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So i've seen a lot of excitement and stuff on the net on Tyranid Tervigons regarding the 'awesomeness' of Tervigons and being able to Smash Attack wtih a ton of other bonuses to gain a ton of S10 attacks.

But after finally playing my first game of 6th and using a Tervigon looking over the rule I don't quite get how everyone is arriving at this conclusion that the Tervigon gets a crap load of S10 attacks.

1. Modifiers are applied by multipliers, then addition/substractions first. But the smash attack is a divider or are we calling it a 'negative multiplier'?

2. Smash allows you to halve your attack characteristic. For the tervigon this would mean getting 2 attacks at S10. As I read it, the +1 for assaulting is not to be included into the smash attack as it only accounts for the model's attack characteristic, even if you had crushing claws or warp speed psychic power they would not stack with the Smash attack as the Smash attack seems to be it's own unique attack option set aside from the standard close combat attack you'd normally make.


To conclude it seems to me like the Smash Attack is something different altogether set apart from the standard rules of close combat attacks.

So if someone would be kind enough to point out the relevant counter-argument to this i'd appreciate it.

As it stands it seems rather cheezy to me to stack every + attacks to the smash attack and to grant them all the strength bonus as well when the rules for it seem to indicate that you are giving up on doing your standard attacks in order to do a completely different type of attack that has it's own set rules.

Seems like there is little downside to doing a smash attack otherwise. I mean how many models out there DONT greatly benefit from giving up 1 or 2 of their attacks in order to have double the strength?? If i can guesstimate off the top of my head, there are few models in the game capable of a smash attack that don't benefit either slightly or majorly from smashing every single time. Only the Wraithlords spring to mind as they have ridiculous strength. Anyone done the math hammer on wether to smash or not to smash?

Read the smash rule closely, it tells you to halve your attack characteristic. That last word is key, as that is just what's on your stat line, nothing else, so all other bonuses are applied as normal.

nohman wrote:Read the smash rule closely, it tells you to halve your attack characteristic. That last word is key, as that is just what's on your stat line, nothing else, so all other bonuses are applied as normal.

QFT

3 Attacks drops to 1.5, rounds up to 2.

+1 For charging
+D3 for Warp Speed (if applicable)
+D3 for Crushing Claws (if applicable)

= Tervigons are now as good can openers as carnifexes and trygons.

I know it says that, my argument is that just before you get to that part it says that the Smash attack is done 'instead' of doing your 'close combat attacks'

'when making it's close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a smash attack"

to me this would imply that you can either do your close combat attacks as normal

OR

you can do a completely different type of attack called a Smash Attack. That follows it's own rules.

Any bonus modifiers you have during the game are part of your 'close combat attacks' they don't count as something else you add later on. Unless you are counting the +1 one for charging which is applied upon the act of charging.

Am I being too literal with the wording?

I see this smash attack as a 'new' type of attack you can make in close combat, much like hammer of wrath following it's own set of rules etc.

Or akin to RUN when it was first introduced in 5th ed it is something new altogether.

tetrisphreak wrote:

nohman wrote:Read the smash rule closely, it tells you to halve your attack characteristic. That last word is key, as that is just what's on your stat line, nothing else, so all other bonuses are applied as normal.

QFT

3 Attacks drops to 1.5, rounds up to 2.

+1 For charging
+D3 for Warp Speed (if applicable)
+D3 for Crushing Claws (if applicable)

= Tervigons are now as good can openers as carnifexes and trygons.

This would be correct.

Meh still seems wrong. IMO smash attacks are a different type of attack from the way it's worded.

I would smash at every single opportunity with a tervigon/daemon prince or any other S5 monstrous creature with 4 or less attacks.

Im saying the smash attack is something else following similar rules (albeit with some changes as mentioned)

So the tervigon would not give up every single attack it has in order to do the smash attack. But only the smash attacks would be S10

So

+1A charging
+ D3 Warp Speed
+ D3 Crushing Claws

would occur at it's base strength not at S10. Only the attacks coming from halving it's characteristic (The smash attacks) will be S10 and get any bonuses given by it.

The smash attack rule is very specific that you do it 'instead' of your standard close combat attacks and then specifically says that to determine how many smash attacks you have, you halve your attack characteristic and they count as strength 10. But notice that it says for THAT attack.

