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So I haven't really seen anyone using Drazhar in their de lists, even with the boost he got from 6th. Has anyone tried him out yet?

Too much of a point sink for most games I'm afraid.

Ya thats true, but that didnt stop people from using vect in 5th, and with the new rule changes I would think drazhar would be worth it

he costs too much and is a melee character. doing melee isnt where it is at anymore.

next is the lack of a ++ save. Sure he can shrug off the first powerfist but what about two or three?

next there is the wording on his darting strike, he can get challenged and then he cant dance around like he use to

Fun and semi-competive, I've had good experiences with him, which involve him soloing CSM terminators and GKSS, but nothing fantastic.

Vect was a CC legend in 5th, and he gave army-wide boost with his initiative seize bonus, so you can hardly compare the two.

Also he's a bit restrictive with who he can go with. And now that we have huskblade as AP2, I really can't see why I would go for him instead of PGL huskblade archon...

Good points from all of you guys! I should have a chance to try him out in the next few weeks, I'll probably run him with a small squad of incubi in a venom, savy?

The biggest problem for me is that he can only join Incubi. Taking a very strong AP 2 unit and giving them a very strong AP 2 HQ is not my cup of tea. I'd rather spread out the pain.

The biggest problem for all of the DE special HQs is the unit they have to go with and the transport really. The characters in isolation are decent, but in practice not as great.

Spending 150-200 points on one character that has to ride in an AV 10 open topped vehicle is not ideal. Couple that with the fact that they don't have great units to run with (Wracks are okay I guess for this but Drazhar can't join them), and it makes none of them that special minus the Baron.

For Drazhar specifically, it's much of the same. A Venom is a 2HP AV 10 open topped vehicle. It's very possible it explodes before Drazhar even gets close, and with no invuln save either he will die, or his squad of T3 3+ Incubi will die. Then there's the whole overwatch and random charge distance for this already vulnerable squad. If you can get them into CC, they're great with the high initiative and stats. The problem is getting them into CC reliably for the amount of points they eat up. Drazhar in a venom with 4 Incubi is nearly 400 points. Just way too much for what it does..

It's decent enough for friendly games, but it's not that competitive.

Tinsil wrote:
The biggest problem for all of the DE special HQs is the unit they have to go with and the transport really. The characters in isolation are decent, but in practice not as great.

Spending 150-200 points on one character that has to ride in an AV 10 open topped vehicle is not ideal. Couple that with the fact that they don't have great units to run with (Wracks are okay I guess for this but Drazhar can't join them), and it makes none of them that special minus the Baron.

For Drazhar specifically, it's much of the same. A Venom is a 2HP AV 10 open topped vehicle. It's very possible it explodes before Drazhar even gets close, and with no invuln save either he will die, or his squad of T3 3+ Incubi will die. Then there's the whole overwatch and random charge distance for this already vulnerable squad. If you can get them into CC, they're great with the high initiative and stats. The problem is getting them into CC reliably for the amount of points they eat up. Drazhar in a venom with 4 Incubi is nearly 400 points. Just way too much for what it does..

It's decent enough for friendly games, but it's not that competitive.

I've found the key is to fully commit to the idea. Bring Draz with 8 guys and a Haemie. Now they can 3+ 5+ their way into combat. Throw sails on the raider. Turbo boost it 30+2D6" deep into your opponents face. Bringing the unit small is just begging for it to get shot up and be disappointing. Bring the unit big enough and Draz and the Klaivex will stay alive long enough to start rolling from assault to assault. Also, don't skimp on the Klaivex. Demies give him huge versatility and the Bloodstone will help a lot if you have to assault a real nasty unit like GH or Purifiers in cover.

Fleet makes random charge distances amazing. Not sure why people don't understand that yet.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Fleet makes random charge distances amazing. Not sure why people don't understand that yet.

Could be that some of us are still mourning for the loss of that 2" and the gain of all the randoms, not only is our maximum charge distance shorter than in 5th ed, the range between min-max is also wider. I hope there is no argument on this, as it has been covered a thousand times during the transition...

