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Mannahnin wrote:All modifiers are resolved as explained under Multiple Modifiers, regardless of when they are applied. There is no conflict between Smash and Multiple Modifiers, therefore Basic vs. Advanced doesn't enter into the discussion.

Tervigon = 2A, halved for Smashing,+ 2 (e.g.) for Crushing Claws, +1 for charging = 4 attacks.

I believe this is key. No matter when they are applied, they resolve the same way.

Except what your missing is the line "roll to hit as normal, but halve its Attack characteristic" can mean two things.

1)do I go through the process of rolling to hit as normal, halving profile attacks and bonus attacks?
or
2) do I go through rolling to hit as normal, but with an extra 1/2 modifier?

cowmonaut wrote: Multiplication and Division are the same operation in different directions, just like addition and subtraction.

Yet they specifically mention Additions or Subtractions...

I get that division and multiplication are the same in the real world, just like addition and subtraction are the same thing. (So it is not ignorance, It is following the RAW, since they specifically mention addition, subtraction, and multipliers)

However in the actual rules they specifically mention multipliers, addition and subtraction, and they do not mention Halve (Division) Specifically in the Multiple modifiers section.

But the math does not really matter anyway as the Advanced rule of smash Halves your Attacks Characteristic.

The bonus attacks from charging, warp speed, and crushing claws are added to your Attacks characteristic.

and we know from P.5 that Attacks and Wounds are the only Characteristics that can be raised above 10.

How do you raise a Characteristic?

You add bonuses into it (Like charge gives +1 Attack, Warp speed +D3 Attacks, and Crushing claws +D3 Attacks).

Half is a multiplier, and a divisor. By definition.

Stop with that argument, it is pointless. It detracts from the only argument left - timing.

DeathReaper wrote:
How do you raise a Characteristic?

You add bonuses into it (Like charge gives +1 Attack, Warp speed +D3 Attacks, and Crushing claws +D3 Attacks).

Not entirely correct. You add a modifier to it. I could be a bonus or a penalty, but they're both modifiers.

Xzerios wrote:Your told when to apply your modifications on page 429. The Smash special rule tells you when to half. Outlined above. :3

Actually, Page 429 only tells you that you get a number of attacks equal to your characteristic plus bonuses. It doesn't tell you that all modifiers to your Attack Characteristic are applied then. But I won't argue too strongly against that without some supporting evidence. I'll see if I can dig up anything...

DeathReaper wrote:Yet they specifically mention Additions or Subtractions...

I get that division and multiplication are the same in the real world, just like addition and subtraction are the same thing. (So it is not ignorance, It is following the RAW, since they specifically mention addition, subtraction, and multipliers)

However in the actual rules they specifically mention multipliers, addition and subtraction, and they do not mention Halve (Division) Specifically in the Multiple modifiers section.

But the math does not really matter anyway as the Advanced Rule of smash Halves your Attacks Characteristic.

Okay, so if Smash wasn't an Advanced Rule we would follow the Multiple Modifiers rule. Since it is an Advanced Rule you are saying we ignore the basic rule for multiple modifiers. I can accept that line of reasoning.

So when do you declare what type of attack(s) you are making in combat? It would be during your Initiative Step and after you calculate your bonus attacks, right? Don't you declare just prior to rolling to Hit?

If that's the case, then you tally up everything, divide by 2, and round up to get your number of attacks. Which is what you have been trying to state was the case if I am not mistaken?

If I'm right about what you are trying to state, I again don't know why on earth you bothered arguing other facts that don't really even apply to your argument...

DeathReaper wrote:The bonus attacks from charging, warp speed, and crushing claws are added to your Attacks characteristic.

Not being debated or really relevant to the argument at hand...

DeathReaper wrote:and we know from P.5 that Attacks and Wounds are the only Characteristics that can be raised above 10.

Not being debated or really relevant to the argument at hand...

DeathReaper wrote:How do you raise a Characteristic?

You add bonuses into it (Like charge gives +1 Attack, Warp speed +D3 Attacks, and Crushing claws +D3 Attacks).

Not being debated or really relevant to the argument at hand...

cowmonaut wrote:Actually, Page 429 only tells you that you get a number of attacks equal to your characteristic plus bonuses. It doesn't tell you that all modifiers to your Attack Characteristic are applied then. But I won't argue too strongly against that without some supporting evidence. I'll see if I can dig up anything...

Page 2 tells us that.

"Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10."

