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Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





It's so.......similar to the last one. No new Special Characters, the current special characters are almost exactly the same, the new units are okay. But two new plastic kits, still no cult units other than the Marines, the marks all do basically the same thing, the cult units have the same options, nothing creative at all with the standard vehicles, one of the "new" units is just a different version of an obliterators, the other a different raptor.

I am pretty disappointed.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440294a&prodId=prod520001a

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Here be Dragons!

   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Sarasota, FL

 Griever wrote:
It's so.......similar to the last one. No new Special Characters, the current special characters are almost exactly the same, the new units are okay. But two new plastic kits, still no cult units other than the Marines, the marks all do basically the same thing, the cult units have the same options, nothing creative at all with the standard vehicles, one of the "new" units is just a different version of an obliterators, the other a different raptor.

I am pretty disappointed.


Obviously to sell Heldrakes and Fiendamabobs.

7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons
5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I think people's expectations were a codex which would be of similar level to Grey knights and Necrons, whilst I can understand this could be disappointing, they are doing the same thing they did with fantasy, the new edition books set a new balance level. If you look at all the 8th edition new fantasy books they are all very good and balance well against each other, im sure this will be the trend with the future 40k book trends.

The new book is not designed to be a overpowerd book, it is designed to have great level of balance and flexibility with which to set the balance tone for the rest of the books to come and I think it succeeds.
   
Made in gb
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





London

I agree. Armies usually have a defining mechanic or army wide special rules. I sort of thought Chaos would get assault-rhinos or more force org switching options.

Chaos Space Marines, The Skull Guard: 4500pts
Fists of Dorn: 1500pts
Wood Elves, Awakened of Spring: 3425pts  
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major






In the dark recesses of your mind...

I don't think the OP is remarking about the perceived competitive level of the new codex so much as the lack of creativity in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/06 22:04:17


A Town Called Malus wrote:Just because it is called "The Executioners Axe" doesn't mean it is an axe...


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Made in au
Frenzied Juggernaut





Australia

Shinzra wrote:
I think people's expectations were a codex which would be of similar level to Grey knights and Necrons, whilst I can understand this could be disappointing, they are doing the same thing they did with fantasy, the new edition books set a new balance level. If you look at all the 8th edition new fantasy books they are all very good and balance well against each other, im sure this will be the trend with the future 40k book trends.

The new book is not designed to be a overpowerd book, it is designed to have great level of balance and flexibility with which to set the balance tone for the rest of the books to come and I think it succeeds.



Balance and flexibility is good and all, but the chaos book is very bland.

I think the last codex that came out that was like wow awesome, while still being well balanced and flexible was the DE codex.

Dark Eldar- 1500pts Completed
Grey Knights- 1500pts 1 Guy done
Chaos Daemons- Approx 5000pts
Slaanesh Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Khorne Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Death Korps of Krieg- Plans being formulated.
---------------------------------------------------
High Elves- Approx 2000pts
Vampire Counts- Raising the dead once more 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Many would argue that dark eldar when it first came out were very balanced, however with 6th edition they are now under par. You have to remember this is the 1st 6th edition book, ( necrons was with 6th in mind but still a 5th book), it WILL set the tone for all future books and I will be expecting future books to have a similar level of power.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Juggernaut





Australia

Its not really the power level as a few people have said, its just that its a bland book, it feels like its missing something.

Dark Eldar- 1500pts Completed
Grey Knights- 1500pts 1 Guy done
Chaos Daemons- Approx 5000pts
Slaanesh Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Khorne Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Death Korps of Krieg- Plans being formulated.
---------------------------------------------------
High Elves- Approx 2000pts
Vampire Counts- Raising the dead once more 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

Dark Eldar and Balanced?

Does not compute.

Dark Eldar is the very definition of you can have any colour you want, as long as it's Venom-Spam.

   
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Frenzied Juggernaut





Australia

Venom spam might be a common netlist but out of several comps Iv been to that had DE players I only saw one person use venom spam, and they did not place well at all.




Dark Eldar- 1500pts Completed
Grey Knights- 1500pts 1 Guy done
Chaos Daemons- Approx 5000pts
Slaanesh Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Khorne Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Death Korps of Krieg- Plans being formulated.
---------------------------------------------------
High Elves- Approx 2000pts
Vampire Counts- Raising the dead once more 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Xeriapt wrote:
Shinzra wrote:
I think people's expectations were a codex which would be of similar level to Grey knights and Necrons, whilst I can understand this could be disappointing, they are doing the same thing they did with fantasy, the new edition books set a new balance level. If you look at all the 8th edition new fantasy books they are all very good and balance well against each other, im sure this will be the trend with the future 40k book trends.