Or just that some of us just aren't big fans of randoms, while fleet does improve our chance to get the distance we want, the chance of the charge failing is still there, there has already been cases where DE players have failed 5" charges for the entire game(unlucky, yes, but that possibility is there), and for our fragile units, that risk is a lot higher than say, for marines, to disembark a vehicle, leaving the unit at 6"(formerly safe distance) then failing a charge, eating a round of overwatch AND to leave that unit in the open for an entire shooting phase of our enemy, need I remind you why we even stuff everything on the paper boats in the 1st place? Of course, compared with fleet-less army, we're still better off, but personally, I really can't view fleet's changes as a buff for us especially.

Random charge is okay, but if you're playing to win consistently and throwing that many points into a unit, it's going to turn out bad sometimes. This is a whole different discussion though.

The problem with bringing Draz with 8 Incubi is assuming they make it to start, its possible the unit completely kills the unit its attacking and leaves you open on your opponents turn. The unit also has no PGL as a side note too. I think if you want to go for it, you can. You're going to be pushing 600 points with 8 of them, Draz, a haem, and a raider. Still don't think it's optimal, but I'd be tempted to go 5-6 or so rather than 8. Agree the Haemie is a decent idea for 50 points base. It's just too many points in my opinion. Sure the unit has great killing potential and might wipe out a couple marine squads, but there's also a large number of things that can go wrong for them.

If you want a CC "deathstar" I'd be more tempted to go for Grotesques + Urien. Urien himself is a strong HQ, and his 4 grotesques would be S6, T5, 3W, FNP/FC. With a raider comes to low 400 points. It's almost as deadly and much more survivable imo.. Urien's gear and stats also make him wicked in challenges.

Tinsil wrote:
Random charge is okay, but if you're playing to win consistently and throwing that many points into a unit, it's going to turn out bad sometimes. This is a whole different discussion though.

The problem with bringing Draz with 8 Incubi is assuming they make it to start, its possible the unit completely kills the unit its attacking and leaves you open on your opponents turn. The unit also has no PGL as a side note too. I think if you want to go for it, you can. You're going to be pushing 600 points with 8 of them, Draz, a haem, and a raider. Still don't think it's optimal, but I'd be tempted to go 5-6 or so rather than 8. Agree the Haemie is a decent idea for 50 points base. It's just too many points in my opinion. Sure the unit has great killing potential and might wipe out a couple marine squads, but there's also a large number of things that can go wrong for them.

If you want a CC "deathstar" I'd be more tempted to go for Grotesques + Urien. Urien himself is a strong HQ, and his 4 grotesques would be S6, T5, 3W, FNP/FC. With a raider comes to low 400 points. It's almost as deadly and much more survivable imo.. Urien's gear and stats also make him wicked in challenges.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Grotstar as well, but the Incubi are a little more deadly and much faster. They can easily make their way from one side of the enemy deployment zone to the other over the course of 3 or 4 turns. The extra bodies are their (along with the Haemie) to eat bullets the first turn, so its rare for you to have much as far as over kill once you get into the assault phases. Plus, the great thing about this unit is you really have two killer assault units in one, and you can, and probably should against most units, split them up when the opportunity for two assaults arises.

Oh, and the PGL is really not needed at all for a unit like this. The Bloodstone template is more then enough to knock down anything with CC potential a peg or two before assaulting, and the 3+ w/FNP will me you're unlikely to take more then a casualty or two at the most , nothing that will keep you from winning the CC quite handily. People way over rate the lack of assault grenades on Incis. I mean, Kabalite Warriors have I5, you don't see Space Marine players being afraid to assault them do you?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Could be that some of us are still mourning for the loss of that 2" and the gain of all the randoms, not only is our maximum charge distance shorter than in 5th ed, the range between min-max is also wider. I hope there is no argument on this, as it has been covered a thousand times during the transition...

Or just that some of us just aren't big fans of randoms, while fleet does improve our chance to get the distance we want, the chance of the charge failing is still there, there has already been cases where DE players have failed 5" charges for the entire game(unlucky, yes, but that possibility is there), and for our fragile units, that risk is a lot higher than say, for marines, to disembark a vehicle, leaving the unit at 6"(formerly safe distance) then failing a charge, eating a round of overwatch AND to leave that unit in the open for an entire shooting phase of our enemy, need I remind you why we even stuff everything on the paper boats in the 1st place? Of course, compared with fleet-less army, we're still better off, but personally, I really can't view fleet's changes as a buff for us especially.