If Crushing claws does not add to the characteristic then how wound the Attacks characteristic be raised?

cowmonaut wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The bonus attacks from charging, warp speed, and crushing claws are added to your Attacks characteristic.

Not being debated or really relevant to the argument at hand...

DeathReaper wrote:and we know from P.5 that Attacks and Wounds are the only Characteristics that can be raised above 10.

Not being debated or really relevant to the argument at hand...

DeathReaper wrote:How do you raise a Characteristic?

You add bonuses into it (Like charge gives +1 Attack, Warp speed +D3 Attacks, and Crushing claws +D3 Attacks).

Not being debated or really relevant to the argument at hand...

It is actually relevant, as that adds into the Characteristic and Smash tells us to Halve the Characteristic.

DeathReaper wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:Actually, Page 429 only tells you that you get a number of attacks equal to your characteristic plus bonuses. It doesn't tell you that all modifiers to your Attack Characteristic are applied then. But I won't argue too strongly against that without some supporting evidence. I'll see if I can dig up anything...

Page 2 tells us that.

"Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10."

If Crushing claws does not add to the characteristic then how wound the Attacks characteristic be raised?

Wow dude, who is saying that the Attack Characteristic is not being raised? I haven't seen anyone make that argument. I'm seeing plenty of argument about when its raised.

I'm about to flip flop on the not thinking you are trolling thing. Either you are tired or you are deliberately ignoring what words I actually put in that post. Please go back and read it.

So you agree the Attack Characteristic is being raised.

Good, and Smash Specifically applies to Halve the Attacks Characteristic, which would include all bonuses because you Halve the characteristic when you choose to make a smash attack.

Again, you are ignoring my point. Here, since you obviously did not read it the first time and are choosing to continue to ignore it, please answer the following:

cowmonaut wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Yet they specifically mention Additions or Subtractions...

I get that division and multiplication are the same in the real world, just like addition and subtraction are the same thing. (So it is not ignorance, It is following the RAW, since they specifically mention addition, subtraction, and multipliers)

However in the actual rules they specifically mention multipliers, addition and subtraction, and they do not mention Halve (Division) Specifically in the Multiple modifiers section.

But the math does not really matter anyway as the Advanced Rule of smash Halves your Attacks Characteristic.

Okay, so if Smash wasn't an Advanced Rule we would follow the Multiple Modifiers rule. Since it is an Advanced Rule you are saying we ignore the basic rule for multiple modifiers. I can accept that line of reasoning.

So when do you declare what type of attack(s) you are making in combat? It would be during your Initiative Step and after you calculate your bonus attacks, right? Don't you declare just prior to rolling to Hit?

If that's the case, then you tally up everything, divide by 2, and round up to get your number of attacks. Which is what you have been trying to state was the case if I am not mistaken?

If I'm right about what you are trying to state, I again don't know why on earth you bothered arguing other facts that don't really even apply to your argument...

Also, I find it hilarious that I'm actually starting to side with you and you are arguing with me.

cowmonaut wrote:Okay, so if Smash wasn't an Advanced Rule we would follow the Multiple Modifiers rule. Since it is an Advanced Rule you are saying we ignore the basic rule for multiple modifiers. I can accept that line of reasoning.

So when do you declare what type of attack(s) you are making in combat? It would be during your Initiative Step and after you calculate your bonus attacks, right? Don't you declare just prior to rolling to Hit?

If that's the case, then you tally up everything, divide by 2, and round up to get your number of attacks. Which is what you have been trying to state was the case if I am not mistaken?.

Sorry. at a cursory glance i thought you said something else. I should probably not try and work and post on the forums at the same time.

"you tally up everything, divide by 2, and round up to get your number of attacks" Yes this is the conclusion I see the rules come to.

Yea, skimming posts in a debate can lead to bad things

Okay then. So how I see it, if you want to argue against Smash dividing your total attacks by two (versus the base characteristic), you'd have to prove that you apply characteristics after declaring what type of attack you use. As far as I can tell you would apply all the modifiers when they trigger, and in any event they would all get applied before you can choose to use Smash.

If anyone can find otherwise, I'd be interested.

I can't believe how much time was wasted arguing over nonsense... And I'm damned surprised I got swayed to the (perceived) minority position.

Welcome to the side of Chaos. We have cookies.

It's a compelling argument they have, but ultimately wrong. The sentence in Smash Attack special rule never states when to halve the attacks.

Let me say that again. It never states when to halve the attacks.
It tells you roll To Hit normally.
It tells you halve your attacks characteristic.