Let me give you guys the quotations to make this a bit easier to follow

1. When making it's close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a smash attack

2. A smash attack also doubles the model's strength for the purpose of that attack.

So the way I understand this is that the smash attacks are determined from halving your attack characteristic only. And your other attack bonuses would be resolved at their standard strength/rules

So a tervigon would get 2 S10 attacks and then the +1 charge/+D3 CC/+D3 Warp Speed would be resolved at S5 as normal.

Otherwise why was the distinction made that you can choose to smash attack instead of doing your close combat attacks? The word instead would be used for no reason in that sentence if everything stacks together anyway. And furthermore it says that only THAT attack is resolved at S10, why specifically single out the smash attack as being S10 if every attack you do will be S10 ?

You're reading the rules wrong. It's quite simple - a mc can halve its attack stat to double str in cc. Modifiers are applied according to page 2 in the BRB.

Notice page 2 doesn't address division.

Multipliers/Additions/Subrations all mentioned.

even then the argument doesn't have anything to do with that, it's the fact that the smash attack is done 'instead' of close combat attacks and S10 is only for the purpose of 'that' attack.

Akaiyou wrote:Notice page 2 doesn't address division.

Multipliers/Additions/Subrations all mentioned.

even then the argument doesn't have anything to do with that, it's the fact that the smash attack is done 'instead' of close combat attacks and S10 is only for the purpose of 'that' attack.

You are multiplying by 1/2. It is basic math.

Also your are ignoring certain points like "a model making a Smash Attack can re-roll its armor penitration rolls;"

Penetration rolls. How can you have more then 1 penetration roll if it only gives you one attack.

Gloomfang wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:Notice page 2 doesn't address division.

Multipliers/Additions/Subrations all mentioned.

even then the argument doesn't have anything to do with that, it's the fact that the smash attack is done 'instead' of close combat attacks and S10 is only for the purpose of 'that' attack.

You are multiplying by 1/2. It is basic math.

Also your are ignoring certain points like "a model making a Smash Attack can re-roll its armor penitration rolls;"

Penetration rolls. How can you have more then 1 penetration roll if it only gives you one attack.

40k rules never ever ask you to multiply anything by .5
You are specifically asked to divide when you halve something, putting it in a different way doesn't change the fact that this is not what is being said.

I'm not ignoring that point that you bring up I never said 'that attack' was singular. The Smash Attack is a type of attack where the number of attacks done = halve your attack characteristic.Thus whatever halve your attack characteristic is will determine how many of those attacks are actual S10 etc etc.

If you dissect the Smash rule it has several different rules.

1. First states your attacks are AP2 but not HoW attacks.

2. Gives you the option to make a special kind of attack with it's own rules.

Akaiyou wrote:
40k rules never ever ask you to multiply anything by .5

Then how do you know when Rapid Fire weapons get 2 shots?

Akaiyou wrote:
If you dissect the Smash rule it has several different rules.

1. First states your attacks are AP2 but not HoW attacks.

2. Gives you the option to make a special kind of attack with it's own rules.

It's a special kind of close combat attack.
How many close combat attacks does a Tervigon make?

Does a charge add a close combat attack?
Do crushing claws add close combat attacks?
Does warp speed add close combat attacks?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:
40k rules never ever ask you to multiply anything by .5

Then how do you know when Rapid Fire weapons get 2 shots?

Huh? What does that have to do with rapid fire? Rapid fire doesnt ask you to multiply by .5 either

Here is the rule

"If a unit shooting rapid fire weapons is found to be partially within half range of the target, the firing models within half range fire two shots"

The word half is used. It doesn't say multiply by .5 to determine distance. This is division.

rigeld2 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:
If you dissect the Smash rule it has several different rules.

1. First states your attacks are AP2 but not HoW attacks.

2. Gives you the option to make a special kind of attack with it's own rules.

It's a special kind of close combat attack.
How many close combat attacks does a Tervigon make?

Does a charge add a close combat attack?
Do crushing claws add close combat attacks?
Does warp speed add close combat attacks?

That's exactly my point...it is a 'special' kind of close combat attack that does not include your other close combat attacks in it's benefits.

The Tervigon would still get the extra attacks but not at S10 because from the very first sentence they were excluded from the smash attack, otherwise what exactly are you excluding when you read the first sentence of the smash attack rule?? I think thats the question that needs to be answered...

Akaiyou wrote:
So the tervigon would not give up every single attack it has in order to do the smash attack. But only the smash attacks would be S10

So
+1A charging
+ D3 Warp Speed
+ D3 Crushing Claws

3 attacks, + 1 charge, +D3 +D3.