Yes, but you gained a 30+2d6+ Turbo Boost (so 6 more inches then 5th), with an assault vehicle that is amazing. Deploy first turn sufficiently out of range of most guns on a flank then zoom zoom into your opponents face. Hide behind the 4++ (on the raider) and 3+/FNP (on the incis) to eat bullets and then go ape gak next turn. The problem has more to do with people not adjusting to the new paradigm then it has to do with a lack of viability. If you have foot based assault units in transports and you're not turbo boosting first turn you're playing 6th edition wrong.

Yeah I agree the Incubi are more deadly and a bit quicker, but it's also more points, and they're much more fragile. Grotesques can also easily punch through any tank if needed.

I don't really think either one is a great unit. They're quite viable for friendly play though. Just wouldn't run either in a real competitive tournament list.

You've made some good points as well, except for the bloodstone because it's weak.

Tinsil wrote:
Yeah I agree the Incubi are more deadly and a bit quicker, but it's also more points, and they're much more fragile. Grotesques can also easily punch through any tank if needed.

I don't really think either one is a great unit. They're quite viable for friendly play though. Just wouldn't run either in a real competitive tournament list.

You've made some good points as well, except for the bloodstone because it's weak.

Heh, AP 3 template man, whats not to love? I know it's only strength 3, but it still has better wound potential against anything MeQ then a heavy flamer. Denying Marine armor is a pretty massive advantage for a template, and being a template it helps you most when you need it most (ie, assaulting into cover).

I honestly think things like the Grotstar and the Incubbi(star?) are the competitive future for the Dark Eldar. People are clinging to their 5th edition ways (and armies) and coming away frustrated that they didn't translate to 6th. I think MSU is a very poor way to play the space drow in 6th, as units need to be big enough to have staying power, and the pain token mechanic has always favored bigger units, particularly with assault units.

The problem is they're so expensive and there's a good amount that can go wrong. Another issue is redundancy is a great thing, and your troop assault option (Wyches) are a bit weak for how much a squad costs, for several reasons.. and without using them you just aren't putting enough into the opponent's face imo.

The nerf to charge distance really does hurt too, particularly for Wyches who have a 6+ save. Where before it was 12" transport, 2" disembark, d6 run, and 6" assault (20" + d6)... now it's (12" + 2d6 with rerolls). The math works out that the average charge range is now slightly shorter, but there's a lot more variance in the charge range in 6th. And as you well know, our assault units not making it into combat is very ugly. Not to talk what-ifs or complain about nerfs, but that variance will always be there for assaulting, so it has to be kept in mind.

Tinsil wrote:
The problem is they're so expensive and there's a good amount that can go wrong. Another issue is redundancy is a great thing, and your troop assault option (Wyches) are a bit weak for how much a squad costs, for several reasons.. and without using them you just aren't putting enough into the opponent's face imo.

The nerf to charge distance really does hurt too, particularly for Wyches who have a 6+ save. Where before it was 12" transport, 2" disembark, d6 run, and 6" assault (20" + d6)... now it's (12" + 2d6 with rerolls). The math works out that the average charge range is now slightly shorter, but there's a lot more variance in the charge range in 6th. And as you well know, our assault units not making it into combat is very ugly. Not to talk what-ifs or complain about nerfs, but that variance will always be there for assaulting, so it has to be kept in mind.

All good points, and Wyches are certainly a challenge of their own to use correctly in 6th. The two things we got in exchange of our nerfed Raider/Venom assault range that I don't think gets mentioned enough is the greater range when we are not assaulting (6" more turbo boost) and the greater range when the boots are on the ground (re-roll to run). Of course, the old fleet and the new fleet works out about the same, however we can shoot and get the benefit of fleet (while assaulting) now, another advantage people tend to overlook. Our girls have decent little pistols, we really aught to be using them more often.

The problem with drazhar is that he is huge points for just a good melee character, not the best, but good, but doesn't influence the rest of the army in any way, an archon is much cheaper and has an invulnerable save

 lord_bobbington wrote:
The problem with drazhar is that he is huge points for just a good melee character, not the best, but good, but doesn't influence the rest of the army in any way, an archon is much cheaper and has an invulnerable save

Well, he makes one unit of Incubbi fearless, so that's not entirely true. Also, he has a permanent 2+ save and eternal warrior, that tends to go a lot further then the Shadow Field, especially because most things in the game that can break a 2+ save are dead by the time they even think about striking him.

