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The simplest and best "retro grade" would be to simple bring back the ID immunity effect of Synapse, possibly as the using the new EW rules. Suddenly Raveners, Warriors(all flavors), Thropes (even pyrovores) become much harder to remove from the board.

Swapping regeneration rule for the It will not Die USR would be nice, also.


EDIT: A return of flesh hooks so we can get assault grenades again.

barnowl wrote:The simplest and best "retro grade" would be to simple bring back the ID immunity effect of Synapse, possibly as the using the new EW rules. Suddenly Raveners, Warriors(all flavors), Thropes (even pyrovores) become much harder to remove from the board.

Swapping regeneration rule for the It will not Die USR would be nice, also.


EDIT: A return of flesh hooks so we can get assault grenades again.

I really dont like the idea of invulns on anything but very elite units (zoeys, etc). Tyranids are meant to be basically disposable for the hive mind, even the larger ones. Invulns would just make them too much like daemons.

Instead they should be made tougher to show the effect of the hive mind letting them ignore injuries. Free EW on synapse creatures would be a good way to implement this. I'd also love to see a bulkier, redesigned carnifex kit that would suit a change to T8 with FNP. This would justify a role as a damage sponge meant to draw fire or tear stuff up if left unchecked

xttz wrote:

barnowl wrote:The simplest and best "retro grade" would be to simple bring back the ID immunity effect of Synapse, possibly as the using the new EW rules. Suddenly Raveners, Warriors(all flavors), Thropes (even pyrovores) become much harder to remove from the board.

Swapping regeneration rule for the It will not Die USR would be nice, also.


EDIT: A return of flesh hooks so we can get assault grenades again.

I really dont like the idea of invulns on anything but very elite units (zoeys, etc). Tyranids are meant to be basically disposable for the hive mind, even the larger ones. Invulns would just make them too much like daemons.

Instead they should be made tougher to show the effect of the hive mind letting them ignore injuries. Free EW on synapse creatures would be a good way to implement this. I'd also love to see a bulkier, redesigned carnifex kit that would suit a change to T8 with FNP. This would justify a role as a damage sponge meant to draw fire or tear stuff up if left unchecked

I agree that giving too many invulnerable saves really changes the feel of the tyranids, but if the nids are really supposed to be an army which each and every unit can be used as expendable cannon fodder it would help if the tyranids has more abilities which encouraged their units to be disposable.

For example if when a MC died it released a bunch of gaunts or ripper swarms, you would be encouraged to play with the MCs as fodder. Similar to the way it is often optimal to send Celestine on a suicide mission to strike a critical point early on relying on her resurrection power to bring her back into play late game. Celestine's power encourages you to treat her as disposable rather than protect her.

The designers over at games workshop should try and come up with new mechanics that encourage that sort of game play. As it is, you still want to play nids the way you place most non-elite armies tossing away troops to protect your better units and even then you should be trying to minimize nids losses because their troops as so weak you can't really rely on them to trade wounds with the opponent most of the time. While I don't want to see nids rising from the dead their should be some sort ability they could add to nids to make disposable gameplay more viable and intuitive.

For example if, when a broodlord died all your other broodlords got a temporary boost to their psychic mastery level, you would be end up tactically planning for a genetealer unit to get wiped out to get that bonus right? Similarly if MC freely spawned rippers when they died you might toss away a wounded MC to tie up a squad of marines for another round. Currently the only units we have that are really expendable is gaunts, HQs and elites are just too important not to protect like crazy and fast attack or heavy supports are too expensive to be disposable for the most part. A couple more disposable by design units and/or options I think would go a long way toward changing nids game play towards that direction.

xttz wrote:Let's see...

Abilities

Change Hive Commander to let you reassign reserve rolls between units and/or choose to fail successful rolls. This opens up use of Trygon tunnels and Lictor reserve / DS bonuses and stops Hive Commander stacking uselessly with other reserve abilities

Replace Indescribable Horror upgrade with something more useful. Perhaps a 'Spirit Stones' equivalent that makes HT's mastery level 2.

Swarmlord should have EW as standard, and maybe have the ability to grant it to another unit like it can with PE.

Give Hive Guard a purchasable upgrade for Skyfire. It fits their fluff nicely.