If you look under the rules for characteristic modifiers, it says that all characteristics are between 0-10, Except for attacks and wounds, they can be modified above 10.
The nature of +1 attack modifies your attack characteristic. The rule doesn't need to say "Charging adds +1 to your attack characteristic which is a modifier" in order for it to be a modifier.
You're halving the characteristic, and all those bonus attacks are modifiers.
A charging warp speed crushing claw Tervigon can have an attack characteristic of 10.
The arguement must be, is Halve attacks mean Multiply by 0.5, which forces it first in order of operations as per modifier, or does it mean something else?

If you look at the close combat process on page 24, you determine number of attacks first.

Then you roll to hit, then wound... blah blah blah.

Smash says: When it makes it's close combat attacks, it can choose to smash instead, but it halves it's attack characteristic.
If you walk through the assault phase, at initiative 1, you'd roll up how many attacks you have, and then, before "making the attacks", decided to smash or not.

This whole process is pretty messy. You're argueing what is and isn't a chracteristic modifier, is half multiplying by 0.5, and what the rules mean by "Making attacks".





As for Half, here's the other mess example.
Night Shield and rapid fire. Night shield says -6" on weapon ranges. Rapid fire is twice at half range.
Does a bolter fire twice at 9", or twice at 6"?
24" range, -6" for night shield is 18, half for rapid fire is 9.
Or
24" range, half for rapid fire is 12", -6 for night shield is 6".
Weapon range isn't a characteristic defined on page 2, so order of operations might not apply.

Warp Speed states +D3 Attacks (Not attacks) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Crushing claws also adds +D3 Attacks (Not attacks) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Charge also states +1 Attack (Not attack) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

DeathReaper wrote:Warp Speed states +D3 Attacks (Not attacks) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Crushing claws also adds +D3 Attacks (Not attacks) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Charge also states +1 Attack (Not attack) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

That is totaly right. And given the rules on applying modifers you end up with 2+D3+D3+1 attacks with Smash.

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagree with that from your post.

Well Modifiers do not mention division.

So when do we apply the Half attacks?

RAW it does not say, but It seems to mean that you get half of your Attacks characteristic.

Which is Attacks +D3+D3+1 Halved.

It is really not so clear, so maybe wait for an FAQ?

DeathReaper wrote:Warp Speed states +D3 Attacks (Not attacks) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Crushing claws also adds +D3 Attacks (Not attacks) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Charge also states +1 Attack (Not attack) so those are added to the Attacks characteristic.

Order of Modifiers Operations:

Multiply/Divide
Then Add/Subtract
Then Set Value.

SO no matter how you look at it:
Stat 4/2 (or 4*1/2)=2
2+d3+d3+1= 3+2d3.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Order of Modifiers Operations:

Multiply/Divide
Then Add/Subtract
Then Set Value.

Where does it say that?

I only see Multipliers then Then Add/Subtract, Then Set Value.

nothing about Division.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Order of Modifiers Operations:

Multiply/Divide
Then Add/Subtract
Then Set Value.

Where does it say that?

I only see Multipliers then Then Add/Subtract, Then Set Value.

nothing about Division.

Math.

Math Says that.

Multiplication and division are the same thing, just from different directions.

To Halve is either to divide by 2 or to multiply by 1/2(or .5).

Smash does not specify that you divide, and the rules do not cover division at all; so we must assume that in order to work within the rules that the Halving of the attacks characteristic, that we are to multiply by 1/2 or by .5(same exact thing).

So taking the definition of division in mathematics(A=BxC, and C=A/B whereB=/=0.) we are left with Division being a Multiplier.

And in either case(division as a multiplier, or Halving required to be Multiplying by one-half to fit in the rules), you follow the order and Smash = A*.5+all other modifiers.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Order of Modifiers Operations:

Multiply/Divide
Then Add/Subtract
Then Set Value.

Where does it say that?

I only see Multipliers then Then Add/Subtract, Then Set Value.

nothing about Division.

Math.

Math Says that.

Multiplication and division are the same thing, just from different directions.

Different directions means that aren't the same thing, now are they?

So a night shielded Dark Eldar vehicle cannot be rapid fired at by warp spiders?
12" range, half for 6, -6 for night shields.

I'm not sold on Halve the attacks is the same as Multiple by 0.5 for characteristic modification.
Mathmatically yes, warhammer... maybe not.

-Matt

DeathReaper wrote:Well Modifiers do not mention division.

