even more.

What xttz said.

The main things for me are no invul on HQs, overcosted units and biomorphs (would love to see something other than TL devourers on a carnifex if it is seen at all or devourers on a hive tyrant); many T4 models need T5 (or eternal warrior in synapse); grenade equivalents for assault units (raveners, stealers, hormagaunts, trygons and maybe purchaseable for some other units); a few units/weapons with skyfire (I don't want hive guard to be the one that gets skyfire - it is already to prevalent in most lists - why not return the venom cannon to 2-3 shots from the blast marker, remove the -1 and adjust its stats into having an appropriate AA function - then the hive tyrant, harpy, carnifex, warrior would have options to deal with flyers - gives the player some options with lists.

Since GW doesn't seem to like doing detailed errata to fix dex problems (as easy as it would be - think of the pyrovore models you could sell with a few minor changes), we will have to wait 3+ years for the next dex and hope.