Replace Regeneration with It Will Not Die.

Allow units with Adrenal Glands to assault from Outflank/Deepstrike

Units

Hive Tyrants should be slightly cheaper (-10pts) or have 5 wounds.

Tyranid Warriors should be either T5 W2, have EW, or a 3+ save as standard. As it stands they cost as much as Terminators without any survivability.

All MC's should be at least WS4 / Init 2. There's no excuse for WS3/I1 on 200pt+ units.

All MC's should be able to purchase the Armoured Shell upgrade.

Treat Pyrovores and Venomthropes as 'Wolf Guard' style IC's that can be attached to broods. Pyrovores should be T5 W3 too.

Carnifex needs either a ~30pt cost reduction, or buffs to justify the price. Making it T8 would be nice to see and give it a role over other MC's. Free Bio-Plasma would also be cool.

Give the Harpy a bonus to Vector Strikes (extra strength against flyers/skimmers), giving it an anti-flyer niche.

Move Lictors/DeathLeaper to Fast Attack.

Ripper Swarms should not use up FOC slots, have Outflank, and be able to assault the turn they arrive.

Weapons

Venom Cannons should be AP3. Nids have precious little ranged anti-MEQ that doesn't involve melee or a bucket full of dice.

Make Barbed Stranglers / Stranglethorns slightly cheaper.

Make Fleshborer Hive twin-linked and/or S5

Rupture Cannon should be either AP2, twin-linked, or Assault 4 to compensate for the vehicle damage table changes.

Drop the cost of Crushing Claws to 15/20pts.

I like these ideas, how about this?

Indescribable Horror should function as usual but force the LD leadership on 3d6 and be a tad cheaper, say 15 points.

Thorax Swarm for Hive Tyrant should be 15-20 points and be allowed with Wings or Armored Shell.

Strangleweb should be 5 points, str 4 ap -

Pyrovore should have the same stats/points as the Hiveguard, move to Fast Attack, be allowed to join broods and have an upgrade for Fleet so he can join and keep up with fast units. Volatile is triggered by when reduced to 0 wounds.

Carnifex comes with FnP to make them the living battering ram they are as suggested by Broodstar in his thread.

Mawloc may re-roll scatter dice.

Chameolonic Skin allows Assault out of reserve.

Ripper Swarms cause Fear. Would make them a more attractive screening unit and who wants to charge into a tide of grinding mouths?



BTW, can we get this thread moved to proposed rules?

I'd rather see Tyranids get more interesting than just 'fixed'. That obviously helps, but they'll still be terribly bland.

Things like make Carnifexes charging something actually scary. Give them the D3 HoW attacks chariots get to show them bowling enemy troops and tanks alike around like toys.

Let Tyranid Primes take Ravener bodies or wings, which unlock Raveners and Shrikes as troops. Bring back without number and give it to Hormagaunts, since they are the bullet sponges that attack in waves to deplete ammo - and make this work with the Trygon tunnel.

Basically, make them a terrifying close combat threat again and ways to mix up your unit selections through Warrior Prime upgrades.

Apparently you're all missing the point: all Tyranid players really need is for more raving GW fanboys to tell them how balance is unnecessary and how much they should enjoy the privilege of losing to players with more competitive codices...

1. Change onslaught so that it allows affected unit to shoot OR assault after running. BOOM. Assault range is a go!
2. Intervening units of 10 or more models may perform "Look out Sir!" (4+) on wounds for a SEPERATE unit that is within 6". (must be in between firer and targeted unit)
3. If the Synapse creature has an 18" synapse, (Swarmy, Dominion) increase their SitW range too!
4. Flying Monstrous creatures may "Smash" when performing Vector Strikes.
5. Ok, frag grenades. Not too creative there. Maybe do it on the Venomthrope, nearby units have Offensive and Defensive grenades. (Enemy is choking on spores when theyre being assaulted.)

All of these make sense in my mind...

Great idea here. Give Tyranid Warriors a 4+ LOS that must be allocated to Termagants (12" and only if they lie between firer and TW) or Gargs if it is Shrikes.

wow I really like everything so far keep it coming.

-Loki- wrote:I'd rather see Tyranids get more interesting than just 'fixed'. That obviously helps, but they'll still be terribly bland.