The new book is not designed to be a overpowerd book, it is designed to have great level of balance and flexibility with which to set the balance tone for the rest of the books to come and I think it succeeds.



Balance and flexibility is good and all, but the chaos book is very bland.

I think the last codex that came out that was like wow awesome, while still being well balanced and flexible was the DE codex.


Many of us do feel like it was wasted creativity, so much that could've been done for marks for things that don't benefit from them (Why would you use Slaanesh for obliterators?) Marks for Vehicles (Even Forgeworld figured this out!) Better options for the DP (Oh hey when I assault through cover it's at I1, thanks, and don't benefit from marks), increased wargear options for characters (Lord being able to take mechatendrils for example, this would've gone a long way to placating fans by actually adding wargear) More daemon weapons (WHY IS THERE NOW JUST TWO WITH ONE MARK SPECIFIC, THIS IS )
   
Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

I was hoping for some rules for legion like iron warriors, alpha legion etc, but nothing for this side. That's my biggest disapointement for the codex.

 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





As apparently some people didn't get it, this has nothing to do with how "competitive" I think this codex is. It's just boring.

It makes me miss Matt Ward :(
   
Made in ca
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster




Fredericton, NB

I believe that word out of games day explicitly stated that the goal of this codex was to make what the 4th ed book should have been. Essentially making the Chaos Marine codex that they wanted to for all this time, but never could.

Its the wave of the future, if every new book comes out as (apparently) balanced, optionful, and diverse as this then we are in for a good time.

Know thy self. Everything follows this.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Sacrifice to Khorne




The thing is that with a lot of the codecs coming out of late being complete remakes, I think people thought they would completely revamp this one. It is more of an update and re balancing rather than a complete revamp. I think some people's expectations were just to high and expected a revamp after seeing the newest codecs.
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





 Lightcavalier wrote:
I believe that word out of games day explicitly stated that the goal of this codex was to make what the 4th ed book should have been. Essentially making the Chaos Marine codex that they wanted to for all this time, but never could.

Its the wave of the future, if every new book comes out as (apparently) balanced, optionful, and diverse as this then we are in for a good time.


How so? It's exactly the same!
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

Shinzra wrote:
I think people's expectations were a codex which would be of similar level to Grey knights and Necrons, whilst I can understand this could be disappointing, they are doing the same thing they did with fantasy, the new edition books set a new balance level. If you look at all the 8th edition new fantasy books they are all very good and balance well against each other, im sure this will be the trend with the future 40k book trends.

The new book is not designed to be a overpowerd book, it is designed to have great level of balance and flexibility with which to set the balance tone for the rest of the books to come and I think it succeeds.


So all the new 6th ed codex's will be at this lvl?
All the overpowered codex's will remain like that?
Till they get a new codex. And how long will that take.

I call this the missed opportunity codex.

Thousand sons put on hold

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/06 23:24:44




Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Beaver Dam, WI

 loki old fart wrote:
Shinzra wrote:
I think people's expectations were a codex which would be of similar level to Grey knights and Necrons, whilst I can understand this could be disappointing, they are doing the same thing they did with fantasy, the new edition books set a new balance level. If you look at all the 8th edition new fantasy books they are all very good and balance well against each other, im sure this will be the trend with the future 40k book trends.

The new book is not designed to be a overpowerd book, it is designed to have great level of balance and flexibility with which to set the balance tone for the rest of the books to come and I think it succeeds.


So all the new 6th ed codex's will be at this lvl?
All the overpowered codex's will remain like that?
Till they get a new codex. And how long will that take.


Here is looking forward to a new GK codex that makes you chose 1 grenade to throw into combat not santa claus with 6 "gifts" for every combat.

2000
2000
WIP
3000
8000 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Lightcavalier wrote:

Its the wave of the future, if every new book comes out as (apparently) balanced, optionful, and diverse as this then we are in for a good time.

I'll second this. I'd be more than happy if my new 'dex had some units reduced in price, some increased, a few new and a sprinkling of USRs.

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Testify wrote:
 Lightcavalier wrote:

Its the wave of the future, if every new book comes out as (apparently) balanced, optionful, and diverse as this then we are in for a good time.

I'll second this. I'd be more than happy if my new 'dex had some units reduced in price, some increased, a few new and a sprinkling of USRs.


Only if the average person can afford playing this game, otherwise more defections to other game companies or quitting the hobby all together.

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Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?

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Minnesota, land of 10,000 Lakes and 10,000,000,000 Mosquitos

 Griever wrote:
 Lightcavalier wrote:
I believe that word out of games day explicitly stated that the goal of this codex was to make what the 4th ed book should have been. Essentially making the Chaos Marine codex that they wanted to for all this time, but never could.