In the modern day of challenges, with murderous assault and onslaught, their is a very short list of ICs that can even hope to touch Drazhar in CC. I guess some MC's might be a challenge (no pun intended!), but I can't think of too many IC's that can handle him. Mephy would get humiliated. Anyway, I think you're selling him a bit short by saying he's "just a good melee character," as he's on the short list of the best melee characters in the game.

At the end of the day, if you're going to play Dark Eldar, then you need to play Dark Eldar.
It generally means commiting everything you've got to overwhelming, precision strikes.

Our vehicles and troops have armour that's paperthin, this is so we can have speed. Yes the transport will die, but you've sent it down the enemies throat so the units inside can rip out their heart!
It's an army that rewards focused agression and punishes overly defensive / slow tactics, remember that and play to the armies strengths.

Just to point out, unless you're leaving the Haem in the Raider, the unit loses its fleet.

At the end of the day, Drazhar and Incubi are good fun, they will end anything they come into contact with, they're just fragile and expensive.

I keep meaning to use mine more ('course, K'm working on Tau and Chaos atm...) but having just aqcquired half a dozen more incubi, I can run 3 squads, so may fire up the old Raiders and give them a game or 3.

somerandomdude wrote:
The biggest problem for me is that he can only join Incubi. Taking a very strong AP 2 unit and giving them a very strong AP 2 HQ is not my cup of tea. I'd rather spread out the pain.

This.

And that also means that the unit can't take grenades unless you take another character.

If Drazhar could join any unit, I think you'd see him taken more often.

 Exergy wrote:
he costs too much and is a melee character. doing melee isnt where it is at anymore.

next is the lack of a ++ save. Sure he can shrug off the first powerfist but what about two or three?

next there is the wording on his darting strike, he can get challenged and then he cant dance around like he use to

Though true but puting him in with a unit of incubi as a meat shield, with ap2 power weapons that do not attack at I1 is beneficial. Oh I moved my raider 6", deboarded my incubi team 6", and assaulted and hit before you have much chance.
He is basically a terminator with no ++ save, minus his meat shield. And yes, he is worth the points. He is worth more than Lilith now in 6th. Put him with a team of 9 incubi with a barebones klaivex in a raider and watch your enemy almost $hit themself. Get it across field ASAP. Team of trueborn in a venom with disentegrators and cannons on it. With troops being the big focus in this edition not vehicles; yes, vehicles got a large buff; you want to load out dcannons S5 AP2 3shot vs S8 AP2 1shot. Don't waste points on sybarites. Especially if you are keeping kabalites BF as objective holders. And Reavers jetbikers will win you games a fleet of nine will eat troops even in cover.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
The problem with drazhar is that he is huge points for just a good melee character, not the best, but good, but doesn't influence the rest of the army in any way, an archon is much cheaper and has an invulnerable save

Well, he makes one unit of Incubbi fearless, so that's not entirely true. Also, he has a permanent 2+ save and eternal warrior, that tends to go a lot further then the Shadow Field, especially because most things in the game that can break a 2+ save are dead by the time they even think about striking him.

In the modern day of challenges, with murderous assault and onslaught, their is a very short list of ICs that can even hope to touch Drazhar in CC. I guess some MC's might be a challenge (no pun intended!), but I can't think of too many IC's that can handle him. Mephy would get humiliated. Anyway, I think you're selling him a bit short by saying he's "just a good melee character," as he's on the short list of the best melee characters in the game.

the problem is that while he puts out a good number of wounds, many of them will be saved. Any CC beastick is gonna be running a 4++ or 3++. Try him against Abbadon or Lysander and see what happens. Sure he goes first, but he likely wont be standing at the end of the day. Even just a modest SM commander with storm shield and fist is going to be tough. A khorne lord with axe of blind fury, sigil, and jugger will wreck him. Even an ork warboss has a ++ save with cybork.

Drazhar with 9 incubi is nearly 500 points wrapped up in an AV 10, open-topped vehicle that will (on average) lose 2-3 guys when (and I don't mean if, I mean when) it explodes.