Things like make Carnifexes charging something actually scary. Give them the D3 HoW attacks chariots get to show them bowling enemy troops and tanks alike around like toys.

Let Tyranid Primes take Ravener bodies or wings, which unlock Raveners and Shrikes as troops. Bring back without number and give it to Hormagaunts, since they are the bullet sponges that attack in waves to deplete ammo - and make this work with the Trygon tunnel.

Basically, make them a terrifying close combat threat again and ways to mix up your unit selections through Warrior Prime upgrades.

This^

GW missed a great opportunity with the tyranid prime and the shrike/warrior/ravener connection as mentioned by Loki. And warriors/shrikes need T5 or be cheaper. Warriors should be the mid range bug that the Hive adapts to cover off its needs to support the little and big bugs so should have decent anti-infantry and anti-tank options (should get a skyfire option), options to allow thme to keep up and work with the CC units, options to upgrade to fleet and flesh hooks for fighting in terrain (other solely CC units should also have flesh hooks (hormies, raveners).

And the carnifex should return to some of its former glory - make crushing claws cheaper and more useful in crushing/flipping vehicles. It is sad when a kit like the fex, which has so many options in the kit that mean nothing now, while other kits like warriors don't have 3 sets of rending claws or the new tyrant doesn't come with devourers. I am tired of seeing dakkafexes when I do see a carnifex - make the other options worthwhile.

Make spinegaunts the same point cost as a termagant so that those that have piles of them from 4th will use them with tervigons since there isn't really much diff between the weapons.

Give the Hive Tyrant the same psychic powers that the tervigon has as options with its other choices (2 of which need to be fixed).

Yes, I would like to have a new dex but with a good, detailed errata (that would not be difficult to do) the army would be much more functional and would offer more variety in units used. The comments about pyrovores that was mentioned a post or two above providing some rule/stat adjustment and moving it to fast attack would allow for its use. I want to buy a pyrovre and I'm sure GW must want to sell them (and I can't imagine they sold many). A slight adjustment and it might fly off the shelves.

What Ventus said. +1.

One of the primary Tyranid weaknesses is that Cruddace seemed to think that MCs are just as durable as vehicles-they most certainly weren't in 5th, but now the gap has been lessened. In 5th, you only needed sustained fire from reasonable-strength weapons to kill MCs, but to kill tanks, you needed dedicated anti-tank weapons, like meltas or lascannons. However, with hull points, they're closer to equal, so Tyranids are a lot better now, though they still have the disadvantages of few 2+ saves and no possible mech lists.

Depends how you define mech lists. With the changes to vehicles in 6th (and not just hull points), vehicles and monstrous creatures are closer than ever. I'd say nidzilla list with a few Tervigons is basically a nid mechanized list now.

Not really. They're different in that the Tervigon has a potentially unlimited but random "embarked models" that may run out. Being so large and vital it gets shot quickly. Plus they arn't cheap , unlike transports.

Vehicles have 1 major advantage over the Bid dex. While Str 4 needs 6+ to hurt a vehicle, minimum, anything in the Nid dex can be hurt by Str 3. In fact, a volley of Stormtrooper or Sternguard with Vengeance Rounds has the potential to wipe any Nid creature off the board except for the Tyrant (Armoured Shell or Swooping Wings) or Tyrannofexes.

Another problem with comparing MC to vehicles is the fact that Nid MC's are more expensive and slower than the average vehicle.

Off the top of my head the cheapest MC Nids can make is still 160 points and that is bone stock with nothing extra. For that same price you can kit out a leman russ or predator and still have some points left over. Also a lot of vehicles are only weak on the rear making the avenues of attack very limited. Vehicles are also faster with the option to move 12' or more. Since Nids have no vehicles, Nid MCs should be slightly cheaper than a vehicle or at least equivalent to the cost of most walkers.

Much like Tyranid Warriors, our MCs either need to be cheaper (my preference because I want to spam them) or tougher at their current cost (like EW, more wounds, a standard good regen ability, higher toughness, etc.).

"Nids are good on a unit by unit basis. It is their FoC that limits them.