So when do we apply the Half attacks?

RAW it does not say, but It seems to mean that you get half of your Attacks characteristic.

Which is Attacks +D3+D3+1 Halved.

It is really not so clear, so maybe wait for an FAQ?

So you would let your opponet with a S3 psyker and a powerfist who casts iron arm do this.

3+D3 and the double it?

The rules are pretty clear on opperations.

The rules say to apply multipliers first.

To half something is to apply a multiplier of 1/2 to it.

I don't really see how this could be made much clearer.

Arson Fire wrote:The rules say to apply multipliers first.

To half something is to apply a multiplier of 1/2 to it.

I don't really see how this could be made much clearer.

This. Page 2, left hand column, under "Multiple Modifiers".

Division is multiplication by a value of less than one. That's what it means. It's not a workaround, it's not a different direction, it's not an alternative - they are equivalent, which, by definition, means that they are the same in all circumstances. So, any division modifiers are applied at the same time as multiplicative ones.

Everything that modifies Attacks modifies the Attacks Characteristic, so the exact wording of Smash does not change things - the halving is applied first because the rules on page 2 say that it's applied first.

Gloomfang wrote:The rules are pretty clear on opperations.

Yes, and they do not mention division at all.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:The rules are pretty clear on opperations.

Yes, and they do not mention division at all.

And show me where the word "divide" shows up in the rules for Smash. It states to halve. To halve means to reduce to 50% of its original value. So technically the equation for performing that opperation A(Smash)= A(base) * 50%. So 3*50%= 150%. As we need to have an intiger we must change this from a percentage of the original A(base). So to remove the % you must express it as a ratio of 150%/100%. That will give us A(smash)=1.5.

Fortunatly the rules tell us if we end up with a remainder we should round up to the next whole number. So A(smash)=2.

You then go and apply other modifiers per the rules. Unless you need the mathmatical proof for those as well.

But again the point stands. Smash lacks the word divide that you are hung up on.

(Last math class I had to take was Math 680, but that was 13 years ago when I was working on my first engineering degree. But I doubt the basics have changed that much.)

Gloomfang wrote:And show me where the word "divide" shows up in the rules for Smash. It states to halve. To halve means to reduce to 50% of its original value. So technically the equation for performing that opperation A(Smash)= A(base) * 50%. So 3*50%= 150%. As we need to have an intiger we must change this from a percentage of the original A(base). So to remove the % you must express it as a ratio of 150%/100%. That will give us A(smash)=1.5.

Fortunatly the rules tell us if we end up with a remainder we should round up to the next whole number. So A(smash)=2.

You then go and apply other modifiers per the rules. Unless you need the mathmatical proof for those as well.

But again the point stands. Smash lacks the word divide that you are hung up on.

(Last math class I had to take was Math 680, but that was 13 years ago when I was working on my first engineering degree. But I doubt the basics have changed that much.)

Sure Halve the Attacks characteristic. further solidifying that it does not follow the rules on P.2 at all.

"To halve means to reduce to 50%" (You are correct here.)

"of its original value" So close and yet so far. Why are you halving the original value? Smash makes no mention of original value, just "Attacks characteristic".

Unless your version of the book says Halve the original value.

Modifiers (Pg2)
"Special rules can modify a model's characteristics positivly or negativly"

Characteristic Profiles(pg3)
"has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics."

Refrence Codex:Tyranids (pg413)
Tervigon A3


So Smash is a Special Rule (as it is in the Special Rule section). Smash states to halve the "Attacks characteristic". That requires us to modify the Attack characteristic. The rules to perform the modification (pg2) tells that special rules allow modifications to characteristics. Pg3 informs us that a model's characteristics are defined in its Profile as written in its Codec or in the reffrence section of the BRB. Both define the Tervigon's profile as having an Attack characteristic of 3.

That series of rules defines the original value to be modifed by the Smash attack as the number of Attacks listed in the model's profile. In the case of the Tervigon that is 3 attacks.

(Posted from my phone so ignore typos)

here's a great way to understand multiplication/division:

Remember the division symbol? it's a fraction with a dot above and below the fraction line. Division is literally "First item" / (over) "Second Item"

Think about it.

5 divided by 2 = 5/2 = 5/1 Multiplied by 1/2

Make sense?

While I can see where the arguement is, unless otherwise directed by a TO HIWPI is going to be the total Attacks characticts halved. Making the order of operations (3+1+D3+D3)/2 as IMO that is what the Intention is.