It happens to say both things in one sentence, but no where does it say when to halve it. So it is another modifier. All modifiers are resolved as explained under Multiple Modifiers, regardless of when they are applied, unless specifically said so in a advanced rule. There is no conflict between Smash and Multiple Modifiers.

racta, answer me this: when do you declare what types of attacks you will be making in close combat?

Before rolling to hit.

EDIT: I understand that, but the sentence still doesn't specifically tell you when to apply the halve. So we must use the Multiple Modifiers rule. All modifiers are resolved as explained under Multiple Modifiers, regardless of when they are applied, unless an overwriting rule tells you otherwise. This is not one of those cases.

I have to ask, if modifiers are applied and then locked in, so to speak, in order; why do marines with PFs and FC hit at strength 9?

Furious Charge gives +1 strength on the charge. So surely it's +1 strength as he charges, then when it's his initiative step, Strength * 2 which would be 10?

Nothing in that sentence states that you halve your attacks at any time other than the normal times. People who are trying to focus on the "to hit" part are simply trying to take something out of context. Taking the sentence as a whole shows you simply follow the normal procedures for doing a CC attack but with halve the attack characteristic. There is no "time" involved in that sentence as you can rearrange it and it means the exact same thing.

"when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a Smash Attack. If it does so, roll To Hit as normal, but halve its Attacks characteristic." P.42

When it makes its CC attacks is when you can choose to use the Smash rules, That is when you Halve the Attacks Characteristic as specified in the Smash rules.

Smash puts the timing in, and this Advanced rule overrides the basic rules about multiple modifiers.

nohman wrote:I have to ask, if modifiers are applied and then locked in, so to speak, in order; why do marines with PFs and FC hit at strength 9?

Furious Charge gives +1 strength on the charge. So surely it's +1 strength as he charges, then when it's his initiative step, Strength * 2 which would be 10?

Number of Attacks is determined in the step immediately before rolling to hit (page 24)
This is after the correct initiative step has been reached, where all these bonuses are finally applied.
The argument of applying the halving just before rolling to hit (therefore halving the total) fails because this is the step where calculating the number of attacks happens anyway.
Applying the halving modifier does indeed happen just before you roll to hit along with every other modifier (you could even call all these modifiers Multiple Modifiers. Oh wait there's a rule for that).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:Smash puts the timing in, and this Advanced rule overrides the basic rules about multiple modifiers.

Yes it puts the timing in. Right where it's meant to be. No rules clash.

nohman wrote:I have to ask, if modifiers are applied and then locked in, so to speak, in order; why do marines with PFs and FC hit at strength 9?

Good question. The answer being, Warp Speed and the 'Claws are special circumstances outside the norm. With a Power Fist you are getting all of the bonuses to Strength at the same time (during the Initiative Step).

Warp Speed == Movement Phase
Crushing Claws == Fight Sub-Phase
Bonus for Charging == Initiative Step

That's in the order the bonus numbers are generated. Until I see otherwise, it seems you modify the characteristic when you get the bonus. It doesn't seem to make much sense to wait until the Initiative Step, especially when Crushing Claws were specifically FAQ'd to state you roll for it during the start of Fight Sub-Phase (before the Initiative steps).

So racta, Smash does tell you to halve the attack characteristic. I don't care about the "to hit" part. What I do care about is when you can declare you are using a type of melee attack. Several units in the game have multiple types of combat attacks so this should be in the rules.

Look at Space Wolves:

* Thunderwolf Cavalry armed with Wolf Claws can choose between the Rending attacks and the Wolf Claw attacks
* Logan Grimnar can choose to split his attacks between Frost Blade and Power Fist
* Wolf Guard and other Characters armed with multiple types of melee weapons have to choose which to use

And so on.

So when do you declare what kind of attacks you are making? Because that is when you choose to make a Smash Attack and that is when you divide your attack characteristic by two.

Minimally, it seems to me that Warp Speed gets applied before you Smash. So you at least have the 3+D3. My reading of the rules is that you choose which attack to make during your Initiative Step. That would place it after the beginning of the Fight Sub-Phase, giving you 3+D3+D3 before you divide by two, and arguably after you get the bonus for charging.

So again, please tell me when you declare what type of attack you make in combat. It has to be sometime during the Assault Phase. So when specifically?

My money is on it occurring during the Initiative Step.

I ask that this question only be answered by those arguing that smash is applied after all bonus attacks are added.