Simply make Lictors FA and make Death Leapers an upgrade or character model

Make the Pyrovore an upgrade instead of an Elite

Get rid of the Sky slasher swarms, they are basically the same thing as Shrikes.

Spore mines should be outside of the FoC, maybe linked to how much of a certain unit taken.


IMO, there are things to be explored before any decision on a major rewrite of the codex. Seems like either the Prime and the Parasite of Mortex might be interesting with their IC status. Also, seems like 6th ed might have made Spods somewhat viable.

Just some ideas

My personal suggestions?

10% Pointscost reduction on everything about the Hive Tyrant and Tyranid Prime without some form of Eternal Warrior, or a 3+ Invulnerable Save.

Make the special characters actually useful somehow, by jimminy.

Elites: Carnifexes, Lictors, Hive Guard, Venomthropes. Let Venomthropes be 1-3 IC's like Sang Priests.

Troops: Consolidate Hormagants and Termagaunts; let Units be a mix of either. Bring back Scuttling Swarm, let them take Frag Grenades again, and remove the Hormagaunt special movement rules in favor of simply making them Fleet. Make the Strangleweb.... good. I dunno. Small blast 12" or something.

Genestealers can be ymgarls as upgrades, 10% price reduction, let them have grenades, let them run and assault in the same turn, or let them assault from outflank/reserves.

Warriors: T5 W2 1 scything claw base, 25 points. Seriously. Let them take other weapons to equal same-cost as now, or 5 points less. These things are ridiculously expensive for the only truly "killy" choice out there. Let Shrikes simply be an upgrade.

Mycetic spore: Let Alpha be part of a unit using this.

Rippers: Skyslasher swarms be an upgrade.

Fast Attack: Move the Mawloc here. Clarify that it can or can't hit fliers, it doesn't matter as long as it's clear. Give Raveners a points and wounds reduction, to 25 points for 2 wounds - start them with rending and 2 scything, and let them replace the rending with weapons, and the scythign with rending.

Heavy SUpport: Move Zoans and Doom here. Make the area around Trygon tunnels area terrain for tyranids, and synapse. Lower the cost of Tyrannofexes by ~30, give them BS4 and make their shells ap2, or give their shells the blast rule.

ID immunity for Synapse would be a little much IMO. Some protection for sure of course.


I think the following would work for Nids as a whole.

1: Hive Tyrants get a 5+ invuln and the Eternal Warrior special rule.

2: Carnifex's can purchase 2+ saves again, and all their old Biomorphs back.

3: Hive Tyrants can purchase a second Mastery Level(to take advantage of the new psychic powers)

4: Tervigons gain the option to upgrade to spawn Hormies instead of Termigants.

5: Genestealers gain the ability to assault from Outflank.

6: Hive Guard can purchase the Skyfire special rule.

7: Synapse provides some protection against ID. Something like "Roll a D6 for each ID causing wound suffered. On a 4+ the Hive Mind's will sustains the creature and it does not suffer Instant Death"

This is a nice thread and it would be great if someone important from GW actually paid attention to it.

But alas, if anything was to change we won't be getting a new dex for some time.

Currently we have to make do but it really isn't all bad.
Yes, tactics need to change in 6th and so far it feels theres only a few viable builds.

I respect anyone that plays Nids because its a challenging army to do well with.

Good luck in 6'th bug brothers.

chrisrawr wrote:Troops: Consolidate Hormagants and Termagaunts; let Units be a mix of either.

Not a fan. Hormagaunts are more than just gaunts with scything talons, and really deserve to be their own unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:7: Synapse provides some protection against ID. Something like "Roll a D6 for each ID causing wound suffered. On a 4+ the Hive Mind's will sustains the creature and it does not suffer Instant Death"

They could always only apply EW from certain synapse units - say, Hive Tyrants and Swarmlords. It would give a bit of importance back to those as actual leaders and make you have some tough decisions - do you want your Tyrant out and about killing things, or keeping formation to make your Warriors a lot tougher? And would also show that these units are the absolute pinnacle of synapse control, through which the hive mind exerts its most potent influence.

L0rdF1end wrote:This is a nice thread and it would be great if someone important from GW actually paid attention to it.

But alas, if anything was to change we won't be getting a new dex for some time.

