Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

cowmonaut wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Ok I'll humour you.
I agree with the Smash wording "When you make a close combat attack". That would put it in the Fight Sub Phase, after pile ins and before determining Number of Attacks.
Reason being at this point you know if the model is eligible to fight, but can't make an attack until you determin how many.

Thanks for humoring me! So regardless of Smash, you think you declare the types of attacks in the Fight Sub-Phase, before the Initiative Step for the model.

That would indeed change the resulting total a little bit. I would still think that Warp Speed, which happens in the Movement Phase, applies its modifiers in the Movement Phase though.

Given the random nature of BRB powers this doesn't seem game breaking.


Also, I find it interesting that they have all these units that can have multiple types of attacks in this game but don't seem to say when to declare which ones you are using. Can't see anything specific in the Assault Phase rules or under Melee Weapons. For Smash Attacks specifically it seems to be done when you are going to roll the dice however, so I guess I was mistaken previously when I said I don't care about the "To Hit" part...

You're welcome.
I actually said after pile ins, which is after initiative step not before but nevermind. Close enough.

Things like warp speed do give a bonus during the movement speed but it's during the "Number of Attacks" step (page 24 just before rolling to hit) that all these bonuses are put together to form your attack total. Up until then you don't have a total, just a series of bonuses/penalties.

grendel083 wrote:The problem is its not "additional modifiers" it's just "modifiers". Enfeeble isn't a permanent stat reduction.
So the power fist would be S7 (4x2)-1
Doesn't matter in what order the modifiers are applied in terms of time, just that there are stat modifiers.

Okay, so if that is the case then for me at least it all sits on when you declare which weapon you are using.

Re-checking through my Space Wolf FAQ and I'm not seeing anything that specifically states a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a Thunder Hammer can elect to use his Rending attacks instead. Logan Grimnar's special rule for the Axe of Morkai seems to tell you when to do it for him.

Teetering back... For me it hinges entirely on when you declare the attack. If it happens after you apply modifiers than DeathReaper is right. If its before, then everyone else seems to be right (and my original position).

Sorry if this seems like circles. Maybe I'm just slow and needed the extra clarifications...

cowmonaut wrote:

grendel083 wrote:The problem is its not "additional modifiers" it's just "modifiers". Enfeeble isn't a permanent stat reduction.
So the power fist would be S7 (4x2)-1
Doesn't matter in what order the modifiers are applied in terms of time, just that there are stat modifiers.

Okay, so if that is the case then for me at least it all sits on when you declare which weapon you are using.

Re-checking through my Space Wolf FAQ and I'm not seeing anything that specifically states a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a Thunder Hammer can elect to use his Rending attacks instead. Logan Grimnar's special rule for the Axe of Morkai seems to tell you when to do it for him.

Teetering back... For me it hinges entirely on when you declare the attack. If it happens after you apply modifiers than DeathReaper is right. If its before, then everyone else seems to be right (and my original position).

Sorry if this seems like circles. Maybe I'm just slow and needed the extra clarifications...

A fair point, I see where you're coming from.

For me declaring how you attack needs to come just before the "Number of Attacks" step. Because the choice of attacks effects the number of attacks.
For example:
A model with One attack armed with a powerfist, a powersword and a pistol.
If you choose the powersword attack you get a bonus attack for having a pistol for a total of 2 attacks.
Powerfist Attack you get no bonus (powerfist is specialist) so total of 1.

If you declare attack type after how do you calculate "Number of Attacks"?
Do you say "I have a potential 2 attacks, but haven't decided yet"?

The "number of attacks" rule fits nicely into the sequence just where needed. Halve the attacks just before rolling to hit? No problem, that's exactly where the "number of attacks" rule is.