At what strength does a space marine with a power fist strike at?

grendel083 wrote:(you could even call all these modifiers Multiple Modifiers. Oh wait there's a rule for that)

It could be argued that Smash is an Advanced Rule and overrides the Basic Rule for Multiple Modifiers, since it has a trigger that may occur after you calculate. Humor me and assume for my previous post that this is true, can you tell me when you declare what types of attacks you are making in combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sothas wrote:At what strength does a space marine with a power fist strike at?

This has been answered 2 or 3 times, it still strikes at S9. DeathReaper's assumption is that Smash is an Advanced Rule that overrides the Basic Rule for Multiple Multipliers. His basis for this assumption I can only guess. My basis for the assumption is that declaring what type of attack you are making in combat happens after you calculate modifiers.

Sorry, im on my phone and didn't finish my question.

At what strength does a space marine with a power fist that has been targeted by enfeeble strike at?

cowmonaut wrote:

grendel083 wrote:(you could even call all these modifiers Multiple Modifiers. Oh wait there's a rule for that)

It could be argued that Smash is an Advanced Rule and overrides the Basic Rule for Multiple Modifiers, since it has a trigger that may occur after you calculate. Humor me and assume for my previous post that this is true, can you tell me when you declare what types of attacks you are making in combat?

Ok I'll humour you.
I agree with the Smash wording "When you make a close combat attack". That would put it in the Fight Sub Phase, after pile ins and before determining Number of Attacks.
Reason being at this point you know if the model is eligible to fight, but can't make an attack until you determin how many.

Enfeeble goes off in the Movement Phase. From then on you get -1 Strength and Toughness.

Come the Assault Phase you get to your Initiative Step and apply the additional modifiers from the Power Fist to place you at S6.

At least so it appears to me. Never had Enfeeble come up in game before, but that seems to be how it applies for me.

nohman wrote:I have to ask, if modifiers are applied and then locked in, so to speak, in order; why do marines with PFs and FC hit at strength 9?

Furious Charge gives +1 strength on the charge. So surely it's +1 strength as he charges, then when it's his initiative step, Strength * 2 which would be 10?

Because of multiple modifiers...

cowmonaut wrote:Enfeeble goes off in the Movement Phase. From then on you get -1 Strength and Toughness.

Come the Assault Phase you get to your Initiative Step and apply the additional modifiers from the Power Fist to place you at S6.

At least so it appears to me. Never had Enfeeble come up in game before, but that seems to be how it applies for me.

The problem is its not "additional modifiers" it's just "modifiers". Enfeeble isn't a permanent stat reduction.
So the power fist would be S7 (4x2)-1
Doesn't matter in what order the modifiers are applied in terms of time, just that there are stat modifiers.

grendel083 wrote:Ok I'll humour you.
I agree with the Smash wording "When you make a close combat attack". That would put it in the Fight Sub Phase, after pile ins and before determining Number of Attacks.
Reason being at this point you know if the model is eligible to fight, but can't make an attack until you determin how many.

Thanks for humoring me! So regardless of Smash, you think you declare the types of attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase, before the Initiative Step for the model.

That would indeed change the resulting total a little bit. I would still think that Warp Speed, which happens in the Movement Phase, applies its modifiers in the Movement Phase though.

Given the random nature of BRB powers this doesn't seem game breaking.


Also, I find it interesting that they have all these units that can have multiple types of attacks in this game but don't seem to say when to declare which ones you are using. Can't see anything specific in the Assault Phase rules or under Melee Weapons. For Smash Attacks specifically it seems to be done when you are going to roll the dice however, so I guess I was mistaken previously when I said I don't care about the "To Hit" part...

cowmonaut wrote:Enfeeble goes off in the Movement Phase. From then on you get -1 Strength and Toughness.

Come the Assault Phase you get to your Initiative Step and apply the additional modifiers from the Power Fist to place you at S6.

At least so it appears to me. Never had Enfeeble come up in game before, but that seems to be how it applies for me.

And this would be correct if. There were not rules in place for applying modifiers. My point is that no matter when the modifier occurs it is still a modifier and follows the rules outlined for applying them, otherwise there is little point to having such a rule. As it stands, there is only one modifier that is applied out of this order that specifically and clearly states this. That is hammer hand. There might be another that does so, but is irrelevant for this argument. Point being, that without a clearly stated exception the rule n the bRB for applying modifiers stands. The fact that there is a debate is evidence that it does not clearly state it and thus is not a specific over general rule