2e = 1995
3e = 2001
4e = 2005
5e = 2010
6e ~2015

Models for all of their units.

That is all.

For what it's worth!

- More customisability. The Hive Mind can supposedly design biomorphs as it wants but so many nid units are totally vanilla, virtually all the elites. Weighing up upgrades is a big part of the fun of designing an army for me. All my GK units and virtually all the characters have loads of options.

- A harpy model. I fought my mate's converted one and it was a huge pain in the backside, it was great. Really good value for the price too. Given how powerul and ubiquitous flyers are going to be nids need their's ASAP.

- More useful units in certain slots, especially fast attack.

- I agree that inv might be a bit out of character for nids, so how about Feel No Pain. It effectively does the same job but in a more nid-like way, driven on through horrific wounds by the Hive Mind. Possibly as an upgrade but it would be sensible on tyrants for example and certainly tyrant guard.

- Weapon options on hive guard and others. A bit more customisability.

- Tyrannofex is supposed to be a dedicated shooting unit but has BS3? That tends to reduce it to more of a mobile fortress that soaks up enemy fire and occasionally hits, why do hive guard have BS4 and tyrannofex BS3?

Isengard wrote:- More customisability. The Hive Mind can supposedly design biomorphs as it wants but so many nid units are totally vanilla, virtually all the elites. Weighing up upgrades is a big part of the fun of designing an army for me. All my GK units and virtually all the characters have loads of options.

Well that actually still fits the fluff. There's three main types of Tyranid species. Super specialised - Hive Guard, Genestealers, Hormagaunts, Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Pyrovores, Lictors, Biovores, Venomthropes etc are designed with one, specific use, and designed to do it well (Pyrovore jokes aside). There are those that are variably specialised. Things like Raveners which are shock assault, but can have some light fire support or different assault weapons, Harpies for air support, but useful as anti tank or anti infantry depending on how they're grown.

Then there's the species which are basically templates. The gaunt genus is the basic light infantry. It can have a variety of light bioguns but isn't meant to do much in the way of heavy hitting. Tyranid Warriors are the mid sized template, designed to be anything. Shock assault with boneswords, air support with wings, fire support with death spitters and venom cannons or barbed stranglers. This is the jack of all trades genus. The Carnifex is the heavy hitting template, designed to do the heavy lifting but in multiple roles. Boarding actions and line breaking with scything talons and crushing claws, heavy fire support with larger devourers and heavy venom cannons and stranglethorn cannons.

Some of the super specialised units come from the super generalist templates. Lictors are a form of Warrior, Hormagaunts a form of gaunt. So the current book does actually cover the huge biomorph range Tyranids are known for. The problem is the 4th edition book did them so much better, and even with the reduced range of biomorphs in the 5th edition book, they're all generally priced terribly. Even gaunts have some stinkers with the spinegaunts and stranglewebs.

Isengard wrote:- A harpy model. I fought my mate's converted one and it was a huge pain in the backside, it was great. Really good value for the price too. Given how powerul and ubiquitous flyers are going to be nids need their's ASAP.

With the huge push they gave Tyranids a few months ago, I'm really surprised they haven't ridden that surge with the Harpy, considering how much everyone loves FMCs.

Isengard wrote:- More useful units in certain slots, especially fast attack.

They don't need more units, they need units distributed better. The main issue is the elite slot is overcrowded, without the ability to spread the goodness amongst the army like other armies can. The ability to buy Venomthropes, Pyrovores, Hive Guard, etc and attach them like independant characters to gaunt brood would go a long way to helping this. Same with moving Ymgarls into being an upgrade for Genestealers rather than their own unit, moving sky slashers as an upgrade for rippers, moving Shrikes as an upgrade for Warriors, etc. This is how they were in 4th (even Ymgarls as Genestealers with feeder tendrils), and it just feels like the studio didn't want to actually design much new stuff for Tyranids, so made extra units out of old upgrades.

Basically, a slight unit reduction and shifting around of units on the FOC and move some to being upgrades instead of their own unit, would free FOC slots up immensely.

Isengard wrote:- I agree that inv might be a bit out of character for nids, so how about Feel No Pain. It effectively does the same job but in a more nid-like way, driven on through horrific wounds by the Hive Mind. Possibly as an upgrade but it would be sensible on tyrants for example and certainly tyrant guard.