RAW, Smash Attack tells you that you half the stat when you start to roll to hit, as such that you have already calculated the number of attacks that your model will have before doing so, your new total is halved. I really dont see how asking other questions that are irrelevant to *this* topic at hand have any bearing.I mean, I really dont understand why a space marine with a power fist has any bearing on this topic at all. :|

Xzerios wrote:RAW, Smash Attack tells you that you half the stat when you start to roll to hit, as such that you have already calculated the number of attacks that your model will have before doing so, your new total is halved. I really dont see how asking other questions that are irrelevant to *this* topic at hand have any bearing.I mean, I really dont understand why a space marine with a power fist has any bearing on this topic at all. :|

Simple. If a marine with a PF is hit by Enfeeble, what strength does he hit at? It is manifested in the psykers movement phase, so is in effect looong before the marines strength is doubled, so the people arguing that you half allthe attacks must also argue that the marine will hit at strength 6. However I believe most will actually argue that it is strength 7, since the order of operations says multiply then deduct modifiers.

If it works that way for a marine, it should work the same way for a Tervigon and its attacks. Halve the attacks (ie multiply by 0.5) then add all the bonuses you have from warp time, etc on top.

The problem arises in that people are claiming that since you activate warp time in the movement phase, it then adds to your attacks by modifying your attack characteristic and subsequently ceases to be a modifier as its job is done. Essentially, they say that the order of operations we are told to use, only EVER comes into play if modifiers are applied at the exact same moment.

For the purposes of attacking the Power fist marines's Strength is always doubled.

That and the Powerfist marine does not have an Advanced rule that contradicts the Multiple Modifiers section.

DeathReaper wrote:For the purposes of attacking the Power fist marines's Strength is always doubled.

... Yeah, I get how a power fist works.

So you would say that a marine with Furious Charge would hit at strength 10? And Enfeebled would hit at strength 6?

Well, Ill fancy you an answer good sir.

Enfeeble is Maldictive power cast during the movement phase. Since it is a -1 modifier (if the power manifests and Deny the Witch is unsuccessful) You then follow the rules for multiple modifiers. Since multiple modifiers are multiplied, added, and then subtracted (in this case, as its relevance comes up during the assault phase) You then follow the rules for that phase. It tells us to modify before we roll to hit. Since your SM has a power fist, you then have to multiply his strength, add to his strength, and then subtract from his strength. This gives you the models new strength total before you move into CC where it is relevant. From there you would roll to hit, ect.

Again, that has no bearing here as there are different factors at play here. Most importantly, the fact that Smash Attack is being used. Since its (the rules outlined by Smash Attack) states that you half the models attack attribute when you move to the roll to hit step of the fight sub-phase, You then half your attack attribute, which was conveniently totaled up for us in the previous step.

Xzerios wrote:Well, Ill fancy you an answer good sir.

Enfeeble is Maldictive power cast during the movement phase. Since it is a -1 modifier (if the power manifests and Deny the Witch is unsuccessful) You then follow the rules for multiple modifiers. Since multiple modifiers are multiplied, added, and then subtracted (in this case, as its relevance comes up during the assault phase) You then follow the rules for that phase. It tells us to modify before we roll to hit. Since your SM has a power fist, you then have to multiply his strength, add to his strength, and then subtract from his strength. This gives you the models new strength total before you move into CC where it is relevant. From there you would roll to hit, ect.

Again, that has no bearing here as there are different factors at play here. Most importantly, the fact that Smash Attack is being used. Since its (the rules outlined by Smash Attack) states that you half the models attack attribute when you move to the roll to hit step of the fight sub-phase, You then half your attack attribute, which was conveniently totaled up for us in the previous step.

The factors are exactly the same, the only difference is the characteristic in question, and the fact that it says to halve instead of double the characteristic. If you think that the marine should hit at strength 6, then you're logically consistent, but I suspect you'd be hard pressed to find people who agree with it. If you think it's strength 7, then you're applying the rules inconsistently.

Also, for clarities sake, a direct answer please. What is the number for the strength of the marines hit?

Strength 4 marine with a PF? Seven.
Strength 5 marine with a PF? Nine.

Now I ask you this question. When did the rules for a Power Fist become relevant to the rules for Smash Attacks?

Xzerios wrote:Strength 4 marine with a PF? Seven.
Strength 5 marine with a PF? Nine.