T3 and a 3+ isn't exactly durable. Ask the sisters of battle. Not to mention that this unit is going to overkill anything it touches in such a spectacular fashion that it will never have the luxury of a shooting phase where it's not taking tons of fire.

I'd have no worries at all if Drazhar could hide in combat all game. None at all. He's liable to punk any power fist or thunder hammer out there, regardless of delivery mechanism, before it can even touch him. Even if it does touch him, he's got eternal warrior and is probably only going to suffer a single wound in return. But then he's killed the enemy, and while he's smugly patting himself on the ass, those guys with the lascannons/meltaguns/plasma gun/some other easily spammable AP 2 weapon that wounds on a 2+ will be shooting him right where it hurts: the ego.

Do you really want to spend 230 points just to kill one unit and then hope you pass all eighty-six of your 5+ cover saves?

God no.

Drazhar is good at one thing and one thing only, killing stuff. Which, yes, he's really good at it, but in the end, that's all he can do. He's a one trick pony that contributes absolutely nothing to your list. He does not buff your troops, he does not give you some sort of strategic reroll, worse still, he is actually a detriment to your list. He costs more than a tricked out Wych or Incubi squad with transport and yet is but a single model. He needs an escort and a ride to get across the board, so now you're building your list just to make this one model marginally useful. This is a running theme with many of the Dark Eldar HQ choices, sadly.

If you're looking at when with them inside, you're not playing agressively enough with them.

It's like my grots/wracks, they deploy out of sight, forcing the opponent to move forward to try and see me, then head at breakneck speed straight to the enemies doorstep, liquifier them then into combat.

This alone is why I want a Fortress of Redemption - deployable cover I can hide my entire army behin!? Yes please!

The list I plan on running with drazhar also includes 2 beast squads. So my intention is to keep drazhars unit out of the fray at first while the beasts do my innitial cc bidding. From my experience's in the past the way beasts and incubi compliment eachother is a work of art. Beasts charge in and ware down the enemy while the incubi lurk patiently, then after a turn or two the incubi strike and finish off whats left in before the enemy knows what hits him.

I had an experience exactly like this in 5th, when my large beast squad clashed with a fully decked out paladin squad lead by draigo, and for those of you who dont know paladins were by far the best cc unit in 5th in both killiness and survivability and draigo was perhaps the best cc IC in 5th so dualing a squad containing both was a near death wish, but anyways back to my story. So about two turns go by, and thanks to the beasts survivability they were still hanging on and actually managed to dish out a considerable amount of wounds, but it was still clear that they were going to lose. That is until a small 4 to 5 man squad of incubi came to their rescue and totally wiped out the entire squad including draigo before they were able to even attack back!

The morale of the story is dont smoke krak! and yes, incubi do take a certain amount of finess, but isnt that the hole point of playing dark eldar to begin with :/

Anyways back to my list. The reason i plan on including drazhar is really his ability to be by himself, say both of my beast squads need some help finishing off their opponents (since their smaller than the one above). The fact that drazhar is tough and killy enough and actually thrives more being on his own is huge, as then I could send the incubi to finish off one unit and drazhar to the other, and both will most likely be gaining a pain token too, so even though they'll be on foot they should have a decent chance of survival. Plus you could use the beasts as meat shields too.

Do you really want to spend 230 points just to kill one unit and then hope you pass all eighty-six of your 5+ cover saves?

That seems like a slight over exaggeration. So they are going to dedicate all their anti vehicle to killing Drazhar instead of your Ravagers/Raiders/Venoms? Sweet! That should be an easy win.

the problem is that while he puts out a good number of wounds, many of them will be saved. Any CC beastick is gonna be running a 4++ or 3++. Try him against Abbadon or Lysander and see what happens. Sure he goes first, but he likely wont be standing at the end of the day. Even just a modest SM commander with storm shield and fist is going to be tough. A khorne lord with axe of blind fury, sigil, and jugger will wreck him. Even an ork warboss has a ++ save with cybork.