I assume you mean from synapse? This doesn't fix the main issue with what removing EW did - it made Warriors worthless due to any S8+ weapon instagibbing them. They're great on paer, and actually worth their cost somewhat, until you play a game and see a whole squad vapourised by a battlecannon. Giving units in synapse won't fix this, since instant death attacks still negate FNP.

Isengard wrote:- Weapon options on hive guard and others. A bit more customisability.

As I said above, these are specialised bioforms. This isn't a problem, since Tyranids use multiple kinds of bioforms. Hive Guard aren't a template. However, I'd like to see them get a skyfire upgrade.

Isengard wrote:- Tyrannofex is supposed to be a dedicated shooting unit but has BS3? That tends to reduce it to more of a mobile fortress that soaks up enemy fire and occasionally hits, why do hive guard have BS4 and tyrannofex BS3?

According to the fluff, the Tyrannofex is more like a linebreaker. Super, super, super tough, designed to get right in the thick of the fighting and last. This means it's going to get assaulted, which it simply cannot do well. Giving it a boost in assault, like giving it at least a set of scything talons and more attacks, would go a long way to making it accomplish this role.

You need to realize the Rupture Cannon is the odd man out weapon. Every single other weapon is designed around its linebreaker role - short ranged, and either really strong, boatloads of short ranged shots or template. The Rupture Cannon is the only long range weapon it has and puts all the other weapons to waste. I wouldn't expect to see the Rupture Cannon go anywhere, but the Tyrannofex needs to be taken in one direction or the other, and right now, everything else aside from the Rupture Cannon points to short ranged line breaker, which it can't do well, while it has a single long ranged gun for long ranged anti tank, which it can't do well.

I was discussing this with my friend a few nights ago and here are some more thoughts:

Give Warriors back the deathspitter as standard and make the devourer a free switch. The deathspitter is their iconic ranged weapon and having to pay for it is like asking Marines to buy their bolter. That said, while it was traditionally a blast weapon I'm also fine with the current statline.

Bring the Warrior-sized models up to T5. Yes, I'll lose that 3rd wound, but right now with any upgrade to toughness now counting against ID checks there is no good reason this should not happen.

Lower the cost of every monstrous creature. A case in point is the tyrannofex, which is priced like a landraider but is: easier to wound, lacks the firepower, lacks mobility, lacks assault troop capacity. For what they can do, many of the MCs are overpriced by a varied amount.

In regards to thorax swarms let us choose per shot which option to use, rather than forcing a choice while building a list. Entire units get this functionality with different ammos or guns (Sternguard & Obliterators), so the fact that the rare units that get this biomorph cannot is bewildering. This would also work for cluster spines & stinger salvo (esp. since we only get one option to use for the model, this could be a fire-for-effect or direct-fire option if you need to justify).

Give the Carnifex an actual role that is not a poor mans Trygon/Tyrannofex. Making it hit like a chariot would be a good way towards this, and frankly just give it bio-plasma standard. It's another iconic ability it's classically had. Also allow bio-plasma to be fired alongside all other guns, ala the thorax swarm. Someone said bring back all the old biomorphs, but I disagree. Most of those upgrades were less "cool idea" and were more "you're bad if you don't take this" or "you're insane if you do." The fact it is still at I1 is another head-scratcher... since its big rule boosts it back to 3/4. Seeing things like this make me feel the design team is actually afraid to give Tyranids certain things directly and try to find a workaround. Just give it to us, we promise the world won't end.

WS3 MCs is an insult. At least boost them to 4 base, with the possible exception of the Mawloc. (short stubby arms and all)

Our troop options in the FoC are fine, along with our HQs. Take Zoanthropes and put them back into heavy support (where they've been every edition but this one) to help ease up the strain on the elites.

Do something with Rippers. Start with losing their drawback of eating themselves outside of synapse. Next step is to make them cheaper, and dare I say don't have them count against the FoC. Another idea would be to make them attachments to units.

Hive guard are fine. A skyfire option seems fluffy but IMO not needed on this unit... on that note...