Now I ask you this question. When did the rules for a Power Fist become relevant to the rules for Smash Attacks?

Can you not see how you're applying the rules selectively?

If a marine loses one point of strength in the movement phase, you are then claiming that when he goes to swing, his base strength of 4 is doubled, then 1 point is deducted for Enfeeble, in accordance with the order of operations.

A Tervigon gains (potentially) 3 attacks in the movement phase due to warp time. It then goes to Smash, and you claim that it must halve its total attacks, NOT in accordance with the order of operations.

Why the difference?

nohman wrote:Can you not see how you're applying the rules selectively?

If a marine loses one point of strength in the movement phase, you are then claiming that when he goes to swing, his base strength of 4 is doubled, then 1 point is deducted for Enfeeble, in accordance with the order of operations.

A Tervigon gains (potentially) 3 attacks in the movement phase due to warp time. It then goes to Smash, and you claim that it must halve its total attacks, NOT in accordance with the order of operations.

Why the difference?

I see what your saying Nohman. I must ask though;
When are you told to subtract the point of strength, per the rules for Enfeeble?
When are you told to half the attack attribute, per the rules for Smash Attacks?
Again, these are two different rules. Both worded differently. Your comparing your peaches to my apples. The outcome will always be different as the way the two rules are written are different.

Neither power tell you when to apply a modifier Xzerios, they are just set. You are taking the "roll to hit as normal" as a timing effect. Your saying because its before "but halve the attack char.", then that must be when you apply it. The rule does not say "WHEN you roll to Hit". That would justify your argument and give a valid argument to a "new advanced timing rule". But it doesnt. Your trying to separate the one sentence into two parts and make a new rule out of it.

As an advanced rule Smash tells us to what do to.
When does Smash happen? During Close combat attacks.
How do you do a Smash attack? Roll as a normal CC attack, but halve the attack Characteristic.
Now that you know what to do, apply it.

"Models make their attacks when their I step is reached"
"Each models makes attacks based on its Attack Characteristic +bonus attacks"
Calculate the number of attacks.
Base 1.5, (because it is halved by Smash), rounds up to 2,
Add bonus attacks.. charge, two weapon, other... etc..
Roll to hit
Roll to wound... etc..

The same rules governing how you figure the Power Fist apply here. And Power Fists do not say when to apply their Str bonus. There is nothing to change how the modifier rule works other than someone saying that you halve the attacks AFTER you have rolled to hit already. (which is impossible)

Again, you fail to read that Smash's rule tells you when to half. As you roll to hit. You have already established the number of attacks you will have prior to rolling to hit and thats per the rules for the fight sub-phase.
I understand you want the rule to multiply your attacks by .5, which would put it the same step where you establish number of attacks. However, thats not how the Smash rule was written. As the reason it was written this way is to allow a MC to choose whether or not to make a few Smash Attacks, or many standard attacks.

Again, Smash doesn't create a new timing with that half of a sentence everyone is trying to focus on. Nothing there breaks the modifier basic rule. However, I can see this has reached an impasse and will just have to wait for GW. Im sure they will hit the Tervigon with the nerf bat, as its the only monster this argument even really applies to.

nohman wrote:

Xzerios wrote:Strength 4 marine with a PF? Seven.
Strength 5 marine with a PF? Nine.

Now I ask you this question. When did the rules for a Power Fist become relevant to the rules for Smash Attacks?

Can you not see how you're applying the rules selectively?

If a marine loses one point of strength in the movement phase, you are then claiming that when he goes to swing, his base strength of 4 is doubled, then 1 point is deducted for Enfeeble, in accordance with the order of operations.

A Tervigon gains (potentially) 3 attacks in the movement phase due to warp time. It then goes to Smash, and you claim that it must halve its total attacks, NOT in accordance with the order of operations.

Why the difference?

Seven would be the right answer, it simply follows the rules for Multiple Mofifiers. A new modifier is added, you just recalculate.
There's no reason I can see that Smash should be treated any differently.