I said the short list, and yes, you named the rest of that short list. Drazhar could easily land 4 or 5 wounds on any of those characters, so the 5++ have a pretty good chance of dying before striking and even the 4++ and 3++ are going to be about half dead. Lysander, for instance, is certainly no guarantee hitting on 4+ to get enough wounds to kill Draz in one round, and then he's going to die the next round. Abbadon has to use Drachyan, which means rolling the Demon weapon and possible getting screwed, and Abbadon isn't exactly cheap either. Plus, I'm pretty sure Abbadon only has the 5++, it's not exactly out of this world to suggest he might not get to strike at all.

Anyway, yes, anything with AP2 and a 3++ could kill him, but if you ran some Monte Carlo I think you would see it's definitely not a sure thing on either side. And, all of those characters cost in the neighborhood of what he costs. Not sure what the point of this whole line of thinking is. Dedicated CC beat sticks beat up on each other good?

A little facetious, yes.

But realistically, it takes 4 hits with any AP 2 weapon to kill Drazhar. Provided he has cover.

That's one double-tapping plasmavet squad's worth of firepower.

He's easier to kill than any comparable unit in another codex thanks to his lack of a ++ save. He dies to massed firepower, same as they do, and has no method of dealing with low AP weaponry. Not to mention, every idea of how to use him has him enduring a round of shooting. Sit behind LoS blocking terrain for the first turn, zoom across the battlefield and then disembark on your turn 2.

Well that's fine and dandy, if you expect your 500~ point death star to not attract at least an equal value of shooting. Which is a very silly assumption to make. That paper plane is going to go down and then the contents are going to get shot too, and then, if they survive, they might charge something that got close enough to double-tap, and then it's another turn of shooting for them to suffer after they evaporate that far less expensive unit.

Now I could see Drazhar being shot at the enemy like a missile in a transport he stole from someone else, but that's still... just not going to work.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

the problem is that while he puts out a good number of wounds, many of them will be saved. Any CC beastick is gonna be running a 4++ or 3++. Try him against Abbadon or Lysander and see what happens. Sure he goes first, but he likely wont be standing at the end of the day. Even just a modest SM commander with storm shield and fist is going to be tough. A khorne lord with axe of blind fury, sigil, and jugger will wreck him. Even an ork warboss has a ++ save with cybork.

I said the short list, and yes, you named the rest of that short list. Drazhar could easily land 4 or 5 wounds on any of those characters, so the 5++ have a pretty good chance of dying before striking and even the 4++ and 3++ are going to be about half dead. Lysander, for instance, is certainly no guarantee hitting on 4+ to get enough wounds to kill Draz in one round, and then he's going to die the next round. Abbadon has to use Drachyan, which means rolling the Demon weapon and possible getting screwed, and Abbadon isn't exactly cheap either. Plus, I'm pretty sure Abbadon only has the 5++, it's not exactly out of this world to suggest he might not get to strike at all.

Anyway, yes, anything with AP2 and a 3++ could kill him, but if you ran some Monte Carlo I think you would see it's definitely not a sure thing on either side. And, all of those characters cost in the neighborhood of what he costs. Not sure what the point of this whole line of thinking is. Dedicated CC beat sticks beat up on each other good?

abby has a 4++, and he costs 35 points more than drazhar. He is also WS7 so lower chance for Drazhar to hit.
Lysander will probably live 3 rounds with his 4 wounds. I find drazhar is pretty lucky to be doing more than 3 wounds and with the 3++ 2/3 of them are saved.

Surely a 5++ isnt going to autowin, but for half drazhar's cost you can have a warboss or a khornelord on jugger who have a pretty good chance.

I haven't used Drazhar, but I do know he's fundamentally a Phoenix Lord for the Incubi, and I can tell you that I don't know if he's going to measure up to my good experiences with Karandras and Maugan Ra; Karandras gets to Infiltrate along with a Striking Scorpion unit and grants them Stealth, meaning he gets to pick and choose who he gets into CC with and he gets to survive long enough to get there, and Maugan Ra is more of a shooty person (5 S6 Rending shots at 36" and BS7), so neither of them are really hampered by their lack of an Invulnerable save; Drazhar is an up-front beatstick that relies on a transport to get him where he's needed, meaning he's versatile as long as his vehicle isn't popped.

I'm thinking Drazhar follows the normal Dark Eldar principles of using your mobility to ensure you don't fight the enemy where they're strong; don't use him to chop up high-WS powerfist people, you want to shoot high-WS powerfist people, use him to chop up things that have a hard time killing him.