Give some unit an anti-air option outside of Vector strikes/dual devourers. I imagine we'll see this as an option for the Harpy kit (since I doubt GW will make that big of a kit and only have it be a single option).

It's on a 60mm base, it ignores armor saves... just make the friggin pyrovore a MC like it seems to have been intended, then do something else with it that makes us actually want to purchase this model and use it in game.

Mix up the tyranid weaponry, then price it accordingly. We have no problem finding a str 6 gun at 18 inches, thereby reducing our needs to use many options such as Acid Spray in favor of the Rupture Cannon. Give some of the other weapons versatility in range, ap, or effect. The next step is to look at pricing: no one in their right mind is ever going to take TL-deathspitters over TL-devourers. Twin-linked spinefists does not make them worth spending points on when the shot is weaker than the fleshborer (another thing worthy of a freebie sidegrade imo).

Crushing claws look absolutely cool on anything we put them on. We never buy them. They need one of a few things: be cheaper, be less random, or have more functionality. Perhaps a good place to give us armorbane.

The "cool toys" options on Nid MCs (esp. the Tyrant) are overwhelming, like Acid blood etc. Thing is, I can't think of anyone who actively purchases these things, again due to cost of upgrades alongside the cost of MCs versus effect in game.

We have a huge amount of assault units. Less than a handful get any kind of assault grenade. No Lash whip doesn't count (and it's fine as is). This could fit back into the previous point about superfluous options that are rarely taken: some kind of assault/defensive grenade. Toxic miasma seems like a perfect fit for defensive, and nearly anything could justify assault grenades.

We once had an invul save in voltage field. It was wonderful and mindbogglingly powerful by burning out any other invul save in CC with it. We don't necessarily need the second half, but there is a precedent for Tyranids having an invul outside of warp field.

Give zoanthropes a shot that doesn't require a psychic check, and perhaps is unable to be negated. The warp lance could use some range (maybe based around how many zoanthropes are in the squad: 12/24/36) but is otherwise fine.

If any unit should be able to assault from deepstrike, it's Lictors. They need a definitive role; I'd say make them a 1 unit option with functionality like the deathleaper's combat ability (rend on a 5/6, can go back into reserves). The deathleaper has other abilities to set him apart. Also allow them to use their teleport homer the round they appear.

Allow a unit to be attached to the trygon tunnel and emerge the same round or the round after the trygon appears. If it's the round after, allow the unit to move/assault from the tunnel.

Make the Mawloc's TFTD attack a shooting attack like an orbital bombardment large blast, and then just place the Mawloc in contact or next to the unit afterwards. The model-blast-model function of the attack right now is confusing (esp since the mawloc base is bigger than the blast marker) and needlessly slows the game down, especially by having to move your opponent's models. Make it a high strength armorbane shot with a "gets hot" function to it, reflecting the Mawloc possibly injuring itself when it emerges., but not stopping the attack like "gets hot" would.

Do something with spike rifles and stranglewebs. A longer but weaker shot we pay for fits into the mentality of the spinefist "upgrade" previously discussed, and the strangleweb is next to useless for its point cost. Simply have the spike rifle be an assault sniper rifle (or any kind of sniper rifle), and have the strangleweb check against toughness like 99% of the weapons out there, or make it a much higher strength on the other hand. Heck, make it have the unit hit by it count as being in difficult/dangerous terrain would go a long way to justifying the cost of it.

That's all for now, it's after 5am for me. I'll add more tomorrow.

Warriors:
Primes stay at three wounds and get some cost reduction on their options. Basic warriors change to T5 w 2W. Let the Prime ride in the pod, ffs.

Venomthropes:
Make these jackasses work like Wolf Guard and grant Assault and Defensive Grenades and 5+ cover to any unit one is assigned to. This minor change would solve 90% of the issues the army has, namely being an assault army with no grenades.

Hormagants:
Let them benefit from the Tervigon radiated abilities in the same manner as the regular gants. Slight point adjustment so that a hormie with one upgrade still costs less than an Ork Boy.

MCs:
Reduce the cost of ALL of them by about 40% across the board, except the Tervigon. Stupidly overcosted upgrades that make the monster worse (hi2u poison and crushing claws) should either be changed or made considerably cheaper.