Let it be known that I would be agreeing with you had the rule for Smash Attack been written as "a x.5 modifier" within the rule (and removed the section pertaining to the roll to hit). As then it would fall very cleanly into the multiple modifiers rule. No fuss or muss on that.
For now, those folks will simply have to ask their opponent their take on the rules for Smash. It will most undoubtedly fall to dice roll for the casual games. Agree to disagree at this junction seems perfectly plausible. With that, good chat. :3

Xzerios wrote:Again, you fail to read that Smash's rule tells you when to half. As you roll to hit. You have already established the number of attacks you will have prior to rolling to hit and thats per the rules for the fight sub-phase.
I understand you want the rule to multiply your attacks by .5, which would put it the same step where you establish number of attacks. However, thats not how the Smash rule was written. As the reason it was written this way is to allow a MC to choose whether or not to make a few Smash Attacks, or many standard attacks.

It does *not* create a new timing for the modifier. It does not say you halve AS you roll to hit, just you roll to hit normally, halving the attacks. As halving IS a multiiplier, by definition, you follow Multiple Modifiers.

Consistency

DR - there is no advanced rule creating a new exception here. Halving IS a multiplier.

First, let me apologize for bouncing out of the discussion. After I got home from work I was busy as a bee. Back to the matter at hand...

The timing is definitely the issue. The confusion is coming from people wanting to create a new timing to modify your attacks as you roll To Hit.
But the key is that you finalize how many attacks you get (by using the multiple modifier rules) at the time of rolling to hit. Technically directly before, but think of it this way: Everything before the dice hit the table is a big pool where you can throw modifiers in. As you pick up the dice to roll To Hit, you have to use the Multiple Modifier rules to see how many dice you roll. Then you roll them. There is no time between modifiers and rolling for you to add a step in to halve the dice.

In our minds we are separating the two acts like there is definitive phases where one can't interact with the other. Where one phase you count your attacks. Then that is locked in and move to the next phase, and roll the die. But you can't halve the attacks while rolling, because then you are picking up half of the dice while they bounce around. We can all agree that isn't the case. So instead it happens right before the dice leave your hand. Which is the same moment that you are using the Multiple Modifier rules.

I hope this gives a little clarity to the issue from my point of view. Otherwise, I'll see you at the roll off.

Xzerios wrote:Again, you fail to read that Smash's rule tells you when to half. As you roll to hit. You have already established the number of attacks you will have prior to rolling to hit and thats per the rules for the fight sub-phase.

Fragile wrote:Again, Smash doesn't create a new timing with that half of a sentence everyone is trying to focus on. Nothing there breaks the modifier basic rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:It does *not* create a new timing for the modifier. It does not say you halve AS you roll to hit, just you roll to hit normally, halving the attacks. As halving IS a multiiplier, by definition, you follow Multiple Modifiers.

racta wrote:The timing is definitely the issue. The confusion is coming from people wanting to create a new timing to modify your attacks as you roll To Hit.
But the key is that you finalize how many attacks you get (by using the multiple modifier rules) at the time of rolling to hit. Technically directly before, but think of it this way: Everything before the dice hit the table is a big pool where you can throw modifiers in. As you pick up the dice to roll To Hit, you have to use the Multiple Modifier rules to see how many dice you roll. Then you roll them. There is no time between modifiers and rolling for you to add a step in to halve the dice.

And that's all she wrote...

Re-reading the Smash Attack rule after stepping back from the issue yesterday, it doesn't look like it tells you when to do anything. It just says you still have to roll to hit but you get half the number of attacks.

I wish there was a more definite answer on when you apply modifiers for characteristics. Is it just whenever you are called upon to use the characteristic? I'd have to assume so, just so the rules don't break down.

As it stands though I have to flip flop back to my original position. I can't accept any arguments that try to argue that division is different than multiplication so breaks the rules and the only other possibility for things to work the way DeathReaper suggests is if timing was important. I can't find anything in the BRB that says when you apply modifiers. With only two reasonable possibilities (apply them when you get them or apply them when called upon to use the characteristic) I'd have to side with the majority.