Its the wave of the future, if every new book comes out as (apparently) balanced, optionful, and diverse as this then we are in for a good time.


How so? It's exactly the same!


I dunno, honestly I'd like to see every codex like this. Maybe add a few more cool units, but keep the core of it the same. Making a new codex doesn't mean it needs to drastically change what the army did in the previous edition, it needs to bring it in line with modern standards. Honestly, I think the codices that did get a major revamp deserved it, but it seems to me that Chaos is and was pretty well-fleshed out. In comparison, look at some of those older codices. Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Necrons. I admit I don't know the older codices that well, but unless I'm mistaken, Dark Eldar had all of 2 special characters to choose from, and I think one or two HQ choices. Now they've got a decent handful of both. Same with Grey Knights - I believe it was a Brother-Captain or a Grandmaster, and that was it; now they have Librarians, some kind of lesser HQ, and a decent chunk of special characters to choose from.

Compare that to Chaos Space Marines, both 4e and 6e. 4e already had a ton of special characters to pick from (all of which seem to have made it into the new codex - need I remind you of the lovingly titled Kruellagh the Vile from Dark Eldar?) and a few options for HQs, plus units to fill each and every slot. The 6e codex didn't need to do much...it just had to bring it up to the normal 6e point levels and gear loadouts, push it a little bit further away from Space Marines, and give it some shiny new toys to play with.

Plus, y'know, I have to ask this...would you rather Chaos stuck with the 4th edition book? I mean, if the new one is truly pointless since it didn't add any major players or drastically change the army, then shouldn't the old one be just fine?


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Made in ca
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator





Calgary, Alberta

Another thing to consider is that both Grey Knights and Necrons were working with much, much older books. They needed to add a bunch of things and overhaul the book because they were 3e books and they must have known 6e was on the horizon. I mean, there weren't even all that many units period. The last Chaos book was half as long ago and had quite a glut of units. From a pure design perspective, if you're going to adding new units on top, you simply don't have enough space inside the book to shift any unit from its existing role all that much.

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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Well, I know this is not really allowed to be asked, but are there cultists in the Codex?

Seeing a squad of veterens swoop in in a Vendetta, secure the area, deliver that math assignment, and extract within 2 minutes would be freaking sweet.

 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Yes, they're in the codex.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






This book makes me sad,not just from a competitive point but also from a flexibility point as well as others have said. Loyalists get all bike, assault, and terminator armies, why cant we. People say we have a lot of wargear options but loyalist still get about the same, and in other areas better (TH/SS & SB). We don't even have drop pods or rhino or land raider variants. For people who don't follow the Codex Artes we are way more constricted than the loyalist.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/07 08:46:15


Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007

First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.

Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.

Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.

Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me. 
   
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Horrific Horror




Melbourne, Australia

I think the idea with this new codex was that you could build alot of different flavour chaos armies that are all equally usabvle.

it feels like more of a troops army now too and i lik ethat with vechicles as support.

Fluf wise i dunno, i skipped all that because i have read it all before and i was really only interested in the units designs and list building to see what i could do with my old chaos stuff and what new stuff would make a good mix.

Just give the dex some time to be played and tinkered with, i'm sure you'll find interesting combinations after some play time

Rogue Traders (Chaos Space Marines) 500pts
Warp Legions (Daemons) 2000pts 
   
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HIDING IN THE METAL BAWKSES!!

 Xeriapt wrote:
Shinzra wrote:
I think people's expectations were a codex which would be of similar level to Grey knights and Necrons, whilst I can understand this could be disappointing, they are doing the same thing they did with fantasy, the new edition books set a new balance level. If you look at all the 8th edition new fantasy books they are all very good and balance well against each other, im sure this will be the trend with the future 40k book trends.

The new book is not designed to be a overpowerd book, it is designed to have great level of balance and flexibility with which to set the balance tone for the rest of the books to come and I think it succeeds.



Balance and flexibility is good and all, but the chaos book is very bland.

I think the last codex that came out that was like wow awesome, while still being well balanced and flexible was the DE codex.

You mean the 3.5 or the 4th ed one? Cause the 4th ed one was just spiky Dark Angels. (Or "When Marine gone wild" whatever you call it)

 
   
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Napoleonics Obsesser






Chaos Codex, how thick are you?
___ Pages sir
I didn't know they stacked gak that high!

It still has the same problems, and the same general dynamic. I haven't had a personal look yet, but the new raptors really don't fix the problem, which is a massive dependence on HS options. They literally did nothing but give CSM some big, fat Ice around their necks, and some gold rings for their fingers.


If only ZUN!bar were here... 
   
 
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