Hive Guard:
Bone Lash as a combined option and make them all characters.

Lash Whips:
These should simply count as Offensive and Defensive grenades to cut down on rules confusion and timing issues.

Those simple changes would make Nids playable, even without a helping hand against flyiers (though 100 point harpies vector striking would fill that role).

Phazael wrote:MCs:
Reduce the cost of ALL of them by about 40% across the board, except the Tervigon. Stupidly overcosted upgrades that make the monster worse (hi2u poison and crushing claws) should either be changed or made considerably cheaper.

FYI - poison is fixed now. As of 6th edition, it works as a to-wound cap rather than a fixed value. So poisoned 4+ wounds on a 4+ unless it would otherwise be better. You also still get the reroll as well if your strength is greater than the enemies toughness. So a Carnifex with toxin sacs is practically going to be wounding everything on a rerollable 2+.

-Loki- wrote:

Phazael wrote:MCs:
Reduce the cost of ALL of them by about 40% across the board, except the Tervigon. Stupidly overcosted upgrades that make the monster worse (hi2u poison and crushing claws) should either be changed or made considerably cheaper.

FYI - poison is fixed now. As of 6th edition, it works as a to-wound cap rather than a fixed value. So poisoned 4+ wounds on a 4+ unless it would otherwise be better. You also still get the reroll as well if your strength is greater than the enemies toughness. So a Carnifex with toxin sacs is practically going to be wounding everything on a rerollable 2+.

Woah, So that re-roll now works even on the better than poison wound roll. that's hectic!

For me the main thing is an errata that makes a real attempt to internally and externally balance the dex (not perfection but it would be pretty simple to adjust many things to make them more useful or useful at all). I'm not talking updating the errata every month - that should never be necessary. Remember the update GW finally gave DA and BT players (I don't play those armies but from what I heard is was something that should have happened long ago and was not enough). But the idea is right, just done in a haphazard fashion.

Many people here have provided numerous ways that would be simple to do in an errata and could make nids so much more enjoyable to play (while addressing some of their problems). Though not to make anything OP as I am not interested in stuff like that. We will all not agree of the way something could be fixed which is fine since any real attempt to address problems is what is important.

I just want to be able to use a variety of units that work efficiently in most games. I wont use a tervigon and shouldn't have to, but I would certainly agree that they are a strong unit in the dex, as are hive guard. If the tervigon (with points adjustment if necessary) could spawn hormagaunts and the spinegaunt was made the same cost as the termagant I might use them. Any dex should allow from a variety of builds that can make strong lists.

I just don't see how letting some units remain less effective/functional and therefore less used and less purchased by players (or causing some players to shelve or sell their army and move to other games) benefits GW. I would be interested to be a fly on the wall in their meetings. I'm sure the designers want to produce a good product and if things slip through that are not very good I would expect them to want to find a way to keep players happy and improve the product. Unless GW employees think everyhting in the nid dex works fine and it is a topnotch army? Makes you wonder.

-Loki- wrote:I'd rather see Tyranids get more interesting than just 'fixed'. That obviously helps, but they'll still be terribly bland.

Things like make Carnifexes charging something actually scary. Give them the D3 HoW attacks chariots get to show them bowling enemy troops and tanks alike around like toys.

Let Tyranid Primes take Ravener bodies or wings, which unlock Raveners and Shrikes as troops. Bring back without number and give it to Hormagaunts, since they are the bullet sponges that attack in waves to deplete ammo - and make this work with the Trygon tunnel.

Basically, make them a terrifying close combat threat again and ways to mix up your unit selections through Warrior Prime upgrades.

A lot of people have suggested some great options for balancing the codex and fixing some of the power issues. However, I also agree with -Loki- that Tyranids have an identity issue that needs to be worked on.

Rippers need to find their place. They need something done to them to give them a reason for existing. Scarab Swarms had a huge and satisfying revamp with the new Necron codex. We need a similar makeover for the Ripper. For example, make them beasts and move them to fast attack. They can't score anyway.

Also, a unreasonable proportion of our codex is devoted to the Spore Mine mechanic, which is clunky and underused. Do something interesting with this or drop it altogether. Different varities of spore mines? Make them actually useful? Make their movement non-random while in synapse?